Thursday, January 30, 2020

Re: [electricboats] Electric motor and Kelly controller overheating

Do you have a thrust bearing?
Seems like something is wrong, based on your power useage.

On Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 7:42 AM Kai <kai@emailcorner.net> wrote:
What is the (temperature) rating of the motor windings?  A class F motor (winding) is rated at 155C. 

"overheating" is a relative term - a motor can be operating perfectly fine but the casing is also at the same time not touch safe.

Can you link the motor specs?


On 30/01/2020 10:24 PM, Bob Jennings wrote:
I'm no expert but seems to me too much torque from the prop running this motor direct with no gear reduction. 80 degree Celsius is 176 degrees Fahrenheit. You could cook dinner off the motor, probably boil water when it hits 120 degrees Celsius. You may have to use a gear reduction. Just a thought.

On Wed, Jan 29, 2020, 5:13 PM Mich Pop <michpop@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi
I've recently finished my conversion of a 29 Roberts 4.5 ton yacht.
1200 watt panels
270 Ah batteries at 48 volt 15s3p
Batrium BMS

My usage stats are
Rpm.    Amp.  Knots
530.     57
500.     44.       3.5
475.      38.      3.2
450.      31.      3.2
400.      25
420.      30
410.     28.    2.4
 
 
250 rpm 6 amp
400 rpm 24 amp
450 rpm 35 amp
580 rpm 63 amp
680 rpm 95 amp

We replaced a 20hp bukh diesel and left the prop and shaft as is.
Max rpm of the diesel was 2500 with a 2.5:1 reduction ratio, so max1000 rpm on the 2 bladed 400mm diameter prop. Direct drive, no gear reduction.
Good shaft alignment can be easily rotated by hand. Easy to get cavitation if you rev up too fast.

After 20 min at 500 rpm the 120 frame AC motor reaches 80 degrees Celsius and after 40 min 120 degrees Celsius. There is sufficient ventilation.

The KAC 600 amp max 72 volt Kelly controller 8080I reaches 92 degrees after 30min and reduces high rpm to around 500 rpm and keeps them there remaining at 92 degrees Celsius.

Has anybody had a similar problem and found a good solution?
I'm not interested in cooling. I want to understand why the motor overheats at 2.5kW when it is designed to run at 4kW all day.




Thank you all for your awesome inspiration over the years. Your posts have been really helpful.

Cheers Mich


_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

View/Reply Online (#30216) | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute This Topic | New Topic

Your Subscription | Contact Group Owner | Unsubscribe [newarmyguitar24@gmail.com]

_._,_._,_

Re: [electricboats] Electric motor and Kelly controller overheating

Use heat sensor gun . It points out your heat problems immediately.  Detects hidden corrosion on any contact. A must for electric boat drive  

Terminalift LLC
9444 Mission Park Place
Santee, CA 92071
Ph: (619) 562-0355
F: (619) 562-2060



On Thursday, January 30, 2020, 3:27:12 AM PST, Bob Jennings <heatnh@gmail.com> wrote:


I'm no expert but seems to me too much torque from the prop running this motor direct with no gear reduction. 80 degree Celsius is 176 degrees Fahrenheit. You could cook dinner off the motor, probably boil water when it hits 120 degrees Celsius. You may have to use a gear reduction. Just a thought.

On Wed, Jan 29, 2020, 5:13 PM Mich Pop <michpop@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi
I've recently finished my conversion of a 29 Roberts 4.5 ton yacht.
1200 watt panels
270 Ah batteries at 48 volt 15s3p
Batrium BMS

My usage stats are
Rpm.    Amp.  Knots
530.     57
500.     44.       3.5
475.      38.      3.2
450.      31.      3.2
400.      25
420.      30
410.     28.    2.4
 
 
250 rpm 6 amp
400 rpm 24 amp
450 rpm 35 amp
580 rpm 63 amp
680 rpm 95 amp

We replaced a 20hp bukh diesel and left the prop and shaft as is.
Max rpm of the diesel was 2500 with a 2.5:1 reduction ratio, so max1000 rpm on the 2 bladed 400mm diameter prop. Direct drive, no gear reduction.
Good shaft alignment can be easily rotated by hand. Easy to get cavitation if you rev up too fast.

After 20 min at 500 rpm the 120 frame AC motor reaches 80 degrees Celsius and after 40 min 120 degrees Celsius. There is sufficient ventilation.

The KAC 600 amp max 72 volt Kelly controller 8080I reaches 92 degrees after 30min and reduces high rpm to around 500 rpm and keeps them there remaining at 92 degrees Celsius.

Has anybody had a similar problem and found a good solution?
I'm not interested in cooling. I want to understand why the motor overheats at 2.5kW when it is designed to run at 4kW all day.




Thank you all for your awesome inspiration over the years. Your posts have been really helpful.

Cheers Mich

Re: [electricboats] Electric motor and Kelly controller overheating

What is the (temperature) rating of the motor windings?  A class F motor (winding) is rated at 155C. 

"overheating" is a relative term - a motor can be operating perfectly fine but the casing is also at the same time not touch safe.

Can you link the motor specs?


On 30/01/2020 10:24 PM, Bob Jennings wrote:
I'm no expert but seems to me too much torque from the prop running this motor direct with no gear reduction. 80 degree Celsius is 176 degrees Fahrenheit. You could cook dinner off the motor, probably boil water when it hits 120 degrees Celsius. You may have to use a gear reduction. Just a thought.

