Monday, February 28, 2011

[Electric Boats] Re: Rewiring DC electric system and Grounding

 



I looked over the diagram and I think I understand it (to an extent). First I have no ground from shore power. I have no other grounding, other than return to negative terminal. I have been reading Nigel Calder "Boat Owner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual" 2nd edition. In this book it stressed the importance of keeping Insulated negative back to negative terminal of battery to reduce the chance of stray current. The AC is not connected to DC in any matter now since there is no common ground connection. Therefore, the ground fault protection from the dock is what is relied on. I have not noticed any stray current around the boat nor any galvanic corrosion. Lastly, this will be the 4th season with this motor/electrical setup (Mark thanks for keeping me in check, my how time goes by). It would be great to hear how others have their boats wired for ground.

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <boat_works@...> wrote:
>
> Well, since nobody else has taken the bait, I gave it a go. Unfortunately you have to work with my handwriting which has never been particularly legible...
>
> Look for "AC DC wiring" in the files section (in a few minutes).
> -Tom
>
> --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "acsarfkram" <acsarfkram@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Brian,
> >
> > Good question. I'll be interested to see some responses.
> >
> > 5 years? I thought we installed around the same time 4/08.
> >
> > Mark
> > Santa Cruz
> >
> > --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Holt" <drmsudo@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I am replacing the electric panel on my aged ericson 27. I replaced the old A4 5 years ago with an electric. In removing the old motor, I lost my common ground to the engine. In place I bolted a bus bar that is by the old motor compartment and have used this. I have not had any problems so far. The boat is in fresh water and I have never had corrosion issues or noticed stray electric current around the boat. Now that I am replacing the panel I am looking to clean up the old wiring. I will also be adding a few things (ie. stereo, gps) and want to ensure that the boat and its wiring are up to par. I would like to hear some ideas or examples of working wiring systems and how they are grounded for DC house, electric motor, and shore power. Thanks for any and all that can help me out.
> > >
> >
>

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[Electric Boats] Re: Rewiring DC electric system and Grounding

 

Well, since nobody else has taken the bait, I gave it a go. Unfortunately you have to work with my handwriting which has never been particularly legible...

Look for "AC DC wiring" in the files section (in a few minutes).
-Tom

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "acsarfkram" <acsarfkram@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Brian,
>
> Good question. I'll be interested to see some responses.
>
> 5 years? I thought we installed around the same time 4/08.
>
> Mark
> Santa Cruz
>
> --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Holt" <drmsudo@> wrote:
> >
> > I am replacing the electric panel on my aged ericson 27. I replaced the old A4 5 years ago with an electric. In removing the old motor, I lost my common ground to the engine. In place I bolted a bus bar that is by the old motor compartment and have used this. I have not had any problems so far. The boat is in fresh water and I have never had corrosion issues or noticed stray electric current around the boat. Now that I am replacing the panel I am looking to clean up the old wiring. I will also be adding a few things (ie. stereo, gps) and want to ensure that the boat and its wiring are up to par. I would like to hear some ideas or examples of working wiring systems and how they are grounded for DC house, electric motor, and shore power. Thanks for any and all that can help me out.
> >
>

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[Electric Boats] Re: Turnigy Watt Meter

 

I've been getting some sailing/motoring in with the Turnigy Watt Meter installed. It's great having the data that the meter provides right at the helm.

I read on another E-propulsion site that a useful function of the watt meter is the volt to current ratio. While motoring if you back off of the throttle and watch the voltage recover you can find a sweet spot with minimum current draw and max voltage. I know this basic knowledge for many here but it's really apparent watching the voltage react to the current draw on a micro scale with the watt meter right in front of me.

