T-Pain Is On A Boat: 2021

Friday, December 31, 2021

Re: [electricboats] Electric Drive Update - end of season inspection

Dan, thanks for the post. The details are very helpful indeed. I'm in the process of doing a diesel to electric conversion using the 10kw Thunderstruck sail boat kit.

I have a question for you what length and gage wire are you using for the connection from batteries to controller.

Thanks, Jorge

-------- Original message --------

From: Dan Pfeiffer <dan@pfeiffer.net>

Date: 12/31/21 01:37 (GMT-05:00)

To: electricboats@groups.io

Subject: Re: [electricboats] Electric Drive Update - end of season inspection

Thanks for the comments. Happy to give back a little of what I have gotten from this group.

I spent some time this evening adding more info and photos. I'll likely split this all into smaller pages but for now it all starts here:
http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/electric_drive.htm

Dan Pfeiffer

On 2021-12-30 4:58 pm, Günter Wöckener wrote:

Dan, thank you very much for information and data.

Posted by Stevo at 11:21 AM No comments:

Thursday, December 30, 2021

Re: [electricboats] Electric Drive Update - end of season inspection

On 2021-12-30 4:58 pm, Günter Wöckener wrote:

Dan, thank you very much for information and data.
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On 2021-12-30 7:37 pm, Steven Borg wrote:

Dan, love the links! It's so much fun to see the progress.

It's wonderful you have so much of your conversion archived both here and on your website. Thank you for all your contributions to this list!

On 2021-12-30 9:50 pm, Carsten via groups.io wrote:

Thanks, Dan !!! I'll check it up tomorrow, when my 5 yo daugther wakes up, and are fed with her cereals...

On Thursday, 30 December 2021, 22:22:43 CET, Dan Pfeiffer <dan@pfeiffer.net> wrote:

In late October I finished my sailing season for 2021. Total motor running time was probably about 90-100 hours. My total time logged on the water was 251 hours. Average ride was 3 hrs and I figure I motor for 1 hour total for each ride plus some additional motoring on several days of testing.

[electricboats] High power

Hi all,

I'm very new here and very excited to have found such a great resource.

I'm a pretty new owner of a '79 Catalina 30. I've been researching going electric for a year or so. I've recently come up with a crazy idea that I would love to have someone shoot down so that it stops keeping me awake at night :)

Please tell me all the reasons it would be foolish to replace a normal motor with 2 (or 3 or 4) thrusters such as this:

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/255206656130?hash=item3b6b808882:g:BuUAAOSwRZphgBUf

Please note that the specific motor is not the focus of this question - thats just an example of a high power submersible motor that I have in mind.

My thoughts are benefits would be:

Redundancy

Economy

Possibly more efficient given 2, 3 or 4 props vs 1?

Installing by epoxying to the hull, installation wouldn't be that difficult?

Improved maneuverability in tight places

No prop walk

Improved regen?

Many thanks for your thoughts!

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Re: [electricboats] Electric Drive Update - end of season inspection

Thanks, Dan !!! I'll check it up tomorrow, when my 5 yo daugther wakes up, and are fed with her cereals...

On Thursday, 30 December 2021, 22:22:43 CET, Dan Pfeiffer <dan@pfeiffer.net> wrote:

In late October I finished my sailing season for 2021. Total motor running time was probably about 90-100 hours. My total time logged on the water was 251 hours. Average ride was 3 hrs and I figure I motor for 1 hour total for each ride plus some additional motoring on several days of testing.

Total charging logged was 161.66 kWh for 2.046kWhr per ride. My service at home is $.0521/kWh so at that rate it works out to $8.42 total for electricity used for the whole season. The diesel would have cost $200 for the same use (at APR. $3.50/gal). Safe to say that the running cost of the electric is less than 1/10 of diesel.

After fall haul out I disassembled the electric drive unit for inspection. I found some surface rust on the steel parts but everything came apart without any trouble. There was some oil residue inside the thrust bearing housing but I assembled it with some machine oil spread over all the surfaces. So I can't really tell if what I am seeing is from that or from lube leaking from the bearing seals. Seems like light oil and the bearing is lubed with grease. There was no apparent wear in the shaft or looseness of any kind anywhere. Everything was as snug as when I assembled it. The thrust bearing feels fine in the hand - smooth and true. There were no signs of binding or rubbing.

Belt wear was minimal to unnoticeable. I found only a very small amount of black residue on the inner faces of the plates where the belt runs.

There was some corrosion on the aluminum cover plate where I didn't properly coat the SS fasteners with Tef-Gel. Where I did use Tef-Gel everything was fine.

