Tuesday, September 30, 2014

[Electric Boats] Solar panels on the boat deck: what are safe voltage level?

 

Hi!
What is safe voltage level for solar panels mounted in the "traffic zone" on a boat deck? ...Kids playing around with wet hands...

12-20V? 
Or higher?

I am planning a ~1kW array to power electric propulsion (120V motor)

What are your opinions/experiences?

Bendik

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Posted by: Bendik Vignes <bendik.vignes@yahoo.com>
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Sunday, September 28, 2014

Re: [Electric Boats] Lower end on an Outboard Conversion -- mark F

 

Exactly, Mark that is the way to do them.  I did mine that way too, because the water pump is in the power head.  That motor gets hot without a water cooling added on from the ( thanks to Johnson for that one ) factory, for a few bucks more, of course.  I will be back in the water ASAP, I want to test the amp difference between the old control board , and the new one – if any.   I changed for sound reduction, if any, as mine is a  5 KV model, but the factory wants to have my data, just in case some are different.  
 
I think the sound has decreased since installation, or I got used to it.   The older ones probably like Myles has, may not have as much noise, simply because the whole install is different, motor size, mounting, wiring, and transom material ( mine is on an aluminum bracket ) or other factor we may never know.
 
later, ----------  Cal
 
 
 
 
 
Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2014 10:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Lower end on an Outboard Conversion
 
 

 
I have  my outboard fixed in forward and switch motor direction via relays.
I took the leg apart and removed the impellor on the water pump.
If the impellor is still on the leg I think you would have issues.
It causes alot of drag and would not like to go backwards.

I also run at fairly low amps, so i have my controller mounted in the back of the boat(dry area), so i don't have cooling issues in the confined area under the motor cover.

sorry about previous reply with small fonts

mark
 

From: "John Acord jcacord@gmail.com [electricboats]" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2014 7:58 PM
Subject: [Electric Boats] Lower end on an Outboard Conversion
 
 
I am just starting my outboard conversion and, while things are apart, have a question about forward/reverse. 

Is it OK to fix the lower end in one direction, forward for example, and reverse the motor for direction change?

My preference is to fix the lower end in forward and reverse with the motor direction.  But I am not sure how well the lower end will hold up with that operation.
 
John

--
Flatwater Electronics
www.flatwaterfarm.com
"Neurosurgery for computer looms."


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Posted by: "cal" <h20dragon@centurytel.net>
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Saturday, September 27, 2014

Re: [Electric Boats] Lower end on an Outboard Conversion

 


I have  my outboard fixed in forward and switch motor direction via relays.
I took the leg apart and removed the impellor on the water pump.
If the impellor is still on the leg I think you would have issues.
It causes alot of drag and would not like to go backwards.

 I also run at fairly low amps, so i have my controller mounted in the back of the boat(dry area), so i don't have cooling issues in the confined area under the motor cover.

sorry about previous reply with small fonts

mark


From: "John Acord jcacord@gmail.com [electricboats]" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2014 7:58 PM
Subject: [Electric Boats] Lower end on an Outboard Conversion

 
I am just starting my outboard conversion and, while things are apart, have a question about forward/reverse. 

Is it OK to fix the lower end in one direction, forward for example, and reverse the motor for direction change?

My preference is to fix the lower end in forward and reverse with the motor direction.  But I am not sure how well the lower end will hold up with that operation.

John

--
Flatwater Electronics
www.flatwaterfarm.com
"Neurosurgery for computer looms."


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Posted by: Mark F <mark.internet@yahoo.ca>
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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Printed motors

 

"Now if someone can figure out how to "print" flat wire into concentric circles..."...snip

John: Try "printed" circuit boards.  It's well understood technology, and it's reasonably inexpensive.  If you like, draw the copper pattern for me on a napkin or whatever, with dimensions, and I will send you files that a board house can fab for you. (I've laid out circuit boards professionally) It's even possible to get a "flexible"...

Dave
dyamakuchi@yahoo.com


On Tuesday, September 23, 2014 1:33 PM, "John Acord jcacord@gmail.com [electricboats]" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 
That's pretty neat.  Do you get better locational placement by imbedding the magnets/sensors during "printing" the housing?

Now if someone can figure out how to "print" flat wire into concentric circles think of how much flux density you could get!

John

--
Flatwater Electronics
www.flatwaterfarm.com
"Neurosurgery for computer looms."