On Wed, Jan 29, 2020, 5:13 PM Mich Pop <michpop@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi
I've recently finished my conversion of a 29 Roberts 4.5 ton yacht.
1200 watt panels
270 Ah batteries at 48 volt 15s3p
Batrium BMS

My usage stats are
Rpm.    Amp.  Knots
530.     57
500.     44.       3.5
475.      38.      3.2
450.      31.      3.2
400.      25
420.      30
410.     28.    2.4
 
 
250 rpm 6 amp
400 rpm 24 amp
450 rpm 35 amp
580 rpm 63 amp
680 rpm 95 amp

We replaced a 20hp bukh diesel and left the prop and shaft as is.
Max rpm of the diesel was 2500 with a 2.5:1 reduction ratio, so max1000 rpm on the 2 bladed 400mm diameter prop. Direct drive, no gear reduction.
Good shaft alignment can be easily rotated by hand. Easy to get cavitation if you rev up too fast.

After 20 min at 500 rpm the 120 frame AC motor reaches 80 degrees Celsius and after 40 min 120 degrees Celsius. There is sufficient ventilation.

The KAC 600 amp max 72 volt Kelly controller 8080I reaches 92 degrees after 30min and reduces high rpm to around 500 rpm and keeps them there remaining at 92 degrees Celsius.

Has anybody had a similar problem and found a good solution?
I'm not interested in cooling. I want to understand why the motor overheats at 2.5kW when it is designed to run at 4kW all day.




Thank you all for your awesome inspiration over the years. Your posts have been really helpful.

Cheers Mich


Re: [electricboats] Electric motor and Kelly controller overheating

I'm no expert but seems to me too much torque from the prop running this motor direct with no gear reduction. 80 degree Celsius is 176 degrees Fahrenheit. You could cook dinner off the motor, probably boil water when it hits 120 degrees Celsius. You may have to use a gear reduction. Just a thought.

On Wed, Jan 29, 2020, 5:13 PM Mich Pop <michpop@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi
I've recently finished my conversion of a 29 Roberts 4.5 ton yacht.
1200 watt panels
270 Ah batteries at 48 volt 15s3p
Batrium BMS

My usage stats are
Rpm.    Amp.  Knots
530.     57
500.     44.       3.5
475.      38.      3.2
450.      31.      3.2
400.      25
420.      30
410.     28.    2.4
 
 
250 rpm 6 amp
400 rpm 24 amp
450 rpm 35 amp
580 rpm 63 amp
680 rpm 95 amp

We replaced a 20hp bukh diesel and left the prop and shaft as is.
Max rpm of the diesel was 2500 with a 2.5:1 reduction ratio, so max1000 rpm on the 2 bladed 400mm diameter prop. Direct drive, no gear reduction.
Good shaft alignment can be easily rotated by hand. Easy to get cavitation if you rev up too fast.

After 20 min at 500 rpm the 120 frame AC motor reaches 80 degrees Celsius and after 40 min 120 degrees Celsius. There is sufficient ventilation.

The KAC 600 amp max 72 volt Kelly controller 8080I reaches 92 degrees after 30min and reduces high rpm to around 500 rpm and keeps them there remaining at 92 degrees Celsius.

Has anybody had a similar problem and found a good solution?
I'm not interested in cooling. I want to understand why the motor overheats at 2.5kW when it is designed to run at 4kW all day.




Thank you all for your awesome inspiration over the years. Your posts have been really helpful.

Cheers Mich

_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

View/Reply Online (#30213) | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute This Topic | New Topic

Your Subscription | Contact Group Owner | Unsubscribe [newarmyguitar24@gmail.com]

_._,_._,_

Wednesday, January 29, 2020

Re: [electricboats] Electric motor and Kelly controller overheating

[Edited Message Follows]

Hi,
I'm using a direct-drive BLDC motor and was a trouble with motor and Kelly controller overheating in the past. Problem was in high RPM motor that never can reach its optimal RPM with high torque load from big prop without reduction. Problem with overheating for both motor and controller was solver by replacing electric motor to low-RPM one, with much better torque value at low RPM. My first motor was designed to 4000 RPM, but worked at 800 RPMmax because of it's lack of torque. Second motor have max RPM 1000 and at all useful RPM range it work a max temperature 80 celsus even after 10 hours of hard work. Controller temperature max is 60 celsus.
Considering your speed 3.5 knots @ 2.5 kW and your boat displacement I can suggest your drive work at low efficiency because of motor optimal RPM did not match your real RPM.
You have two ways to solve it: change electric motor to low RPM with higher torque or add a reduction. 
P.S. change prop to smaller one? Not a very optimal way, but it will help.

At 2.5 kW and good drive efficiency you must reach 4.5 knots of speed.
Good luck.