Overall I would say everything came out in excellent shape with regard to wear but I need to attend a bit better to corrosion protection on the steel parts and where there is SS+Aluminum contact. I am glad I used SS for the shaft. I can get an SS version of the pilot bearing and I can get an SS threaded locking collar. That might be worth it to eliminate the nuisance of rust on those parts. The pulleys and their bushings will need to be coated better or painted. Maybe I'll spray then with McLube. I did that on my bronze stuffing box 18 years ago and it has held up perfectly.

See photos of the inspection here:
http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/electric_drive_season_review.htm

And see more details of the system and photos of the installation here:
http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/electric_drive.htm

I have a lot more detail to add to this including performance data but this is a start. I'll attach some of that here as well.

Dan Pfeiffer

Re: [electricboats] Motor Mount and Thrust Plate design - hoping for feedback

I have 316 without any stains for 25 years... German made.

On Thursday, 30 December 2021, 22:39:59 CET, shredderf16 <shredderf16@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Steven,

Onlinemetals.com has 316 stainless in whatever you want. I'm building an ocean front house with a lot of salt spray. 304 corroded in 3 months. American made 316 has surface corrosion after 2 years. If the price difference is small I'd go for 316.

Jerry Barth

Sent from my Sprint Tablet.

-------- Original message --------

From: Steven Borg <steve@theborg.family>

Date: 12/30/21 4:07 PM (GMT-04:00)

To: electricboats@groups.io

Subject: Re: [electricboats] Motor Mount and Thrust Plate design - hoping for feedback

Carsten, great point. I did some research just now, and I would love to use 316, but I can't find a place that will do 316 in 1/2" thickness. The prior engine had a lot of iron and steel and I didn't have any issues with rusting. So I think I'll have to stick with 304. It's not as resistant, but it is more resistant than some of the alternatives.

Re: [electricboats] Electric Drive Update - end of season inspection

Dan, love the links! It's so much fun to see the progress.

It's wonderful you have so much of your conversion archived both here and on your website. Thank you for all your contributions to this list!

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Re: [electricboats] Motor Mount and Thrust Plate design - hoping for feedback

Steven,

All my stuff is directly exposed to salt spray. I've had several sailboats over the last 30 years and never seen anything like the conditions at my house. I had a powder coated mild steel mount for a small solar panel on the roof. A year later I found the panel laying on the roof and a small nail sized sliver of what was left of the mount. So very extreme conditions. Enclosed in your boat 304 will probably be fine. Even steel if you brush coat it as thick as you can with cold galv paint. I would not use aluminum bolts. Use SS and galvanically isolate from dissimilar metals with silicone caulk or plastic inserts. I've never tried it but I bet anti seize would work for a SS bolt into an aluminum threaded hole. One thing I use out here for my Lifep04 batteries (aluminum cases) is a compartment floor lined with thin plastic cutting board from Amazon. Also between cells. Cuts easy with metal shears. Another thing I've noticed is the foreign SS is more hit or miss than the domestic stuff. More corrosion and spalling of bolts/nuts. But most of it is fine.

Jerry Barth

Sent from my Sprint Tablet.

-------- Original message --------

From: Steven Borg <steve@theborg.family>

Date: 12/30/21 6:56 PM (GMT-04:00)

To: electricboats@groups.io

Subject: Re: [electricboats] Motor Mount and Thrust Plate design - hoping for feedback

Thanks, Shredderf16! I looked at onlinemetals.com, and they have 316 in stock as well as 304. The price is only about 30% more for 316, so likely a good choice. I also reached out to oshcut.com. They don't have it and aren't willing to cut metal bought elsewhere. BUT onlinemetals.com does laser cutting through SendCutSend, so I'll look into seeing if I can get the best of both worlds!

Failure of 304 in 3 months is pretty rough! In my use, I won't get any salt water on the metal, and the iron and steel on the motor and surrounding areas went 30 years without rusting (although initially protected by paint). So I'm not going to feel too badly if I have to stick with 304, but I will certainly prefer 316 if I can swing it! Thanks for your recommendation and experience.

As an aside, and coming back to price... Comparing oshcut and onlinemetals/sendcutsend, it looks like oshcut (after shipping) is about 40% less expensive. ($800 vs $1300)

Re: [electricboats] Motor Mount and Thrust Plate design - hoping for feedback

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Re: [electricboats] Electric Drive Update - end of season inspection

Dan, thank you very much for information and data.

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Re: [electricboats] Motor Mount and Thrust Plate design - hoping for feedback

Steven,

Jerry Barth

Sent from my Sprint Tablet.