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Posted by: Dave Yamakuchi <dyamakuchi@yahoo.com>
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[Electric Boats] Main Fuses - Good notes, John

 

I agree John, the main fuses are best inside the power head where you can see them, coupled to the motor leads directly, from there it goes to the controller, where the factory fuse is.  There is also an automatic circuit breaker with the setup.  The factory doesn't mention that part very well, but it can save problems, and breaks before the main override breaker – or my three in fact.  When the voltage gets too low that is the cut out switch.   Well protected from both low or high voltage by the one setup that way, can change motors if needed in a few minutes for testing in my case.
 
I may have damaged one charger by putting it inside the battery box, not doing that again.  Now I have two ways to charge, plus the long term maintainer I also do sales for.   In EV stuff you need to know and have balanced systems for long term life.  You and I know that, but some others are just getting what looks lowest cost, with some risk.  I will have a talk with my dist. here Monday if possible, get delivery locations ironed out, or shipping set up for most future delivery locations.
 
Later, ------   Cal
 
Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2014 9:37 AM
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Batteries, A note on Service Life
 
 

As long as you are going to change fuse holders and selecting a quality fuse holder, why not get them up out of the battery compartment?  It's a rather harsh environment generally.

For many years I used the old fashioned glass fuses and holders in a marine environment.  Never had any problems with contacts even on the higher current fuses.  I have now gone to auto type blade fuses and they seem to perform well.  The only fuse I ever used inside the battery compartment was the 300A bolt down fuse in the main battery feed.

Depending on where you mount your battery charger, which seems to me should be outside of the battery box, having all the fuses there makes a lot of sense.  In reality I feel the fuses should have been in proper fuse holders on the charger.

John

--
Flatwater Electronics
www.flatwaterfarm.com
"Neurosurgery for computer looms."

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Posted by: "cal" <h20dragon@centurytel.net>
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[Electric Boats] Re: Batteries, A note on Service Life

 

As long as you are going to change fuse holders and selecting a quality fuse holder, why not get them up out of the battery compartment?  It's a rather harsh environment generally.

For many years I used the old fashioned glass fuses and holders in a marine environment.  Never had any problems with contacts even on the higher current fuses.  I have now gone to auto type blade fuses and they seem to perform well.  The only fuse I ever used inside the battery compartment was the 300A bolt down fuse in the main battery feed.

Depending on where you mount your battery charger, which seems to me should be outside of the battery box, having all the fuses there makes a lot of sense.  In reality I feel the fuses should have been in proper fuse holders on the charger.

John

--
Flatwater Electronics
www.flatwaterfarm.com
"Neurosurgery for computer looms."

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Posted by: John Acord <jcacord@gmail.com>
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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Batteries, A note on Service Life

 

Arby:

Definitely going to check the other fuses and connections. What brand of dielectric grease do you use? 

Mike
http://biankablog.blogspot.com



On Saturday, September 27, 2014 10:24 AM, "Arby Bernt arbybernt@yahoo.com [electricboats]" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 
DualPro chargers have nice fuse holders, but their fuses seem to want for quality...
I just installed four 6a chargers with multiple outputs (120vdc battery string). One charger wouldn't come up, the cheeze fuse being the culprit. One failure is often the shot-across-the-bow, so I replaced every fuse, adding copious dielectric grease in the process. 

Be Well,
Arby

On Sep 26, 2014, at 8:00 AM, "Mike biankablog@verizon.net [electricboats]" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 
 One of the nice things about the Dual Pro Quad charger I use to finish charging my 48 volt AGM bank it has temperature probes in the charging leads on each battery in the string. So far all batteries in the string have been behaving themselves for seven years.  Though I did have a little reminder recently that sometimes little things in the charging circuit can make it look like you have major battery issue too.  http://biankablog.blogspot.com/2014/09/sometimes-its-little-things.html
I was glad I had my helm mounted instrumentation panel to do a quick check to verify the battery was charged and did not have to even pull out a DVM to narrow the problem to a bad fuse connection in the charger lead.

Mike


On Thursday, September 25, 2014 10:59 PM, "John Acord jcacord@gmail.com [electricboats]" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 
I would second what Cal said, that it is not a good practice to mix different aged batteries in a series string.  They won't share the current equally, the newer batteries will be stressed with greater current and the older batteries will pull the total voltage of the string down causing more voltage drop on the good batteries. 

