Tuesday, November 30, 2010

Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Stiletto conversion

 

Thanks, I promise I'll do my homework first and after sailing her silly I'll had the weight and see how she sails.    I think even moving the weight around to different areas might help.   I'm a tester, love to test and sea what's the best, something to the determent of finishing but I seem to get things done at my pace..  Dave K


From: Richard Mair <fullkeel2000@yahoo.ca>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, November 30, 2010 6:30:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Stiletto conversion



You could try just adding the weight of the batteries first before taking the plunge
Richard.

--- On Tue, 11/30/10, Dave Kellogg <inganear1@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Dave Kellogg <inganear1@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Stiletto conversion
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Received: Tuesday, November 30, 2010, 2:13 PM

 

Eric,  I do know what you are talking about poundage wise and I plan on sailing myself silly just the way she is before making any significant changes...  I've got an 8 hp Johnson 2 stroke right now and a 3 gal tank...    if I go electric and I probably will it will be with a LiPo pack and an Etek, I have 4 motors to choose from, 3 brush and 1 brushless.   I don't run around any more, don't drink or spend time chasing things that I know I don't want so I spend my money on the passions that I have, sailing and electric projects..  got to love what you're doing...    This stiletto 26 is a conversion built by one of the engineers wanting to make a week long camping, beach-able cat with sleep aboard capabilities...  The design never took off  but the boat is solid and I like it, with a few astatic changes it could be a great looking boat, so far the performance is good but I haven't really pushed her.   I am in the process of building a new boom because I picked up an F24 mainsail the other day and I need 12 Ft and only have 10 on the boom...  should be fun with that roachie monster on board..   I also have a 20 meter sailkite that I want to try, have you ever seen one of these on a boat first hand?    I've seen them on Utube, actually on a 24 tri in Hawaii....   Dave K   Thanks for the welcome to the fast side of the tracks..  chuckle

--- On Tue, 11/30/10, Eric <ewdysar@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Eric <ewdysar@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Stiletto conversion
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, November 30, 2010, 1:33 PM

I couldn't find any specs for a Stiletto 26 but the 27's range from 1100 pounds for the base model to the 27SE at 1550 pounds.  Coming from a mono, you probably won't mind sacrificing the 22kt top speed, but you will find that these boats don't handle extra weight very well.  This includes tacking and regular sailing.

I know I've said similar things before, but imagine your boat with a regular engine (a less than 10hp outboard in your case) and a gas tank that only holds one gallon.  Convert the drive to electric and the one gallon gas tank weighs more than 500 pounds in AGM or FLA batteries.  Cut the weight in half and the tank gets reduced by about 60% due to Peukert's Effect.  So for the weight of a fairly hefty crewman, you get the equivalent of a little more than 6 cups of gas.

If that is OK, great.  I only bring this up so that you can understand the tradeoff.  I suggest that you sail the boat as is, before you convert it, just to get a feel for a performance multi.

One of the original proponents for ULDB boats, Bill Lee, said it best, "Fast is Fun!" and I have observed that lighter is faster.  Welcome to the dark side....

Fair winds,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA






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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Stiletto conversion

 

You could try just adding the weight of the batteries first before taking the plunge
Richard.

--- On Tue, 11/30/10, Dave Kellogg <inganear1@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Dave Kellogg <inganear1@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Stiletto conversion
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Received: Tuesday, November 30, 2010, 2:13 PM

 

Eric,  I do know what you are talking about poundage wise and I plan on sailing myself silly just the way she is before making any significant changes...  I've got an 8 hp Johnson 2 stroke right now and a 3 gal tank...    if I go electric and I probably will it will be with a LiPo pack and an Etek, I have 4 motors to choose from, 3 brush and 1 brushless.   I don't run around any more, don't drink or spend time chasing things that I know I don't want so I spend my money on the passions that I have, sailing and electric projects..  got to love what you're doing...    This stiletto 26 is a conversion built by one of the engineers wanting to make a week long camping, beach-able cat with sleep aboard capabilities...  The design never took off  but the boat is solid and I like it, with a few astatic changes it could be a great looking boat, so far the performance is good but I haven't really pushed her.   I am in the process of building a new boom because I picked up an F24 mainsail the other day and I need 12 Ft and only have 10 on the boom...  should be fun with that roachie monster on board..   I also have a 20 meter sailkite that I want to try, have you ever seen one of these on a boat first hand?    I've seen them on Utube, actually on a 24 tri in Hawaii....   Dave K   Thanks for the welcome to the fast side of the tracks..  chuckle