-------- Original message --------

From: Steven Borg <steve@theborg.family>

Date: 12/30/21 4:07 PM (GMT-04:00)

To: electricboats@groups.io

Subject: Re: [electricboats] Motor Mount and Thrust Plate design - hoping for feedback

[electricboats] Electric Drive Update - end of season inspection

Re: [electricboats] Motor Mount and Thrust Plate design - hoping for feedback

Oops, one last note. He's the actual support for the ways to motor mount. You'll have to image 90 degree bends on the red lines to form a quarter of a box. That should provide substantial support for any thrust to prevent flex in the supports.

Re: [electricboats] Motor Mount and Thrust Plate design - hoping for feedback

On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 12:22 AM, Carsten wrote:

Steve, I would suggest that you make a machined alu bar in the really right angles, and fix the bottom plate end the vertical plate by a with that. Don't go with stainless.

You can do it by your hands (hard work), or by machinery. (I'm also a machinist)

Cut the threads for the bolts by hand. You count how many you'll need, or I'll help you.

You can put shims or epoxy under. I know how the technique to aligne engines by epoxy.

You may want to address me directly for more info.

Carsten, I forgot to address the aluminum recommendation. Are you suggesting I do the whole motor mount and everything in aluminum, or just machine the bolts in aluminum? I actually thought of aluminum for the whole thing -- much cheaper and plenty strong, but stainless steel fell in price so I thought I'd use it instead. I'd hesitate using aluminum bolts on stainless plate, though. Wouldn't the differing metals cause problems?

Thanks again, Carsten! I have really appreciated your comments throughout the forum, not just on my posts!

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Re: [electricboats] Motor Mount and Thrust Plate design - hoping for feedback

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Re: [electricboats] Motor Mount and Thrust Plate design - hoping for feedback

Carsten, I'm having trouble visualizing how I might use aluminum bar to attach the motor plate to the old engine beds. Right now, my tentative plan is to have the motor mount and everything on it tilted at an 8% angle to match the beds (4.5" treated wood). That allows me to set the bolt holding the motor plate at 90 degrees to the ways/beds -- allowing me to reuse existing bolt holes potentially. Here's a few diagrams, then I'm going to try to flesh out what I think you might be recommending below those.

Here's the ways and the engine mount, showing the 98% bend of the supports. (Again, the supports shown here are just bent plate, but my final design will be far more robust (see below for first idea).)

Here's an angled view showing the mount looking fore (and to the side). Note that the thrust meets the center of the propeller shaft at the top of the ways.

Here's a view looking aft, straight on. Note that the engine plate is sized to 'float' in between the ways to allow for vertical adjustment to ensure I can create exact alignment (vertically) with the propeller shaft. (For angular alignment, I'll use shims (likely <2% max) between the support and the ways for adjustment.)

My understanding of your recommendation is that I would make the support 90 degrees and then use a triangular shim of approximately 8% and put that between the support and the ways. That shim could be epoxy for insanely strong support. Then I'd either attach the bolts at 90 degrees to the support, and at an angle through the ways, or directly through the ways. Something like this? Where the grey is the epoxy shim you're recommending and the red and yellow arrows are the way the bolts would go through the ways? So sorry if I'm interpreting what you've said wrong, Carsten!

:-)
Steve

Re: [electricboats] Motor Mount and Thrust Plate design - hoping for feedback

Jesper, THANK YOU! I hadn't seen oshcut.com before! They are even cheaper than local, even considering shipping, and 30% off the price of SendCutSend (with shipping included). I can only get #1 finished stainless in 1/2", but that's OK. It's a motor mount, not a kitchen appliance.

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Re: [electricboats] Motor Mount and Thrust Plate design - hoping for feedback

Sendcutsend.com are fantastic and I've used them in many applications. I did however order the larger parts for my project from oshcut.com as they had better prices on large stainless steel parts. Always worth shopping around a bit :)

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Re: [electricboats] Motor Mount and Thrust Plate design - hoping for feedback

Steve, I would suggest that you make a machined alu bar in the really right angles, and fix the bottom plate end the vertical plate by a with that. Don't go with stainless.

You can do it by your hands (hard work), or by machinery. (I'm also a machinist)

Cut the threads for the bolts by hand. You count how many you'll need, or I'll help you.

You can put shims or epoxy under. I know how the technique to aligne engines by epoxy.

You may want to address me directly for more info.

I'm lucky to be able to relocate my boat to brackish waters soon ;-)

Sakskøbing, Lolland, Denmark.

Send some drawings, please

On Wednesday, 29 December 2021, 18:26:04 CET, Steven Borg <steve@theborg.family> wrote:

Dan, that's an excellent drawing! And I get your point strongly. I'm totally in luck that the center of the propeller shaft, at its angle hits nearly exactly at the top of the bed. Unfortunately, the beds are laid in at a 2 degree angle and the propeller shaft is at a 10 degree angle, so the thrust forces are pushing 8 degrees 'upward' on the ways. That's not too much pressure, but it makes me happy the thrust is directly balanced on the bed.