We are pretty aware of the need to monitor battery voltage.  What we do not do so much is monitor battery temperature.  Batteries getting hot are a symptom of problems and should be monitored. 

A lot of us are using lead acid batteries.  For good battery life, and to avoid thermal runaway, the charge voltage should be adjusted for battery temperature.  Not the ambient temperature (although that will affect battery temperature) but by putting a temperature sensor on the battery terminal which is the closest you can measure to core temp.  I have not studied it but suspect the same conditions apply to discharge.  With the operating currents of our boat motors it might be something to look into.  But at least sensors on the batteries for an overtemp alarm would be appropriate.

Temperature sensors are cheap and easy to wire up for an alarm.  I'll draw a circuit and post it in the files section for those interested.

John

--
Flatwater Electronics
www.flatwaterfarm.com
"Neurosurgery for computer looms."




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Posted by: Mike <biankablog@verizon.net>
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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Batteries, A note on Service Life

 

DualPro chargers have nice fuse holders, but their fuses seem to want for quality...
I just installed four 6a chargers with multiple outputs (120vdc battery string). One charger wouldn't come up, the cheeze fuse being the culprit. One failure is often the shot-across-the-bow, so I replaced every fuse, adding copious dielectric grease in the process. 

Be Well,
Arby

On Sep 26, 2014, at 8:00 AM, "Mike biankablog@verizon.net [electricboats]" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

 One of the nice things about the Dual Pro Quad charger I use to finish charging my 48 volt AGM bank it has temperature probes in the charging leads on each battery in the string. So far all batteries in the string have been behaving themselves for seven years.  Though I did have a little reminder recently that sometimes little things in the charging circuit can make it look like you have major battery issue too.  http://biankablog.blogspot.com/2014/09/sometimes-its-little-things.html
I was glad I had my helm mounted instrumentation panel to do a quick check to verify the battery was charged and did not have to even pull out a DVM to narrow the problem to a bad fuse connection in the charger lead.

Mike


On Thursday, September 25, 2014 10:59 PM, "John Acord jcacord@gmail.com [electricboats]" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 
I would second what Cal said, that it is not a good practice to mix different aged batteries in a series string.  They won't share the current equally, the newer batteries will be stressed with greater current and the older batteries will pull the total voltage of the string down causing more voltage drop on the good batteries. 

We are pretty aware of the need to monitor battery voltage.  What we do not do so much is monitor battery temperature.  Batteries getting hot are a symptom of problems and should be monitored. 

A lot of us are using lead acid batteries.  For good battery life, and to avoid thermal runaway, the charge voltage should be adjusted for battery temperature.  Not the ambient temperature (although that will affect battery temperature) but by putting a temperature sensor on the battery terminal which is the closest you can measure to core temp.  I have not studied it but suspect the same conditions apply to discharge.  With the operating currents of our boat motors it might be something to look into.  But at least sensors on the batteries for an overtemp alarm would be appropriate.

Temperature sensors are cheap and easy to wire up for an alarm.  I'll draw a circuit and post it in the files section for those interested.

John

--
Flatwater Electronics
www.flatwaterfarm.com
"Neurosurgery for computer looms."


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Posted by: Arby Bernt <arbybernt@yahoo.com>
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Friday, September 26, 2014

Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Lower end on an Outboard

 

Figured that, now you have less shaft heat and friction -- along with no !!#&* pump impeller to look after.    hah,  ----  Cal
 
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2014 6:31 PM
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Lower end on an Outboard
 
 

Got the power head off and was surprised at how much effort it took to turn the drive shaft.  Removed the water pump impeller and now it turns quite freely!

Thanks to all for the advice.
 
John

--
Flatwater Electronics
www.flatwaterfarm.com
"Neurosurgery for computer looms."

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Posted by: "cal" <h20dragon@centurytel.net>
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[Electric Boats] Re: Just a Note on electric lower units

 

I think I will spend some time with thoughts on your setup, though I have not had experience with your specific boat.  However as I owned and sailed many years from Marina Del Rey, tripped to Catalina, Channel islands to San Diego, Wooden Hull owners assn. racing my Mc Innes (wood) – Coaster 25 cutter, Windsong, a full keel wood cutter, before that a Cal 27 sail # 45 as a half ton racer which I put a four ft. wide crack just aft of the main fin.  Broke it in 20 ft. swells off point Huenemi racing and darn near went down, cabin cushions floating at the dock.
 