--- On Tue, 11/30/10, Eric <ewdysar@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Eric <ewdysar@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Stiletto conversion
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, November 30, 2010, 1:33 PM

I couldn't find any specs for a Stiletto 26 but the 27's range from 1100 pounds for the base model to the 27SE at 1550 pounds.  Coming from a mono, you probably won't mind sacrificing the 22kt top speed, but you will find that these boats don't handle extra weight very well.  This includes tacking and regular sailing.

I know I've said similar things before, but imagine your boat with a regular engine (a less than 10hp outboard in your case) and a gas tank that only holds one gallon.  Convert the drive to electric and the one gallon gas tank weighs more than 500 pounds in AGM or FLA batteries.  Cut the weight in half and the tank gets reduced by about 60% due to Peukert's Effect.  So for the weight of a fairly hefty crewman, you get the equivalent of a little more than 6 cups of gas.

If that is OK, great.  I only bring this up so that you can understand the tradeoff.  I suggest that you sail the boat as is, before you convert it, just to get a feel for a performance multi.

One of the original proponents for ULDB boats, Bill Lee, said it best, "Fast is Fun!" and I have observed that lighter is faster.  Welcome to the dark side....

Fair winds,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA



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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27

 

Ron, 
Real engineers think, then if they are lucky, they can put things together...haha  and if they are really lucky they have the money to make a few things happen..  We continue to build, if we don't the world crumbles around us...  explore and have fun doing it...  electric is here to stay...   storage is catching up, but isn't there yet...  Dave K

--- On Tue, 11/30/10, Ron <rlgravel@swbell.net> wrote:

From: Ron <rlgravel@swbell.net>
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, November 30, 2010, 2:07 PM

Thanks Dave,
I would love to be part of a "session" but not being a real engineer, I tend to clear a room pretty quick :)
I have many ideas, but not being smart enough to prove they would work, I have been smart enough (or not rich enough) to "not" lose money trying to build some of them.
I hope I'm correct in my thinking "we have a solution that is possible, if we can just push aside all the impossible things that keep it invisible to our minds".

Ron



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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Stiletto conversion

 

Eric,  I do know what you are talking about poundage wise and I plan on sailing myself silly just the way she is before making any significant changes...  I've got an 8 hp Johnson 2 stroke right now and a 3 gal tank...    if I go electric and I probably will it will be with a LiPo pack and an Etek, I have 4 motors to choose from, 3 brush and 1 brushless.   I don't run around any more, don't drink or spend time chasing things that I know I don't want so I spend my money on the passions that I have, sailing and electric projects..  got to love what you're doing...    This stiletto 26 is a conversion built by one of the engineers wanting to make a week long camping, beach-able cat with sleep aboard capabilities...  The design never took off  but the boat is solid and I like it, with a few astatic changes it could be a great looking boat, so far the performance is good but I haven't really pushed her.   I am in the process of building a new boom because I picked up an F24 mainsail the other day and I need 12 Ft and only have 10 on the boom...  should be fun with that roachie monster on board..   I also have a 20 meter sailkite that I want to try, have you ever seen one of these on a boat first hand?    I've seen them on Utube, actually on a 24 tri in Hawaii....   Dave K   Thanks for the welcome to the fast side of the tracks..  chuckle

--- On Tue, 11/30/10, Eric <ewdysar@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Eric <ewdysar@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Stiletto conversion
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, November 30, 2010, 1:33 PM

I couldn't find any specs for a Stiletto 26 but the 27's range from 1100 pounds for the base model to the 27SE at 1550 pounds.  Coming from a mono, you probably won't mind sacrificing the 22kt top speed, but you will find that these boats don't handle extra weight very well.  This includes tacking and regular sailing.