_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

View/Reply Online (#30212) | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute This Topic | New Topic

Your Subscription | Contact Group Owner | Unsubscribe [newarmyguitar24@gmail.com]

_._,_._,_

Re: [electricboats] Electric motor and Kelly controller overheating

[Edited Message Follows]

Hi,
I'm using a direct-drive BLDC motor and was a trouble with motor and Kelly controller overheating in the past. Problem was in high RPM motor that never can reach its optimal RPM with high torque load from big prop without reduction. Problem with overheating for both motor and controller was solver by replacing electric motor to low-RPM one, with much better torque value at low RPM. My first motor was designed to 4000 RPM, but worked at 800 RPMmax because of it's lack of torque. Second motor have max RPM 1000 and at all useful RPM range it work a max temperature 80 celsus even after 10 hours of hard work. Controller temperature max is 60 celsus.
Considering your speed 3.5 knots @ 2.5 kW and your boat displacement I can suggest your drive work at low efficiency because of motor optimal RPM did not match your real RPM.
You have two ways to solve it: change electric motor to low RPM with higher torque or add a reduction. 
P.S. change prop to smaller one? Not a very optimal way, but it will help.
Good luck.
_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

View/Reply Online (#30212) | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute This Topic | New Topic

Your Subscription | Contact Group Owner | Unsubscribe [newarmyguitar24@gmail.com]

_._,_._,_

Re: [electricboats] Electric motor and Kelly controller overheating

Hi,
I'm using a direct-drive BLDC motor and was a trouble with motor and Kelly controller overheating in the past. Problem was in high RPM motor that never can reach its optimal RPM with high torque load from big prop without reduction. Problem with overheating for both motor and controller was solver by replacing electric motor to low-RPM one, with much better torque value at low RPM. My first motor was designed to 4000 RPM, but worked at 800 RPMmax because of it's lack of torque. Second motor have max RPM 1000 and at all useful RPM range it work a max temperature 80 celsus even after 10 hours of hard work. Controller temperature max is 60 celsus.
Considering your speed 3.5 knots @ 2.5 kW and your boat displacement I can suggest your drive work at low efficiency because of motor optimal RPM did not match your real RPM.
You have two ways to solve it: change electric motor to low RPM with higher torque or add a reduction. 
Good luck.
_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

View/Reply Online (#30212) | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute This Topic | New Topic

Your Subscription | Contact Group Owner | Unsubscribe [newarmyguitar24@gmail.com]

_._,_._,_

Re: [electricboats] Electric motor and Kelly controller overheating

I would first use a thermal camera on the motor and controller while at temperature. A lose connection and/or a poorly crimped cable will introduce a significant amount of heat.  If the cables are properly sized, then they should be only slightly above ambient temperature.  


A good thermal camera can save months of blind diagnostics, also useful for finding shorts in your navigation panel.  


On Jan 29, 2020, at 5:15 PM, Mich Pop <michpop@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi
I've recently finished my conversion of a 29 Roberts 4.5 ton yacht.
1200 watt panels
270 Ah batteries at 48 volt 15s3p
Batrium BMS

My usage stats are
Rpm.    Amp.  Knots
530.     57
500.     44.       3.5
475.      38.      3.2
450.      31.      3.2
400.      25
420.      30
410.     28.    2.4
 
 
250 rpm 6 amp
400 rpm 24 amp
450 rpm 35 amp
580 rpm 63 amp
680 rpm 95 amp

We replaced a 20hp bukh diesel and left the prop and shaft as is.
Max rpm of the diesel was 2500 with a 2.5:1 reduction ratio, so max1000 rpm on the 2 bladed 400mm diameter prop. Direct drive, no gear reduction.
Good shaft alignment can be easily rotated by hand. Easy to get cavitation if you rev up too fast.

After 20 min at 500 rpm the 120 frame AC motor reaches 80 degrees Celsius and after 40 min 120 degrees Celsius. There is sufficient ventilation.

The KAC 600 amp max 72 volt Kelly controller 8080I reaches 92 degrees after 30min and reduces high rpm to around 500 rpm and keeps them there remaining at 92 degrees Celsius.

Has anybody had a similar problem and found a good solution?
I'm not interested in cooling. I want to understand why the motor overheats at 2.5kW when it is designed to run at 4kW all day.




Thank you all for your awesome inspiration over the years. Your posts have been really helpful.

Cheers Mich
<20191026_151353_HDR.jpg>


Yahoo Security Breach Proposed Settlement

[electricboats] Electric motor and Kelly controller overheating

Hi
I've recently finished my conversion of a 29 Roberts 4.5 ton yacht.
1200 watt panels
270 Ah batteries at 48 volt 15s3p
Batrium BMS

My usage stats are
Rpm.    Amp.  Knots
530.     57
500.     44.       3.5
475.      38.      3.2
450.      31.      3.2
400.      25
420.      30
410.     28.    2.4
 
 
250 rpm 6 amp
400 rpm 24 amp
450 rpm 35 amp
580 rpm 63 amp
680 rpm 95 amp

We replaced a 20hp bukh diesel and left the prop and shaft as is.
Max rpm of the diesel was 2500 with a 2.5:1 reduction ratio, so max1000 rpm on the 2 bladed 400mm diameter prop. Direct drive, no gear reduction.
Good shaft alignment can be easily rotated by hand. Easy to get cavitation if you rev up too fast.

After 20 min at 500 rpm the 120 frame AC motor reaches 80 degrees Celsius and after 40 min 120 degrees Celsius. There is sufficient ventilation.

The KAC 600 amp max 72 volt Kelly controller 8080I reaches 92 degrees after 30min and reduces high rpm to around 500 rpm and keeps them there remaining at 92 degrees Celsius.

Has anybody had a similar problem and found a good solution?
I'm not interested in cooling. I want to understand why the motor overheats at 2.5kW when it is designed to run at 4kW all day.