Plus several more smaller trailer boats, still have four now in fact.   I have a bit of thoughts on the Spray – and have a Bruce Roberts book on his boats in general.  The Spray offshore 40 is among them, an older book probably.  I am familiar with Choi Lee 32 's, sailed on the PC class "Pirate", Kettenberg 40 s' and more.  Age slows you down, so not as comfy on water as I used to be, but still build and boat constantly when I'm not on my motorcycle. 
 
You really might consider the drag under sail of two pods.  Check the sailing on the Westerly  (British) series of twin keelers, they lose too much windward ability -  as twin keels or twin props would.   As a first thought, you will lose windward ability, and overall speed under sail especially to windward, with motors heeled over.  Clean tacking would be non existent, mostly.   Potential for damage from debris, kelp hang up under the hull, and general reduced performance.  Using copper in any paint on aluminum, is a recipe for disaster, salt water makes any two dis-similar metals into junk.  There are special non metallic paints that work better.  The prop should be centered behind the keel for the reason that the keel protects it, any submerged log or piling could tear those pods off and is basically unsafe.
 
An example, check your California marina Del Rey coastal chart, forgot the number but --- just south of MDR and Ballona creek, Manhattan beach ok ?   look at the pipe line marked as outflow, that goes out over 400 yards – covered by 4 ft. at mean low tide, sometimes lower.  A buddy sailed over that, and got a broken arm, pitched down the companion way, ouch !!  But wait, the prop shaft was bent and stuck so he called the coast guard Manhattan beach as MDR was tied to another job.  The newish crew ran over the same pipe like at 40 mph trying to get to his Kettenburg  K-40, which is about six ft draft = or-  ok !!   The coasties lost both shafts ripped out of the hull and damn near sank on the spot.  The navy got a call and flew / dropped more equipment to clean up the mess.  Oh, yeah put a big dent in the lead keel, sprung keel bolts and opened seams, about two grand to fix in 1960 something.
 
I have run over stuff, boat parts, deck cargo, logs, and more over 20 years sailing there.  Do yourself a favor, electric is great, there are ways to get the electric power you need and keep the prop protected as it needs to be.  I won't go into that here, because it is equipment that is originally for other uses, but would work very well and safely for your larger weight sailing hull application, even with pods by the way.   However, as that is a big boat, and can use the battery pack with the gen set you need anyhow, for long term power.  There are, however rudder designs that might do what you want with way less hassle.  Designs from aircraft wing symmetrical sections that could be adapted to fit - from articles I have read.
 
I don't think I would open myself up to do something that will not be of benefit to a safe application.  I said I would not hurt another persons dreams, but in retrospect, this is not a safe way to go, more expensive to make work, and offers not enough advantage over the regular way.   On a deep keel boat, two props are more pain than pleasure, and will not turn or reverse like a power boat.  Hull speed is pretty finite too, so no speed advantage either.
 
Sorry if this bothers your ideas, but please think about renting, or borrowing twin small 12 volt Minn Kotas, and some friends say  20 / 27 ft sail boat with a swing keel, at a longish angle.   A 2 by 8 in. board across the gunnels about where the pods would hang with the two motors on it as a "mock up".   When in light wind, check your GPS, drop the motors down, and do the math, half knot drag == maybe over twice that on a big boat, then try to steer it with the keel 3/4 down.  The full keel will be a lot more "pod" and prop drag under sail.  The further forward the less steering force you have, so don't do this close to anything.    A  trial horse of what you want, and a good cheap way to test it out.
 
Please don't let me rain on your parade, if you do this, and it works well, I will be very happy for you, sincerely !!        All the best, ----  Cal
  
 
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2014 5:56 PM
To: cal
Subject: Re: Just a Note on electric lower units
 
Thanks Cal, Thease are picture of my boat that I am building. The type of hull is a 37ft Bruce Roberts Spray sailboat, fair amount of curve but this is a new construction so modification is easy at this point. it is planned to be in saltwater for extended periods of time. thinking of painting everything below the waterline with Epoxy Copper paint. I'm thinking that two of these pods would be enough (say 5Kw each) on either side of the Keel and just in front of the rudder. This would provide for excellent maneuverability which would come from a large rudder and two wheels that can be reveresed during dockin manuvers.
please send me pictures if you have them of the modifications your local shop did?

Sal
Paso Robles, CA
 

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Posted by: "cal" <h20dragon@centurytel.net>
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