Mark
Santa Cruz

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "acsarfkram" <acsarfkram@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks Denny.
>
> --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "dennis wolfe" <dwolfe@> wrote:
> >
> > Mark,
> >
> > Color me jealous - it was 3F here in Michigan this morning. I'd have to chop a hole in the ice to launch a boat.
> >
> > You different voltages under load are likely due to the resistance of the power wires if the Packtracker is connected to the battery and the Watt meter is getting its voltage signal at the shunt near the motor. Sounds normal.
> >
> > Denny
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: acsarfkram
> > To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 7:43 PM
> > Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Turnigy Watt Meter
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Denny,
> >
> > I wish I was the clever one, Jeremy over at the Endless-Sphere website came up with that modification. You can see it here; http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=21976
> > He used two of the modified meters on E-Boats.
> >
> > That's great - doubling the range on the Minn Kota.
> >
> > I look forward to having a meter right at the helm. I took the boat out today to check out the watt meter (it had nothing to do with the clear skies and warm temps :-). The Turnigy Watt Meter monitors the motor current and voltage the PakTrakr reads the battery's current and voltage. I noticed that the voltage at the motor is lower by a few 1/10's of a volt than the battery voltage under load. Does that sound normal? Once the motor was off for a while they were the same. I've heard battery loads and motor loads are different.
> >
> > Next I want to install a switch so I can see regen numbers.
> >
> > Mark
> > Santa Cruz
> >
> > --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "dennis wolfe" <dwolfe@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Mark.
> > >
> > > I would set the speed control to draw a fixed number of watts and then run for 30 seconds and note the GPS average speed for the period. With cheapo $3 RC model props I could try lots of different sizes. Most speed for least watts = best prop.
> > >
> > > Bottom line, a 34# thrust MK trolling motor with a 10 x 6 airplane prop, a PWM controller meant for a model car and a fairing around the motor tube I more than doubled the range over the stock motor clamped to the hull.
> > >
> > > This set-up will push my 18', 450# sailboat 4 mph for 10 miles on one Gp 24 12v AGM battery plus I have juice for the electric bilge pump and GPS.
> > >
> > > Your use of the external shunt is very clever - for $60 you have as much function as a $200 Link 10.
> > >
> > > Denny
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: acsarfkram
> > > To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 2:16 PM
> > > Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Turnigy Watt Meter
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Denny,
> > >
> > > The Turnigy is a little different - its rated at max amps of 130 the Watts Up is lower. That said I removed the shunt in the unit and installed a beefier shunt remotely. That way I could hard-wire(no connectors)and use "thin" wires running to the helm.
> > >
> > > What was your process when you were using the Watts Up for prop sizing?
> > >
> > > Mark
> > > Santa Cruz
> > >
> > > --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "dennis wolfe" <dwolfe@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > This same unit is sold as a "Watts Up" meter. I have one and it was invaluable for evaluating different props on my sailboat drive. Be sure to use quality connectors, though. I first used the flat spade connectors from the auto parts store and they heated up noticeably. The gold plated bullet connectors used in the RC world work much better.
> > > >
> > > > There are a lot of interesting products in the electric RC hobby - including motors and controllers that can propel a 20 lb. plane straight up.
> > > >
> > > > Denny Wolfe
> > > > www.wolfEboats.com
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: acsarfkram
> > > > To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:39 PM
> > > > Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Turnigy Watt Meter
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I finished the Turnigy Watt Meter modification today. It works great so far. now I have amp draw, voltage, watts and some other information at the helm. It mounts next to the compass and is held in place with a nylon wedge and Velcro. When not in use it is covered under the compass cover. I'll add some photos to the Lotus Flower folder.
> > > >
> > > > Turnigy Watt Meter $30, Bogart shunt $30, misc. wiring and connectors $40, time scratching head - priceless.
> > > >
> > > > Mark
> > > > Santa Cruz
> > > >
> > > > --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "acsarfkram" <acsarfkram@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I stumbled on this inexpensive watt meter;
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=10080
> > > > >
> > > > > and ended up at this E Propulsion website;
> > > > >
> > > > > http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=21976
> > > > >
> > > > > while researching installing it at the helm. The issue is that the shunt is mounted inside the unit so you have the mount it near the batteries or run heavy wire to the helm. I ended up ordering a shunt;
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.bogartengineering.com/sites/default/files/images/high-res/100A-100mV_shunt.jpg
> > > > >
> > > > > and plan to locate that near the batteries and running small gauge wire to the helm. I know I could spend more and have a more robust setup but this gives me the tinkering fix that I have been missing lately :-)
> > > > >
> > > > > Mark
> > > > > Santa Cruz
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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Re: [Electric Boats] Schematic or diagram of system help

 

I agree Pierre. The Samlex looks like a good unit, but it wouldn't be my first choice for the reasons you mention.
What I'd like to see is a compact, waterproof, bulletproof, isolated output multi-channel smart charger that can handle the normal battery management tasks plus stand up to continuous motoring without it's "smart" features being confused by the motor load, and it should work without operator intervention.
There are so many chargers on the market I wouldn't be surprised if such a unit already exists.
Jim

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "qc_ca_666" <qc_ca_666@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> > http://www.chargingchargers.com/tutorials/power-supplies.html
>
> They are often referring to the Samlex unit as their best charger when used as a power supply. Unfortunately, the Samlex (SEC1215, SEC1230, and SEC1245) are only single bank 12 volt chargers (no multi-bank, no 48 volts). Hence, you need 1 charger per battery, which ends up being expensive and bulky. Also note that the Samlex are not sealed units, so their "marine" rating is questionable.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre
>

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RE: [Electric Boats] How many watts?