I'd love to do an additional bend (parallel) on the thrust plate. I decided against it for two reasons. First, it can only run a small distance, since I had to cut the part that goes below the ways into a half circle to fit, and second because that piece is relatively cheap so I can replace easily with a more substantial one if actual use demands it. I didn't put bends at the ends (perpendicular) because I felt the bolts would provide sufficient resistance to bending in that direction. But I could certainly be wrong about that!

The boat is fiberglass (balsa wood core), with a fiberglass deck and cockpit. It's stood up well these past 30 years, but it's due for another round of paint, especially some anti-fouling bottom paint... ;-)

:-)
Steve

Re: [electricboats] Motor Mount and Thrust Plate design - hoping for feedback

Steven, 304 is not for salty conditions...

Choose 316

On Wednesday, 29 December 2021, 01:47:26 CET, Steven Borg <steve@theborg.family> wrote:

Thanks, Dan and Ryan!

Ryan, I'll do that! I hadn't thought of using a threaded bar to prevent the motor from sliding down. I could easily create something to hold the motor up during adjustments.

Dan, I appreciate the feedback on the slots, too. I could shorten the height by several inches and save some money on the stainless steel.

Here are some notes:

Pulleys: P30-8M-30 small pulley (30 teeth) and P112-8m-30 large pulley for a 1:3.7 reduction. I'd like more, but 30 teeth is a bit small and going bigger than 112 meant a pulley that would extend too low.
1/2" stainless is crazy but it mates up perfectly with the motor. I could likely get away with 3/8", but I'm someone who consistently overbuilds things, so... 1/2". I chose stainless because she's lived the last 30 years in saltwater and will likely continue to for the foreseeable future. Plus it's a similar metal to the motor face. 1/2" aluminum would be plenty strong, and that was my original choice, but decided to do 100% stainless steel (304 series) instead.
I'm ordering the plate from either a local steel shop (Everett Steel) or SendCutSend.com so I'll have it laser cut. That adds about $250 dollars to the cost, but I get accurate, clean holes. And I don't have to figure that part out.
Motor: NetGain HyPer 9HV (144V, 500A AC Motor)
Batteries: 48 EVE 280Ah 3.2V for 153.6 nominal V and 43 kwH
Boat: 55 ft, 49 at waterline, 45,000 lbs, ketch, 24" prop

I have another couple posts from a long time back on the forum, with more details.
electricboats@groups.io | Repowering a 55' sailboat
electricboats@groups.io | Repowering a 55' sailboat - Tentative Design

As you can see in those threads, Dan, your comments and those of others heavily influenced my design and I made some major changes to my initial ideas!

:-)
Steve

Wednesday, December 29, 2021

Re: [electricboats] Motor Mount and Thrust Plate design - hoping for feedback

Yup. A lot of design elements get constrained by the space you have to fit it in. I ripped out the old engine beds and started from scratch. That made sense for my installation. But my boat is about 1/4 the displacement of yours. And mine is heavy for 33'.

Even if you add only a small 90 to the thrust plate it will make a big difference in stiffness. That increases with cube of beam height. So if you double the beam height you increase stiffness by 8x. So even adding a 1/2" flange on the 1/4 plate will increase the stiffness by 8x. Or the if the plate was 1/2 thick it would be 8x stiffer than the 1/4. Maybe that's a simple way to do it.

Dan Pfeiffer

On 2021-12-29 12:26 pm, Steven Borg wrote:

Dan, that's an excellent drawing! And I get your point strongly. I'm totally in luck that the center of the propeller shaft, at its angle hits nearly exactly at the top of the bed. Unfortunately, the beds are laid in at a 2 degree angle and the propeller shaft is at a 10 degree angle, so the thrust forces are pushing 8 degrees 'upward' on the ways. That's not too much pressure, but it makes me happy the thrust is directly balanced on the bed.

I'd love to do an additional bend (parallel) on the thrust plate. I decided against it for two reasons. First, it can only run a small distance, since I had to cut the part that goes below the ways into a half circle to fit, and second because that piece is relatively cheap so I can replace easily with a more substantial one if actual use demands it. I didn't put bends at the ends (perpendicular) because I felt the bolts would provide sufficient resistance to bending in that direction. But I could certainly be wrong about that!

The boat is fiberglass (balsa wood core), with a fiberglass deck and cockpit. It's stood up well these past 30 years, but it's due for another round of paint, especially some anti-fouling bottom paint... ;-)

:-)
Steve
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Re: [electricboats] Motor Mount and Thrust Plate design - hoping for feedback

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Re: [electricboats] Motor Mount and Thrust Plate design - hoping for feedback

I was thinking you needed that 90. I might move those spacer blocks between the motor plate and the thrust plate more inboard. As much as possible while still leaving room for the hub/bearing. And if you put a 90 on one edge of the thrust plate I would put it on both so it doesn't want to twist. Point is to stiffen the thrust plate and do it uniformly. Maybe make it from some c-chancel?