I know I've said similar things before, but imagine your boat with a regular engine (a less than 10hp outboard in your case) and a gas tank that only holds one gallon.  Convert the drive to electric and the one gallon gas tank weighs more than 500 pounds in AGM or FLA batteries.  Cut the weight in half and the tank gets reduced by about 60% due to Peukert's Effect.  So for the weight of a fairly hefty crewman, you get the equivalent of a little more than 6 cups of gas.

If that is OK, great.  I only bring this up so that you can understand the tradeoff.  I suggest that you sail the boat as is, before you convert it, just to get a feel for a performance multi.

One of the original proponents for ULDB boats, Bill Lee, said it best, "Fast is Fun!" and I have observed that lighter is faster.  Welcome to the dark side....

Fair winds,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA


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[Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27

 

Thanks Dave,
I would love to be part of a "session" but not being a real engineer, I tend to clear a room pretty quick :)
I have many ideas, but not being smart enough to prove they would work, I have been smart enough (or not rich enough) to "not" lose money trying to build some of them.
I hope I'm correct in my thinking "we have a solution that is possible, if we can just push aside all the impossible things that keep it invisible to our minds".

Ron

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Dave Kellogg <inganear1@...> wrote:
>
> Ron, have you ever gone to a "brain storm session", we used to have them at
> Apple all the time and you could throw out any thoughts that came to mind.
> This idea isn't so far fetched at all, it just needs room. I may be a little
> of a maniac but I have 4 sailboats from 17 to 37 on deck so it gives me a wide
> range of test platforms, love it... What does and old retired, tired inganear
> do? He works on projects... chuckle Who said we have to stay
> conventional?.... out of the box thoughts are accepted, at least by me..
> chuckle... if you have a chance take a look at the Redeemed album, needed a
> total rebuild, it would have been a reef if anyone else would have got her...
> Dave K
> PS: if anyone is looking for a perfect platform for a slippery electric
> sailboat conversion that is a solid boat a friend of mine has one. James
> Baldwin has an Alberg 30 on a trailer in southeast Georgia that would be
> perfect, all the rigging and sails, just needs the interior and what ever
> auxiliary power you want to put in it.. I believe he has it on his web site
> www.atomvoyages.com
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Ron <rlgravel@...>
> To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 2:35:15 PM
> Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
>
> Dave, Sorry if I posted out of context, it was a flash of mechanics and no
> thought of restrictions of the present hull.
> If it has any value at all, it might require a complete new boat design to make
> it practical.
>
> Ron
>
> --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Dave Kellogg <inganear1@> wrote:
> >
> > Question Ron, how much room do you have under your waterline? I only had
> > enough room for a 14 inch prop and a 1 inch cross section nozzle, and I had to
>
> > make some real changes in my rudder... Room is the problem.. Dave K
> >
> > PS... I have some pictures in the album section.
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Ron <rlgravel@>
> > To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 1:58:40 PM
> > Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
> >
> > Dave,
> > You made a great point about weight, a large mass in motion will be less
> > sensitive to extracting a regen value.
> > I'll throw out an idea, but will not try to explain in too much detail, as I
> >can
> >
> > never say things just right.
> >
> > A two function design using the nozzle you mention, a small high speed power
> > prop inside the nozzle and the nozzle turns as a large regen unit, having
> > several blades on the outside diameter that can be feathered for least
> > resistance when the power prop is in use, then feathered for maximum regen when
> >
> > being powered by wind or current movment.
> > So basiclly a two prop system. Massive torque and high speed power seem to
> > always be on opposite ends of where they are needed.
> >
> > Ron
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>

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[Electric Boats] Re: Stiletto conversion

 

I couldn't find any specs for a Stiletto 26 but the 27's range from 1100 pounds for the base model to the 27SE at 1550 pounds. Coming from a mono, you probably won't mind sacrificing the 22kt top speed, but you will find that these boats don't handle extra weight very well. This includes tacking and regular sailing.