Thank you all for your awesome inspiration over the years. Your posts have been really helpful.

Cheers Mich

_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

View/Reply Online (#30210) | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute This Topic | New Topic

Your Subscription | Contact Group Owner | Unsubscribe [newarmyguitar24@gmail.com]

_._,_._,_

Sunday, January 26, 2020

Re: [electricboats] Solar Electric Boat Thoughts

I have a 20' aluminum pontoon powered by a Minn-Kota eDrive (2hp) 48 volt four 12 vdc lead acid batteries. I haven't measured the speed, but at one-half throttle on the speed control, the motor draws 11 amps. I would describe the speed as a "brisk walk". At full throttle, the motor draws 39-40 amps and there is certainly not a doubling of speed. Like others, you notice a lot more noise and splash around the stern. Note, I have no idea what the specs on the stainless steel propeller are, but the pitch is very shallow. With lead acid batteries, endurance at half throttle is about 7 hours, full, 1.5 hours.
_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

View/Reply Online (#30209) | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute This Topic | New Topic

Your Subscription | Contact Group Owner | Unsubscribe [newarmyguitar24@gmail.com]

_._,_._,_

Saturday, January 25, 2020

Re: [electricboats] Solar Electric Boat Thoughts

Totally agree re power vs speed. Our 20ft solar side paddle wheel punt uses just 300 watts at our 4 knots / 7km/hr cruise. We only have 60Ah of 48V battery capacity, but this would keep us going for about 5 hours if the sun isn't shining - assuming we only want to run the batteries down to 50% (AGM lead acid batteries). Opening up the throttle draws ten times the current, generates lots of noise and splash, but adds almost nothing to the speed!

Dave Wiseman
Adelaide, Australia

Re: [electricboats] EBA website down?

Website is currently being migrated to new host. Bear with us.,
_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

View/Reply Online (#30207) | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute This Topic | New Topic

Your Subscription | Contact Group Owner | Unsubscribe [newarmyguitar24@gmail.com]

_._,_._,_

Re: [electricboats] EBA website down?

I wrote this question 3 days before. And some hours later the Website was online again.
_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

View/Reply Online (#30206) | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute This Topic | New Topic

Your Subscription | Contact Group Owner | Unsubscribe [newarmyguitar24@gmail.com]

_._,_._,_

Re: [electricboats] Trolling Motor Propellers (was: propulsion Navy 3.0 Propeller Dimensions)

Kieth,  you have the right idea. I started going down that path and would have liked a slow spinning direct drive. For sake of time and money, I just gutted the Honda which wasn't running anyway. Another not so apparent benefit of an underwater direct drive unit is the lack of any sound. The Golden motor 3 KW BLDC I used is a noisy little bugger.  My use case is also different, I generally only use my dinghy to get to my mooring and back. 


Here's a few random specs

-Honda 2.3BF donor 
-Golden motor 3kw water cooled
- 52 volt 1.5 kwh (usable) Lifep04 
-4600 RPM no load at motor, 1,865 prop RPM (2.42:1) reduction
-original prop hand bent for increased pitch (higher top end) 

- 11 mile range at 3 knots 
- 5.5 mile range  4 knots  

I have only tested this setup on my west marine RU 250 roll up dinghy which is probably the least efficient hull out there.   



Matt Foley 
Sunlight Conversions
Perpetual Energy, LLC
201-914-0466


On Saturday, January 25, 2020, 10:09:02 AM EST, cpcanoesailor via Groups.Io <cpcanoesailor=yahoo.ca@groups.io> wrote:


Lots of great info has been shared already. Thanks!

I've been using APC 11x6 tractor props with Haswing trolling motors. I found I could disassemble the motor handle and mount it facing the other direction, so the prop faces forward. Then, I'm running the (brushed) motor as intended. Or, if brushless, I still can use the finer speed control provided in the forward direction. I also mounted a nose cone around the prop to reduce drag.

Re: [electricboats] Trolling Motor Propellers (was: propulsion Navy 3.0 Propeller Dimensions)

Lots of great info has been shared already. Thanks!

I've been using APC 11x6 tractor props with Haswing trolling motors. I found I could disassemble the motor handle and mount it facing the other direction, so the prop faces forward. Then, I'm running the (brushed) motor as intended. Or, if brushless, I still can use the finer speed control provided in the forward direction. I also mounted a nose cone around the prop to reduce drag.

Re: [electricboats] Trolling Motor Propellers

Thanks for the data points.  I am concerned about drawing too much current during acceleration.  If you are getting some slippage during acceleration, that is probably a good thing to prevent overloading the motor.  Eventually, I will measure the current during acceleration to verify.  The motorhead is easily reversed on my Newport Vessels motor.   I would like to figure out a radial groove type finish on the prop backplate to prevent having to modify each prop, but cutting a slot in the prop sound slike a good backup plan.
_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

View/Reply Online (#30203) | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute This Topic | New Topic

Your Subscription | Contact Group Owner | Unsubscribe [newarmyguitar24@gmail.com]

_._,_._,_

Re: [electricboats] Epropulsion Navy 3.0 Propeller Dimensions

Matt - Concur on the calculations, I cannot wait to get in the water.  For the ICE conversion, I would want to use a larger diameter propeller to increase efficiency given the energy density limitations of batteries.  Also, my overall goal is to exceed displacement speeds on a practical hull form with electric propulsion.  Most of the ICE outboards are not well configured for a large diameter propeller.  I would like to identify a brushless small cross-section low RPM motor ideal for a direct drive outboard motor configuration.  The current EV outboards seem to have a rather large price given what is actually on the inside.
_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