Also, I think ideally your mounting to the beds is in the same plane as the axis of the prop shaft or as close as you can manage. Otherwise you create a moment where the thrust of the drive is trying to bend the whole assembly rather than pushing in line with the mounts. I made a sketch that explains that better.

All that may be easy or difficult depending on the geometry and available space for the everything.

What is the boat made from? Fiberglass? Steel?

Dan Pfeiffer

On 2021-12-29 10:22 am, Steven Borg wrote:

Carsten, thank you! I'm planning on having the plate itself be 1/2" stainless steel - very heavy and sturdy. And all of the supporting items 1/4" stainless steel. What's not shown is that the 'thrust plate' will also have a 90 bend at the bottom to provide additional support to handle the thrust forces.

:-)
Steve
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Re: [electricboats] Motor Mount and Thrust Plate design - hoping for feedback

Carsten, thank you! I'm planning on having the plate itself be 1/2" stainless steel - very heavy and sturdy. And all of the supporting items 1/4" stainless steel. What's not shown is that the 'thrust plate' will also have a 90 bend at the bottom to provide additional support to handle the thrust forces.

:-)
Steve

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Tuesday, December 28, 2021

Re: [electricboats] Electric Drive Installation - Regen and Shunt Meter

This is great information, Dan! I'm planning on using an Arduino with GPS to continually track several data points when underway - GPS, RPM, Current Draw, battery measurements, heeling angle (or maybe roll, pitch and yaw), and hopefully at some point, speed through water, windspeed and direction, etc. But the latter are hard to get access to.

Oooh, I can't wait to have a boat actually moving in the water again!

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Re: [electricboats] Motor Mount and Thrust Plate design - hoping for feedback

Pulleys: P30-8M-30 small pulley (30 teeth) and P112-8m-30 large pulley for a 1:3.7 reduction. I'd like more, but 30 teeth is a bit small and going bigger than 112 meant a pulley that would extend too low.
1/2" stainless is crazy but it mates up perfectly with the motor. I could likely get away with 3/8", but I'm someone who consistently overbuilds things, so... 1/2". I chose stainless because she's lived the last 30 years in saltwater and will likely continue to for the foreseeable future. Plus it's a similar metal to the motor face. 1/2" aluminum would be plenty strong, and that was my original choice, but decided to do 100% stainless steel (304 series) instead.
I'm ordering the plate from either a local steel shop (Everett Steel) or SendCutSend.com so I'll have it laser cut. That adds about $250 dollars to the cost, but I get accurate, clean holes. And I don't have to figure that part out.
Motor: NetGain HyPer 9HV (144V, 500A AC Motor)
Batteries: 48 EVE 280Ah 3.2V for 153.6 nominal V and 43 kwH
Boat: 55 ft, 49 at waterline, 45,000 lbs, ketch, 24" prop

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Re: [electricboats] Motor Mount and Thrust Plate design - hoping for feedback

Only 3/8 bolts to hold the motor? I think you'll be fine. My ME1616 motor is held with four 5/16 fasteners. It was fine. I tightened mine with a quick clamp pulling the motor pulley to snug the belt while I tightened the mounting bolts. It doesn't take a crazy lot of tension with the toothed belts.

I don't think you need the idler and it is an extra part and an additional wear point for the belt.   It might be useful if you have a problem with engagement of the toothed belt over the small pulley. But unless you are running something like a 20 and a 100 tooth pulley you will likely be well within spec for engagement. I am running 20 and 60 for 3:1 reduction and engagement is fine.

That 1/2 stainless mounting plate seems pretty extreme. How are you machining that? It will be quite tough unless you do it with a water jet? I used 3/4 aluminum because it is easy to work with, properly rigid, and thick enough that I could countersink all the fastener heads for a flush face where the belts ride.   But I am not in a challenging corrosion environment.

What are the specs on your installation and on the boat?   Motor size, battery size, boat type, loa, lwl, displacement, etc...

I have been meaning to post an end of season review of my experience with my electric drive. I'll see about that soon.

Thanks, Dan Pfeiffer

On 2021-12-28 5:32 pm, Steven Borg wrote:

Thanks, Dan! I appreciate the comments. Very much!

You reminded me of a question I forgot to ask about belt tightening. Thank you!

My current plan is to mount a free spinning, 2" idler on one or both sides of the belt. I put two 1/2" slots to accept the bolt. Today, the 30mm wide, 8mm pitch belt slides on my prototype fairly tightly, then I can tighten with the idler.