I know I've said similar things before, but imagine your boat with a regular engine (a less than 10hp outboard in your case) and a gas tank that only holds one gallon. Convert the drive to electric and the one gallon gas tank weighs more than 500 pounds in AGM or FLA batteries. Cut the weight in half and the tank gets reduced by about 60% due to Peukert's Effect. So for the weight of a fairly hefty crewman, you get the equivalent of a little more than 6 cups of gas.

If that is OK, great. I only bring this up so that you can understand the tradeoff. I suggest that you sail the boat as is, before you convert it, just to get a feel for a performance multi.

One of the original proponents for ULDB boats, Bill Lee, said it best, "Fast is Fun!" and I have observed that lighter is faster. Welcome to the dark side....

Fair winds,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Dave Kellogg <inganear1@...> wrote:
>
> Eric,
> I understand were your coming from on the electric drive for your Tri and not
> wanting the weight of the batteries. Something that the multi hullers should
> also consider is the fact that the multi's are much, much slipperier than the
> sleekest mono. The battery bank could be much smaller and if balanced in the
> hull or hulls on a Cat the weight would be noticed less in performance. I just
> bought a 26 Sitletto and will probably go electric with it, maybe a little
> different from the normal electric hung off the back or through a hull. I'll
> run the electric drive in a center pod under the deck and a long shaft on a
> pivot to extract totally while sailing. I can split the bank and install them
> closer to the center of the hulls for better weight distribution. I've been a
> mono sailor all my life and I'm kinda excited about having these 2 Cat's to play
> with... Dave K
>

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Monday, November 29, 2010

Re: [Electric Boats] Re: more regen conversation

 

Eric,
I understand were your coming from on the electric drive for your Tri and not wanting the weight of the batteries.   Something that the multi hullers should also consider is the fact that the multi's are much, much slipperier than the sleekest mono.  The battery bank could be much smaller and if balanced in the hull or hulls on a Cat the weight would be noticed less in performance.   I just bought a 26 Sitletto and will probably go electric with it, maybe a little different from the normal electric hung off the back or through a hull.  I'll run the electric drive in a center pod under the deck and a long shaft on a pivot to extract totally while sailing.   I can split the bank and install them closer to the center of the hulls for better weight distribution.   I've been a mono sailor all my life and I'm kinda excited about having these 2 Cat's to play with...  Dave K


From: Eric <ewdysar@yahoo.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 6:52:33 PM
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: more regen conversation

Larry,

As the most visible "regen naysayer" here, the link that you provided completely supports my previous premise. 

According to the Whoosh site "... And since we average 5-6 kts, that's over 100 amp/hrs/day – for us quite possibly 150 amp/hrs/day – that is available for running the radar at night, making water with offshore water quality, feeding the SSB radio, and keeping the iPod charged..."  So what does this mean?  They get 100-150Ah at 12V in 24 hours, that's 1200-1800Wh in 24 hours or 50-75W at 5-6kts.  They do say that the harvested water power is sufficicient for house loads, a statement that I wholeheartedly agree with.

My statement is (and always has been) that regen at speeds around 5kts is not a viable source of charging for a traction battery bank.  The speed is important because most displacement auxilliary sailboats between 27-32 feet (optimal for a 5kW electric drive) have a hard time hitting sustained runs above 6 kts.  For this size boat, average sailing speeds of about 5.5kts is more realistic. 

So let's say that you use 4kWh of energy out of your 10kWh battery bank, that's about 10-12nm at 4kts in most of our boats.  How far would you have to sail using the system described by Whoosh to bring your batteries back to full charge, assuming that you are using no electrical power in the mean time?  Generating 75W at 6kts, that's 12.5Wh/nm.  So 4kWh will take 320nm of sailing at 6kts and will take over 53 hours.  Slow down to 5kts under sail and the recharge distance is up to 400nm and will take 80 hours.  If you have a 12V house load of only 2A, the recharge times and distances double.

Ignoring house loads, the ratio of drive distance (at 4kts) to regen distance (at 5kts) is about 1 to 40.  Motor one mile at 4kts (15 minutes) and you need to sail 40 miles at 5kts (8 hours) to get the charge back.  If you use a radio, autopilot or lights, the ratio gets worse.