View/Reply Online (#30198) | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute This Topic | New Topic

Your Subscription | Contact Group Owner | Unsubscribe [newarmyguitar24@gmail.com]

_._,_._,_

Re: [electricboats] Trolling Motor Propellers

Günter - It looks like the Haswing Protruar 3.0 with a retrofitted propeller is my best bet.  Brushless, low RPM, PWM controller (I believe), and not overpriced.  I wish I had figured that out earlier.  I plan to retrofit a more hydrodynamic piece on the shaft of my trolling motor.  The golden motors are interesting for an outboard conversion with a gear reduction, but not so much for a direct drive that requires low RPM and small cross-section.  What cruising speed are you targeting for the Kat?  With anticipated advancements (~5 years) in battery energy densities, a battery-powered Kat could soon be a very capable and practical craft that exceeds displacement speeds.  That might be a future project for me.
_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

View/Reply Online (#30197) | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute This Topic | New Topic

Your Subscription | Contact Group Owner | Unsubscribe [newarmyguitar24@gmail.com]

_._,_._,_

Re: [electricboats] Solar Electric Boat Thoughts

I would second Phil's findings about exponential increases in power demand for linear increases in speed, even below the max "hull speed" of the boat.  You can achieve higher than hull speeds for a little while, but not with an off the shelf trolling motor.

I have settled on 5 mph with the 17 foot canoe and about 4 mph with a 26 foot retrofitted sailboat. 

Going down stream with the current is great fun, all day (0830 - 1700 on a sunny day at 37 degrees Lat)  putter back upstream with the gas outboard (Yes, that is cheating).

RE: Mounting the Airplane Props:  The 10X4 P LH Prop from APC comes with a slot for the trolling motor sheer pin.  I use a 3/8" X 3/8" X 1" Nylon barrel spacer (white) from Home Depot to fill the gap between the shaft nut and the prop,
For other props that don't have the slot, I melt a slot in the hub by heating a sheer pin on a spindle with a blow torch then pressing it down to the desired depth.  I tried some composite fiberglass props and ground the sheer pin slot with a Dremel tool, but the speed/efficiency performance of those props didn't improve on what the plastic !0X4 P-LH gave me.

Trick is to get everything centered and the slot of equal depth if you are grinding your own sheer pin slot and drilling out the shaft hole.

Final note, these RC Airplane props don't fare so well in weedy waters.  Part of the trolling motor stock prop design is to reduce weed tangles.  These RC props will wind weeds like linguini.

Ken Cooke
Lexington, KY USA



On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 9:16 PM Phil Boyer via Groups.Io <philaboyer=yahoo.ca@groups.io> wrote:
Hi there, I don't think I have posted before so I thought I would post with my thoughts on solar electric boats which I have one of. It is a 18' wood strip based on an old design from the last century called a "Disappearing Propeller boat".
My experience with my solar electric boat has been that solar electric powered boats make perfect sense if you want to go more on the slow side such as 6 m/hr (10km'hr). I have found the optimal speed for my boat is 5m/hr (8 km/hr) but my boat design is a displacement hull with a hull speed of about 6.8 m/hr (11 km/hr). As I start to increase the speed from slow to fast the current draw goes up exponentially. If I maintain my cruising speed of 5 m/hr I can travel all day if it is sunny. I have a Torqeedo 2.0 Cruise motor, 221 amp hr battery bank (lead acid golf cart batteries) and 860 watts of flexible solar panels on the canopy. I can travel for 8 hours, stop for the night and while I am stopped the batteries keep charging so in the morning I am at least in the 95% state of charge. If I have a cloudy day I simply reduce my speed and I will draw exponentially less power. I have used this management of battery power for some major trips, one of which I was out for 16 days and solely relied on solar power. I am now building a catamaran 18' long and the plan is to power it by a 20HP motor. I am thinking of an Elco which is just under 9KW. For this configuration I would be into a very large battery bank minimum 16 KW and I could put 1800 watts of solar power to assist. But the solar production for this arrangement would no longer do very much and to recharge the bank would take a couple of days at least. So my thinking is still cruise at a slow speed perhaps 7.5 to 8.5 m/hr (12 to 14 km/hr) but have the option to go fast when required. It all will come down to battery management.
Here is a link to my channel where I have documented my trips.
 
Regards
Phil

Hi there, my experience with my solar electric boat has been that solar electric powered boats make perfect sense if you want to go more on the slow side such as 6 m/hr (10km'hr). I have found the optimal speed for my boat is 5m/hr (8 km/hr) but my boat design is a displacement hull with a hull speed of about 6.8 m/hr (11 km/hr). As I start to increase the speed from slow to fast the current draw goes up exponentially. If I maintain my cruising speed of 5 m/hr I can travel all day if it is sunny. I have a Torqeedo 2.0 Cruise motor, 221 amp hr battery bank (lead acid golf cart batteries) and 860 watts of flexible solar panels on the canopy. I can travel for 8 hours, stop for the night and while I am stopped the batteries keep charging so in the morning I am at least in the 95% state of charge. If I have a cloudy day I simply reduce my speed and I will draw exponentially less power. I have used this management of battery power for some major trips, one of which I was out for 16 days and solely relied on solar power. I am now building a catamaran 18' long and the plan is to power it by a 20HP motor. I am thinking of an Elco which is just under 9KW. For this configuration I would be into a very large battery bank minimum 16 KW and I could put 1800 watts of solar power to assist. But the solar production for this arrangement would no longer do very much and to recharge the bank would take a couple of days at least. So my thinking is still cruise at a slow speed perhaps 7.5 to 8.5 m/hr (12 to 14 km/hr) but have the option to go fast when required. It all will come down to battery management.
Here is a link to my channel where I have documented my trips.
 