However, you recommend using slotted holes for the motor mount. I considered that, and it would likely be ideal, since I wouldn't need an idler - saving me both space (I could bring the two gears closer together), and efficiency of having a bend in the timing belt (not to mention the additional wear). What kept me from doing that is that the motor is 120 pounds and I was worried that the weight and vibration would eventually 'wiggle' the motor down, loosening the belt. This is especially true since I'm having to mount only a single face of the motor (at least that's the current plan). (Plus, the bolts are only 3/8" holding in the motor.)

Am I being overly concerned about the bolts loosening and the motor slipping down? I'd love to have slotted mounts, but I'm nervous!

Thanks again, Dan! I really appreciate your help. Especially the drawing of your solution!

Re: [electricboats] Motor Mount and Thrust Plate design - hoping for feedback

It's worth looking at the thunderstruck solution - that have a top bolt connecting to the plate vertically with locking nuts and with an eye to fasten to the motor and that is used to tension the belt up and down. Prevents the other bokts from sliding down. I haven't seen any movement from vibration - also with 200+hours, but I also used a steel strut and rubber washers as dampeners to ensure that the mounting plate and motor doesnt wiggle fore and aft.

On Dec 28, 2021, at 14:32, Steven Borg <steve@theborg.family> wrote:

Thanks, Dan! I appreciate the comments. Very much!

You reminded me of a question I forgot to ask about belt tightening. Thank you!

My current plan is to mount a free spinning, 2" idler on one or both sides of the belt. I put two 1/2" slots to accept the bolt. Today, the 30mm wide, 8mm pitch belt slides on my prototype fairly tightly, then I can tighten with the idler.

However, you recommend using slotted holes for the motor mount. I considered that, and it would likely be ideal, since I wouldn't need an idler - saving me both space (I could bring the two gears closer together), and efficiency of having a bend in the timing belt (not to mention the additional wear). What kept me from doing that is that the motor is 120 pounds and I was worried that the weight and vibration would eventually 'wiggle' the motor down, loosening the belt. This is especially true since I'm having to mount only a single face of the motor (at least that's the current plan). (Plus, the bolts are only 3/8" holding in the motor.)

Am I being overly concerned about the bolts loosening and the motor slipping down? I'd love to have slotted mounts, but I'm nervous!

Thanks again, Dan! I really appreciate your help. Especially the drawing of your solution!

Re: [electricboats] Motor Mount and Thrust Plate design - hoping for feedback

Thanks, Dan! I appreciate the comments. Very much!

You reminded me of a question I forgot to ask about belt tightening. Thank you!

My current plan is to mount a free spinning, 2" idler on one or both sides of the belt. I put two 1/2" slots to accept the bolt. Today, the 30mm wide, 8mm pitch belt slides on my prototype fairly tightly, then I can tighten with the idler.

However, you recommend using slotted holes for the motor mount. I considered that, and it would likely be ideal, since I wouldn't need an idler - saving me both space (I could bring the two gears closer together), and efficiency of having a bend in the timing belt (not to mention the additional wear). What kept me from doing that is that the motor is 120 pounds and I was worried that the weight and vibration would eventually 'wiggle' the motor down, loosening the belt. This is especially true since I'm having to mount only a single face of the motor (at least that's the current plan). (Plus, the bolts are only 3/8" holding in the motor.)

Am I being overly concerned about the bolts loosening and the motor slipping down? I'd love to have slotted mounts, but I'm nervous!

Thanks again, Dan! I really appreciate your help. Especially the drawing of your solution!

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Re: [electricboats] Motor Mount and Thrust Plate design - hoping for feedback

This looks great. Very tidy.

You need to add a way to tension the belt. Make the mounting holes for the motor vertical slots to give maybe 1" (25mm) of overall travel.

I think your mounting of the thrust bearing forward of the belt is fine. That's how ZF v-drives are done. But you may have some issues with shaft diameters to work out.

I think the trailer hub is a fine solution. Very robust and affordable in SS. And it handles thrust and axial loads to keep the shaft aligned. The reason I didn't use it was simply that I didn't have room. Its pretty long. I didn't think of your solution of moving it forward. That might have worked for me too. You still need a flange of some sort to mate your unit to the prop shaft. And you need some way of securing your output shaft to the hub. I had a threaded section of the shaft basically the same as you see on a trailer axle. I used a locking threaded ring.

I adapted a sketch from my setup to better show what I mean. Left is aft. I should have flipped it... sorry.

You will need to disconnect the prop shaft at the flanges to change the belt. Not too bad. You could keep a spare belt already in place and stored back over the stuffing box. I don't know how much of a concern this is for a nice robust and stiff setup. I ran for about 300 hours last season and didn't see any signs of issues with the belt.