 

With components in hand or on the way, you should be able to tell us the answer to this question by going for a test cruise.

It doesn’t really tell us much to say that your pontoon boat is lightly loaded, while the motor is rated for a max. of 28amps & 24v.  Stating “recharge my batteries while not in use and gone from the 110v for a few days” sends mixed messages and begs other questions.  If the boat’s not in use and away for a few days, does it really have 3-5 days to sit and charge by solar without you drawing power from it?  Duty cycle is important here.  Say you have 100ah of battery capacity---with summertime and at least a 4hr solar day, you could charge fully depleted batteries up with panels that delivered an average of 25amps into 24v, or 600watts.  But if you had 3 days to recharge the batteries and didn’t draw them down in the meantime, only 200watts would do it.  And if you really only drew the batteries down 50%, a 3-day recharge would only require 100watts average power.

 

Scenarios are important.  Noone can fill in these blanks for you without them.

What are your expectations?  What are your constraints?

 

We really need something like “oh, I want to be able to cruise out to my tiny little island that draws 20amps continuous from my cute little MinnKota and allows me to get to the tiny little island in any scenario in 2 hrs.  I plan to sit there in my beach chair and otherwise not motor that pontoon boat for 3 days and the boat will sit there in the sun the whole time.  After 3 days, I want to cruise back with a full battery pack.  This will be July in Florida and no provision for cloudcover is necessary for this analysis.  Area available for solar panels on my awesome catamaran is 6 sq-meters.  My budget is limited to $500 for solar panels, mounts and charge controller.”

 

In this scenario, you’d draw down your batteries about 40 a-h and with 3 days to recharge with probably 5-hrs effective solar energy, you need under 3-amps of charge current average for 5hrs daily.  Into 24v, that requires 72watts of power.  You could buy 2 surplus 50-watt panels (Siemens, Sanyo, etc.) that no one uses any longer for probably $3/watt…i.e. about $300.  Since you went for 100watts when you needed but 72watts, you might be able to ditch the charge controller if the panels each output near max power at 24v---but that’s not too likely as the 50watt panels were typically 17v @ 3amp…in that case, you’d expect about 12v @3amp, or 36v per panel---which really would meet your needs anyway.  But you are giving up about 30% of the peak power these panels can produce.  The beauty of this scenario is 2 panels on a catamaran might look cooler than 1 panel and you could locate 1 over each pontoon.  You could also try to buy a cheap charge controller to either boost the parallel output of these 2 panels to 24v, or, putting them instead in series, you could put a buck converter in place that semi-optimally charges the batteries more efficiently.  Either way, that converter might cost a significant portion of your panel cost.

 

Anyway, you need to do a test run with your pontoon boat, then do analysis.  It isn’t hard.

 

In case this helps-

 

-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.

 

From: electricboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Doug B
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2011 10:43 AM
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Electric Boats] How many watts?

 

 

Based on the advice received here I purchased two Group 27 12v batteries for my Minn-Kota 65# 24v transom-mounted motor, and I'm awaiting the arrival of a Guest dual-bank 10 amp Pro Charger.

What I'd like to know now is: how many watts I should look for in a solar panel selection to help in my range while underway, and recharge my batteries while not in use and gone from the 110v for a few days. The motor pulls a max of 28 amps at 24v, I think; and powers a 16' pontoon boat--lightly loaded.

Thanks!

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Re: [Electric Boats] clutched alternator

 

Thanks Bob.
Regards Rob J.

From: Bob Noble <bnoble@sonic.net>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 1 March, 2011 7:31:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] clutched alternator

That should only be as hard as making some kind of mount for it.
You don't need a clutch as you can just put a switch on the field
connection.
No voltage on the field and it free turns. Put the voltage back and it
generates.



Bob Noble
http://www.sonic.net/bnoble
-----Original Message-----
From: Rob
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2011 12:06 PM
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Electric Boats] clutched alternator

My Lombardini has 2 belt pulleys , one unused.
How difficult would it be to put another alternator on it, connected by a
clutch ?.
Rob J.