Regards
Phil

 

_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

View/Reply Online (#30196) | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute This Topic | New Topic

Your Subscription | Contact Group Owner | Unsubscribe [newarmyguitar24@gmail.com]

_._,_._,_

Re: [electricboats] Trolling Motor Propellers

Keith
In the last two years I was able to test my trolling motors but with a not fitting boat. The boat was a small (3.9 m) RIP runabout for up to 50 HP engine. My trolling motors are 960 Watt and 1,400 W Haswing Protruar 2.0 and 3.0 outboards . These outboards have a direct drive with brushless motor and internal electronic speed controller (ESC). Because these type of boat hull keeps poorly track at low speed and wasted energy at its stern going displacement speeds. The motors didn't work bad, but I found the 28 mm shaft a bit weak and its circular cross section has an unnecessary drag. Because I'm building a Kat I will use 2 motors one at the stern of each hull (outboard or may be kind of pod). Tiller steering will be not possible with 2 outboards 1.9 m apart. So I will have to change some things or build my drives myself. I'm planning now tu use the Protruar as retractable bow-thruster. For the drives I ordered brushless motors from China (Golden motor), watercooled, 3 kW each and VESCs (Vedder ESC) to control them. Like you, I'm not able to measure the rpm under water, but the VESC is able not only to feed the motor best possible but also to read a lot of data and provide it to the user. I will see if this promises will be kept. 
_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

View/Reply Online (#30195) | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute This Topic | New Topic

Your Subscription | Contact Group Owner | Unsubscribe [newarmyguitar24@gmail.com]

_._,_._,_

Friday, January 24, 2020

Re: [electricboats] Epropulsion Navy 3.0 Propeller Dimensions

Calculations only go so far. Even when you buy a prop from a major prop manufacturer and install it on a a production boat with with a known motor, its still trial and error. If its a plastic prop, you can heat it up and change the pitch by hand.  You will lose performance, since each blade will be slightly different, but if your amp draw and/or speed are better than stock you are ahead of the game.  

I converted a Honda 2.3 to 3 KW  (pics on my instagram). With batteries, it cost around $1100. Cheaper than anything comparable,and totally doable but its not for the faint of heart. 


Matt Foley 
Sunlight Conversions
Perpetual Energy, LLC
201-914-0466


On Friday, January 24, 2020, 08:35:59 PM EST, Keith M <penobscot17@comcast.net> wrote:


SW - I will post the results, but probably not until Spring when the water warms up...

Myles - Thanks for the info.  The combination of the human-powered examples along with the information on JavaProp convinced me to buy a RC plane pusher propeller as the first retrofit.  The human-powered examples concerned me a little bit given that the RPM is typically much lower (~360 RPM), and the airfoil shape on the blades could cause cavitation.  I suspect that the trolling motor RPM will still be below the cavitation speed given how much the pitch decays on the outer diameter of the blades.

Matthew - Unfortunately, you are probably correct.  A much lesser problem, I also suspect that the direction of the threads on the motor shaft are optimized for the forward direction.

[electricboats] Solar Electric Boat Thoughts

Hi there, I don't think I have posted before so I thought I would post with my thoughts on solar electric boats which I have one of. It is a 18' wood strip based on an old design from the last century called a "Disappearing Propeller boat".
My experience with my solar electric boat has been that solar electric powered boats make perfect sense if you want to go more on the slow side such as 6 m/hr (10km'hr). I have found the optimal speed for my boat is 5m/hr (8 km/hr) but my boat design is a displacement hull with a hull speed of about 6.8 m/hr (11 km/hr). As I start to increase the speed from slow to fast the current draw goes up exponentially. If I maintain my cruising speed of 5 m/hr I can travel all day if it is sunny. I have a Torqeedo 2.0 Cruise motor, 221 amp hr battery bank (lead acid golf cart batteries) and 860 watts of flexible solar panels on the canopy. I can travel for 8 hours, stop for the night and while I am stopped the batteries keep charging so in the morning I am at least in the 95% state of charge. If I have a cloudy day I simply reduce my speed and I will draw exponentially less power. I have used this management of battery power for some major trips, one of which I was out for 16 days and solely relied on solar power. I am now building a catamaran 18' long and the plan is to power it by a 20HP motor. I am thinking of an Elco which is just under 9KW. For this configuration I would be into a very large battery bank minimum 16 KW and I could put 1800 watts of solar power to assist. But the solar production for this arrangement would no longer do very much and to recharge the bank would take a couple of days at least. So my thinking is still cruise at a slow speed perhaps 7.5 to 8.5 m/hr (12 to 14 km/hr) but have the option to go fast when required. It all will come down to battery management.
Here is a link to my channel where I have documented my trips.
 