Dan Pfeiffer

On 2021-12-28 1:11 pm, Steven Borg wrote:

Next step is to get the pieces together to mount the motor. I've sketched up several items. I'm pasting below, but the screenshots are also available here: https://1drv.ms/u/s!Aux_hgfdOOFDsOkKOYmcOH4TvIHSaw?e=Opt1Fo

Here's what the final assembly will (sort of) look like, from the side (right is aft). Everything is angled down 8% to accommodate slope of propeller shaft. There are no bolts shown, as that felt like just extra work, and the connection to ways isn't the actual, just something I sketched up quickly. It will actually be more triangular to provide additional support -- what I'm showing here is just to give an idea of how everything connects.

One thing to note is that the thrust plate is fore of the belt, which is different than the Thunderstruck solution. This allows me to switch around the motor mounting direction.

Same look, from the side, facing aft:

Same parts, looking fore:

And here are a few views without the ways and connections to the ways:

Here are the individual parts (realize that pre-manufactured ones I've just sketched up, so they're missing detail - no threads on bolts, etc.)

Motor Mount: (made of 1/2 inch stainless steel)

HubSupport / Thrust Plate (also, I've since added one additional hole):

Spacer (3" x 3") to separate thrust plate / hub mount from motor mount plate. Planning to use a hard wood to start with so I can plane it to get the exact depth I need and provide for adjustment:

Plate to connect Ways Support to Motor Mount Plate (same holes as Spacer and Thrust plate):

The ways support from the mock-up. Actual will be different, but this shows how the supports are set at 98 degrees to tilt motor plate down appropriately:

And that's it.

Despite the wonderful advice from Dan and Carsten I'm likely going to use a heavy duty trailer hub that's way overpowered for my needs.

In many ways, this is a first pass at the solution. I expect to learn from this install, and potentially change things up. For instance, given the structure, I could likely replace the trailer hub with a machined part relatively easily.

Thoughts?

:-)
Steve

[electricboats] Motor Mount and Thrust Plate design - hoping for feedback

Next step is to get the pieces together to mount the motor. I've sketched up several items. I'm pasting below, but the screenshots are also available here: https://1drv.ms/u/s!Aux_hgfdOOFDsOkKOYmcOH4TvIHSaw?e=Opt1Fo

Here's what the final assembly will (sort of) look like, from the side (right is aft). Everything is angled down 8% to accommodate slope of propeller shaft. There are no bolts shown, as that felt like just extra work, and the connection to ways isn't the actual, just something I sketched up quickly. It will actually be more triangular to provide additional support -- what I'm showing here is just to give an idea of how everything connects.

One thing to note is that the thrust plate is fore of the belt, which is different than the Thunderstruck solution. This allows me to switch around the motor mounting direction.

Same look, from the side, facing aft:

Same parts, looking fore:

And here are a few views without the ways and connections to the ways:

Here are the individual parts (realize that pre-manufactured ones I've just sketched up, so they're missing detail - no threads on bolts, etc.)

Motor Mount: (made of 1/2 inch stainless steel)

HubSupport / Thrust Plate (also, I've since added one additional hole):

Spacer (3" x 3") to separate thrust plate / hub mount from motor mount plate. Planning to use a hard wood to start with so I can plane it to get the exact depth I need and provide for adjustment:

Plate to connect Ways Support to Motor Mount Plate (same holes as Spacer and Thrust plate):

The ways support from the mock-up. Actual will be different, but this shows how the supports are set at 98 degrees to tilt motor plate down appropriately:

And that's it.

Despite the wonderful advice from Dan and Carsten I'm likely going to use a heavy duty trailer hub that's way overpowered for my needs.

In many ways, this is a first pass at the solution. I expect to learn from this install, and potentially change things up. For instance, given the structure, I could likely replace the trailer hub with a machined part relatively easily.

Thoughts?

:-)
Steve

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Tuesday, November 30, 2021

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Sunday, November 28, 2021

[electricboats] New Electric SUP IO Group

Aloha eSUP Paddlers,

I started a new IO group for electric standup paddle boarders (eSUP)

https://groups.io/g/electric-sup

Been custom building eSUPs for customers since 2014. Our boards are lively underfoot and a pure joy to ride and paddle. But Firefly is not the only game in town. If you need DIY tips or have an OEM system it’s a wonderful group to share your project and eSUP adventures. All eSUP paddlers welcome.

- Dan
Firefly SUP Drives

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Friday, October 29, 2021

Re: [electricboats] Electric Sailboat Ride

Thanks Matt
Very interesting!