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Posted by at No comments:

Re: [Electric Boats] clutched alternator

 

That should only be as hard as making some kind of mount for it.
You don't need a clutch as you can just put a switch on the field
connection.
No voltage on the field and it free turns. Put the voltage back and it
generates.

Bob Noble
http://www.sonic.net/bnoble
-----Original Message-----
From: Rob
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2011 12:06 PM
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Electric Boats] clutched alternator

My Lombardini has 2 belt pulleys , one unused.
How difficult would it be to put another alternator on it, connected by a
clutch ?.
Rob J.

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Posted by at No comments:

[Electric Boats] clutched alternator

 

My Lombardini has 2 belt pulleys , one unused.
How difficult would it be to put another alternator on it, connected by a clutch ?.
Rob J.

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Re: [Electric Boats] How many watts?

 

Well 28 X 24 = 672 watts.  I'd think you would need at least 1/3 of that to have a meaningful effect on range, the more the better.

On 2/28/2011 1:43 PM, Doug B wrote:

 

Based on the advice received here I purchased two Group 27 12v batteries for my Minn-Kota 65# 24v transom-mounted motor, and I'm awaiting the arrival of a Guest dual-bank 10 amp Pro Charger.

What I'd like to know now is: how many watts I should look for in a solar panel selection to help in my range while underway, and recharge my batteries while not in use and gone from the 110v for a few days. The motor pulls a max of 28 amps at 24v, I think; and powers a 16' pontoon boat--lightly loaded.

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Posted by at No comments:

Re: [Electric Boats] How many watts?

 

Well 28 X 24 = 672 watts.  I'd think you would need at least 1/3 of that to have a meaningful effect on range, the more the better.

On 2/28/2011 1:43 PM, Doug B wrote:

 

Based on the advice received here I purchased two Group 27 12v batteries for my Minn-Kota 65# 24v transom-mounted motor, and I'm awaiting the arrival of a Guest dual-bank 10 amp Pro Charger.

What I'd like to know now is: how many watts I should look for in a solar panel selection to help in my range while underway, and recharge my batteries while not in use and gone from the 110v for a few days. The motor pulls a max of 28 amps at 24v, I think; and powers a 16' pontoon boat--lightly loaded.

_,_._,___

__._,_.___
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__,_._,___
Posted by at No comments:

[Electric Boats] How many watts?

 

Based on the advice received here I purchased two Group 27 12v batteries for my Minn-Kota 65# 24v transom-mounted motor, and I'm awaiting the arrival of a Guest dual-bank 10 amp Pro Charger.

What I'd like to know now is: how many watts I should look for in a solar panel selection to help in my range while underway, and recharge my batteries while not in use and gone from the 110v for a few days. The motor pulls a max of 28 amps at 24v, I think; and powers a 16' pontoon boat--lightly loaded.

Thanks!

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[Electric Boats] Re: Rewiring DC electric system and Grounding

 

Hi Brian,

Good question. I'll be interested to see some responses.

5 years? I thought we installed around the same time 4/08.

Mark
Santa Cruz

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Holt" <drmsudo@...> wrote:
>
> I am replacing the electric panel on my aged ericson 27. I replaced the old A4 5 years ago with an electric. In removing the old motor, I lost my common ground to the engine. In place I bolted a bus bar that is by the old motor compartment and have used this. I have not had any problems so far. The boat is in fresh water and I have never had corrosion issues or noticed stray electric current around the boat. Now that I am replacing the panel I am looking to clean up the old wiring. I will also be adding a few things (ie. stereo, gps) and want to ensure that the boat and its wiring are up to par. I would like to hear some ideas or examples of working wiring systems and how they are grounded for DC house, electric motor, and shore power. Thanks for any and all that can help me out.
>

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Re: [Electric Boats] Schematic or diagram of system help

 



Hi Jim,

> http://www.chargingchargers.com/tutorials/power-supplies.html

They are often referring to the Samlex unit as their best charger when used as a power supply. Unfortunately, the Samlex (SEC1215, SEC1230, and SEC1245) are only single bank 12 volt chargers (no multi-bank, no 48 volts). Hence, you need 1 charger per battery, which ends up being expensive and bulky. Also note that the Samlex are not sealed units, so their "marine" rating is questionable.

Best regards,

Pierre

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