Regards
Phil

Hi there, my experience with my solar electric boat has been that solar electric powered boats make perfect sense if you want to go more on the slow side such as 6 m/hr (10km'hr). I have found the optimal speed for my boat is 5m/hr (8 km/hr) but my boat design is a displacement hull with a hull speed of about 6.8 m/hr (11 km/hr). As I start to increase the speed from slow to fast the current draw goes up exponentially. If I maintain my cruising speed of 5 m/hr I can travel all day if it is sunny. I have a Torqeedo 2.0 Cruise motor, 221 amp hr battery bank (lead acid golf cart batteries) and 860 watts of flexible solar panels on the canopy. I can travel for 8 hours, stop for the night and while I am stopped the batteries keep charging so in the morning I am at least in the 95% state of charge. If I have a cloudy day I simply reduce my speed and I will draw exponentially less power. I have used this management of battery power for some major trips, one of which I was out for 16 days and solely relied on solar power. I am now building a catamaran 18' long and the plan is to power it by a 20HP motor. I am thinking of an Elco which is just under 9KW. For this configuration I would be into a very large battery bank minimum 16 KW and I could put 1800 watts of solar power to assist. But the solar production for this arrangement would no longer do very much and to recharge the bank would take a couple of days at least. So my thinking is still cruise at a slow speed perhaps 7.5 to 8.5 m/hr (12 to 14 km/hr) but have the option to go fast when required. It all will come down to battery management.
Here is a link to my channel where I have documented my trips.
 
Regards
Phil

 
_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

View/Reply Online (#30193) | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute This Topic | New Topic

Your Subscription | Contact Group Owner | Unsubscribe [newarmyguitar24@gmail.com]

_._,_._,_

Re: [electricboats] Trolling Motor Propellers

Günter - Based on the materials I read, I am expecting a prop slip in the 10 to 15% range.  I derated the prop RPM to 1,500 RPM, but that was just a guess.  I am interested to learn more about the actual RPM that I should expect given that my optical RPM meter is not going to work underwater.  The 10 MPH is certainly the upper limit, the goal is to maximize the performance with the given motor.  Anything above hull speed is a win over the performance of my canoes.  If I get 1.5X hull speed, I will be very happy.  I am also interested in brushless motors, given the 10 to 15% increase in efficiency over brushed motors.  I am interested if you have a particular source or idea for a brushless motor setup.  I have been looking for a donor ICE outboard to convert, but I have not had any luck yet.  I am not ready to pay the big bucks for the EV outboards that are commercially available...
_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

View/Reply Online (#30191) | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute This Topic | New Topic

Your Subscription | Contact Group Owner | Unsubscribe [newarmyguitar24@gmail.com]

_._,_._,_

Re: [electricboats] Epropulsion Navy 3.0 Propeller Dimensions

SW - I will post the results, but probably not until Spring when the water warms up...

Myles - Thanks for the info.  The combination of the human-powered examples along with the information on JavaProp convinced me to buy a RC plane pusher propeller as the first retrofit.  The human-powered examples concerned me a little bit given that the RPM is typically much lower (~360 RPM), and the airfoil shape on the blades could cause cavitation.  I suspect that the trolling motor RPM will still be below the cavitation speed given how much the pitch decays on the outer diameter of the blades.

Matthew - Unfortunately, you are probably correct.  A much lesser problem, I also suspect that the direction of the threads on the motor shaft are optimized for the forward direction.
_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

View/Reply Online (#30192) | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute This Topic | New Topic

Your Subscription | Contact Group Owner | Unsubscribe [newarmyguitar24@gmail.com]

_._,_._,_

Re: [electricboats] Trolling Motor Propellers (was: propulsion Navy 3.0 Propeller Dimensions)

John - I second the feedback EP Carry video.  The emergency props are interesting, but the 19" pitch is very high.

Ken - Great info on the plane props.  I actually ordered the Master Screw 15x7 3 blade pusher propeller a couple of days ago.  Do you have any details or advice on how to mount the propeller?  I plan to turn an aluminum backplate that accepts the drive pin through the shaft, but I am not certain of how to best get adequate friction between the backplate and propeller.  I bought the larger diameter prop with the intent to reduce the diameter to match the motor capability and to also have a slightly heavier blade cross-section.  Perhaps it will be less of a consumable item, but then again I am sure it will still be vulnerable...
_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

View/Reply Online (#30190) | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute This Topic | New Topic

Your Subscription | Contact Group Owner | Unsubscribe [newarmyguitar24@gmail.com]

_._,_._,_

Re: [electricboats] Trolling Motor Propellers (was: propulsion Navy 3.0 Propeller Dimensions)

The marine robotics group where I work use model aeroplane props on their robot sub. Mostly because they are cheap and readily available. Commercial ROV props are quite expensive and while more efficient as they are designed especially for the job, the extra efficiency wasn't worth the extra cost.

They just borrowed props off the aerial robotics guys till they found one that worked well :-)




_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

View/Reply Online (#30189) | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute This Topic | New Topic

Your Subscription | Contact Group Owner | Unsubscribe [newarmyguitar24@gmail.com]

_._,_._,_

Re: [electricboats] Trolling Motor Propellers (was: propulsion Navy 3.0 Propeller Dimensions)

Thanks for sharing the EP Carry Video.  A close look at that prop compares with the same material as the Model Airplane Props I am purchasing from APC Propeller for our electric trolling motors.