I have a customer with an interesting use for an electric motor. Basically as a helper motor to be used in tandem with a Diesel engine when running against very strong currents and as the main drive during light use times .
I'll have to do some more research and figure out the exact case and do a new post but I will be looking forward to your response.
> On Oct 28, 2021, at 3:51 PM, Ken Winokur <kenwphoto@gmail.com> wrote:
>

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Re: [electricboats] Electric Sailboat Ride

Hi Ken,

See attached.

Not proportional. I imagine this is partly due to the Autoprop maximizing thrust at any rpm.

Matt Foley

Sunlight Conversions

Perpetual Energy, LLC

201-914-0466

sunlightconversions.com

instagram.com/sunlightconversions/

youtube/sunlightconversions

On Thursday, October 28, 2021, 04:40:26 PM EDT, Ken Winokur <kenwphoto@gmail.com> wrote:

Do you track your rpm and did it remain constant as the speed increases?

On Oct 28, 2021, at 2:01 PM, Matt Foley <matt@sunlightconversions.com> wrote:

See attached

Finally getting around posting the stats. Missing some data points, but you will get the point. Note, the wattage measurement on the 1803/Curtis setup are from the controller. Add about 10% for overall system wattage.

O'Day 31

Length at waterline 25' 7in
Beam 10' 9in
Draft "5'3in deep, 4' shoal"
Displacement "10,100, 10,400 shoal"

My original setup was direct drive with a Saietta 7.5kw, 4QD controller and a 12"x7 prop

New setup ME1803 8.1kw, Curtis 1236SE, 16" Brunton Autorpop. First try was 2:1 reduction. I was hitting my amp limit at 6.1 knots. Changed to a 3.26:1. That allowed me to kit 7knots at 9000 watts.

10.2kwh lifepo4. 51.2 nominal.

Matt Foley
Sunlight Conversions
Perpetual Energy, LLC
201-914-0466
sunlightconversions.com
instagram.com/sunlightconversions/
youtube/sunlightconversions

On Monday, May 10, 2021, 04:28:08 PM EDT, Dan Pfeiffer <dan@pfeiffer.net> wrote:

Thanks for the details.

I have a feathering prop (J Prop) and to get it to feather with the diesel I would shut the motor down in forward, shift to reverse, then back to neutral.   It would then stay feathered in neutral. If you went from forward to neutral without first going to reverse it would continue to spin. I am hoping to be able to do the equivalent procedure with the electric to get the prop to feather. But I will have to take care not to shock the prop in the process. I will experiment with making it "invisible" which may offer lower drag than feathered due to the relatively large angle of the prop shaft from horizontal in my case (15 deg). But that will not be an option for racing which I do on a somewhat casual basis.

The same should be true for a Max Prop but the Autoprop is a different (and very interesting) beast.

I think that ME 1803 is the motor that Beta Marine is using in their new parallel hybrid system.
https://betamarine.co.uk/he-hybrid-propulsion/

What are you doing for the thrust bearing with the ME1803?

I'll be interested in hearing about your reduction gear experience.   I was planning to start with 3:1 myself. This is in a Pearson 10M (33'), 13,000 lbs, ME1616 motor, 18" J Prop, 14kWh LiFePo4, 48V. 3:1 will get me a max prop RPM of 800. I have planned for some flexibility in the drive belt pulley sizing and the prop is variable pitch. I am deep into fabricating all the mountings for the motor, reduction drive and thrust bearing. I hope to be on the water in a few weeks.

Thanks, Dan Pfeiffer

On 2021-05-10 2:41 pm, Matt Foley wrote:

Hi Dan,

My old motor was a Saietta. Basically identical to the Thoosa. New motor is a Motenergy ME1803.

I don't recall the specs but the Saietta has a thrust bearing that can handle many many times more than thrust generated by the prop.

Yes, prop needs to be locked in place. Havn't put much thought into it. If I was crossing oceans it would be a different story, but my for my use case, I find myself motor sailing most of the time and if wanted to make the prop invisible it doesn't take much power at all. If I wanted to get fancy, it should be possible lock the shaft electronically through the controller

In a few weeks ill have data for old vs new setup and variations of the new setup.

Matt Foley
Sunlight Conversions

Perpetual Energy, LLC

201-914-0466

sunlightconversions.com

instagram.com/sunlightconversions/

youtube/sunlightconversions

On Monday, May 10, 2021, 02:59:01 PM EDT, Dan Pfeiffer <dan@pfeiffer.net> wrote:

Do you need to lock the prop shaft to get the Autoprop to feather for sailing?   If so how do you plan to do that?

What motor is that? Looks like a Thoosa? Is there a thrust bearing in the motor?

Do you have any performance data to share? Knots vs Watts?

Thanks, Dan Pfeiffer

<RiverRyder Saietta vs ME1803.pdf>

Friday, December 31, 2021

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