So regen works, but is not as effective at recharging your traction batteries as some drive vendors would like you to believe.

Fair winds,
Eric
Marina del Rey

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Doyle" <ldoyle@...> wrote:
>
> Here's to those NaySayers that say regen doesn't work.  Here's some boats that are doing it using towed gens as well as the free wheeling the prop/dc motor in regen mode.
>
> www.svsarah.com/Whoosh/WhooshPacificPrepTowGenerator.html
>




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Re: [Electric Boats] AC vs DC Motor

 

I have 36' steel sailboat so unless batteries get better and cheeper I will be using a 5 to 10 kw generator.


From: Orest Iwaszko <orestyko@hotmail.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 12:07:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] AC vs DC Motor

 

i too am interested in using AC      you must have a generator I presume ... wondering how many kw?      Wil be following this thread  .    I heard  that 2kw produces around 1 hp'    


On 2010-11-24, at 9:22 PM, akenai wrote:

 



I have been looking at the AC-13 or AC-15 AC Motors they are large enough to use on my 36' steel hull, But I have not found much info that I could understand as to compair them to DC motors other than the few DC drives that are in the higher hp range and then the cost gets to extreme. www.thunderstruck-ev.com carries the set as well as
www.currentevtech.com These look like a nice package and the price dosent seam to bad.
Anyone familer with these? Arby talked about AC awhile back.

Aaron



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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Alberg 30

 

Check out Triton called "Atom" he made some stands so that you can stand it up on the beach at low tide. Really cool. Triton has the same draft as the Alberg 30.

Dan

--- On Mon, 11/29/10, Eric <ewdysar@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Eric <ewdysar@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Alberg 30
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, November 29, 2010, 6:57 PM

 

According to the Alberg 30 site, the draft is 4'3", not exactly shoal draft but a ways from 6ft. But any full keel boat isn't going to respond well to laying on the beach, even my Bermuda 30 at 3'8".

I'm interested to hear what type of sailboat that you are considering if you're planning on beaching it. I know that there are a couple of designs from areas with outrageous tidal variances, boats with twin keels that remain standing up when the water disappears.

I guess that a centerboarder would do OK when beached, but you should have some braces on lines that can help keep the boat upright as the tide receeds. The other option is a multihull, but the weight of an electric drive with batteries will definately influence your sailing performance.

Fair winds,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Bill Spires <spiresac@...> wrote:
>
> Depending on how far the class will let you go and what type of conversion you
> install you may make the boat ineligible for one design fleet racing or you may
> just make it non-competitive. The Alberg 30 class seems to have fairly loose
> rules about engine mods so you may be ok. For me the 6 ft draft was a deal
> killer. I am building an electric boat i can beach.
>
>


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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Alberg 30

 

I meant to say 4ft 6 ins thats what you need fully loaded for cruising and a saftey margin on the Alberg 30. It will lay down on the side and come back up with the tide without taking on any water. Did this to change a zinc in the Bahamas
Richard

--- On Mon, 11/29/10, Eric <ewdysar@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Eric <ewdysar@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Alberg 30
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Received: Monday, November 29, 2010, 7:57 PM

 

According to the Alberg 30 site, the draft is 4'3", not exactly shoal draft but a ways from 6ft. But any full keel boat isn't going to respond well to laying on the beach, even my Bermuda 30 at 3'8".

I'm interested to hear what type of sailboat that you are considering if you're planning on beaching it. I know that there are a couple of designs from areas with outrageous tidal variances, boats with twin keels that remain standing up when the water disappears.

I guess that a centerboarder would do OK when beached, but you should have some braces on lines that can help keep the boat upright as the tide receeds. The other option is a multihull, but the weight of an electric drive with batteries will definately influence your sailing performance.

Fair winds,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Bill Spires <spiresac@...> wrote:
>
> Depending on how far the class will let you go and what type of conversion you
> install you may make the boat ineligible for one design fleet racing or you may
> just make it non-competitive. The Alberg 30 class seems to have fairly loose
> rules about engine mods so you may be ok. For me the 6 ft draft was a deal
> killer. I am building an electric boat i can beach.
>
>


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