  • 10 inch diameter
  • 4" Pitch
  • "Pusher"
  • Left Hand Pitch.
Make sure the prop pitch matches the rotation of your particular electric motor.
  • When using the stock Minn-Kota prop 3.5 mph costs me 40 amps at 12.8 volts.
  • When using the 10x4P-LH prop I get 5.1 mph at 31 amps
I am pushing a 17' Alumacraft CO-17 Square Stern Canoe with a battery/solar panel/pilot 350 Pound payload.


The props are consumable, meaning if you drag them across a gravel bar or hit a snag with them, most likely you will nick/warp/chip the prop.  But at $3.95 + shipping each, you can keep a tackle box full of them with you.  It takes me 4 minutes to swap a prop.

Thanks,

Ken







On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 4:40 PM John Kohnen <jkohnen@boat-links.com> wrote:
The early Electric Paddle outboards used model airplane propellers, and
the current models use props very like those on model airplanes:

http://www.electricpaddle.com/

Company founder Joe Grez did the entire 2019 Salish 100 using nothing
but solar power:

https://flic.kr/p/2gB9w6t

https://flic.kr/p/2gGQwZm

The trouble with putting better props on trolling motors is that the
submerged motor blocks a big part of the center of the prop...

A friend of mine got a couple of these plastic emergency props to try on
his twin 80 lb. thrust trolling motor drive, but the clearance under his
boat is so small he'll have to trim the diameter quite a bit:

https://www.ebay.com/p/10017019564

I think Merc has discontinues these...


On 1/24/2020 6:13 AM, Myles T wrote:
> I'd recommend looking at what has been done for propeller-driven
> pedal-power drives.  Model airplane style propellers have been used
> effectively for these to drive kayaks at around 10kts.
 > ...

--
John <jkohnen@boat-links.com>
Winter, a lingering season, is a time to gather golden moments, embark
upon a sentimental journey, and enjoy every idle hour. (John Boswell)





_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

View/Reply Online (#30188) | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute This Topic | New Topic

Your Subscription | Contact Group Owner | Unsubscribe [newarmyguitar24@gmail.com]

_._,_._,_

[electricboats] Trolling Motor Propellers (was: propulsion Navy 3.0 Propeller Dimensions)

The early Electric Paddle outboards used model airplane propellers, and
the current models use props very like those on model airplanes:

http://www.electricpaddle.com/

Company founder Joe Grez did the entire 2019 Salish 100 using nothing
but solar power:

https://flic.kr/p/2gB9w6t

https://flic.kr/p/2gGQwZm

The trouble with putting better props on trolling motors is that the
submerged motor blocks a big part of the center of the prop...

A friend of mine got a couple of these plastic emergency props to try on
his twin 80 lb. thrust trolling motor drive, but the clearance under his
boat is so small he'll have to trim the diameter quite a bit:

https://www.ebay.com/p/10017019564

I think Merc has discontinues these...


On 1/24/2020 6:13 AM, Myles T wrote:
> I'd recommend looking at what has been done for propeller-driven
> pedal-power drives.  Model airplane style propellers have been used
> effectively for these to drive kayaks at around 10kts.
> ...

--
John <jkohnen@boat-links.com>
Winter, a lingering season, is a time to gather golden moments, embark
upon a sentimental journey, and enjoy every idle hour. (John Boswell)


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group.

View/Reply Online (#30187): https://groups.io/g/electricboats/message/30187
Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/70081969/3360820
Group Owner: electricboats+owner@groups.io
Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/electricboats/leave/6293187/430022002/xyzzy [newarmyguitar24@gmail.com]
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Re: [electricboats] Epropulsion Navy 3.0 Propeller Dimensions






The trolling motor is a brushed DC motor, so I believe there is no change in performance for clockwise vs counterclockwise rotation.  The wires are easily reversed on the output of the speed selector switch and the speed resistors are not sensitive to polarity. 

The motor may have the same performance in either direction, but the brushes may wear faster in the counter direction.
The 'timing' of the brushes alters with direction and speed, something complex to do with the back emf causing the fields to 'rotate' slightly.
This effect causes arcing of the commutator. The science and the maths behind is complex field theory and I can't actually get my head around it.
If a motor is intended to run primarily in a particular direction at a particular speed they will rotate the brush assembly slightly to the 'neutral timed' point to reduce arcing and brush/commutator wear.

The Perm 132 brushed permanent magnet motor I use in my boat is 'timed' for a certain direction. I actually operate it in reverse. However, I'm using the motor at about half it's rated voltage and power output. The manufacturer actually notes in the manual that if you run the motor on full voltage, it should be run in the correct direction most of the time to minimise brush wear, but that below a certain voltage there is no appreciable difference.

The large motors used in trams and trains have something called 'interpoles' between the field coils, are connected in series with the armature and these interpoles 'correct' the rotation of the field neutral point and keep commutator always in the 'neutral' point. They do this as the motors have to run equally well in both directions and at the power output of these things any arcing is undesirable. The similar (but smaller!) motors used in the air compressors on the same vehicles do not have interpoles, but the brush assembly is rotated slightly to the neutral point for the direction of operation.

_._,_._,_

_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

View/Reply Online (#30186) | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute This Topic | New Topic

Your Subscription | Contact Group Owner | Unsubscribe [newarmyguitar24@gmail.com]

_._,_._,_