Thursday, March 31, 2011

[Electric Boats] Battery charging

 

During the last few months of researching opportunities for a fully electric drive and power system for my C&C 30, which has never yet seen lake OR sea OR diesel fuel or even a pot to you-know-what, I have not learned what kind of power I can expect from an alternator mounted to the main drive shaft.

I've studied flow vectors, prop slip, blade incidence angles, spreadsheets, diagrams and prop-HP formulas, discovering that thrusting is entirely different from prop "impelling".

At least five resolutions have implanted themselves, however:
1) Solar panels are expensive, slippery under-foot, and useless when cracked or broken by a lousy winch handle; windmills have reached a mature state of design but their LF's drive you crazy and suicidal, their presence onboard is ludicrous, and the most obtrusive of them needs a full gale to produce 400 watts.
2) Re-gen from drive motors is 'pie in the sky', especially when considering the investment in controllers that fail at random times and can't be fixed. Traditional marine hardware is more reliable.
3) A separate alternator and separate drive motor must be the way to go. A PM brushless alternator, at 3:1 reduction or so depending on voltage and coiling, should produce up to 1,000 watts theoretically. All feathered props have an RPM beyond which they won't rotate, so that eliminates overheating if the alternator selection is right.
4) The drive motor on the same shaft can be clutched; but it can control your whole system if it's run fulltime!!! Boost voltage to it just to "start" the alternator if its reduction gear is rather high; boost voltage to increase boat speed; boost voltage when batteries are fully charged; boost voltage to delete prop turbulence; reduce voltage if batteries are low.
5) My fifth and final resolution: A driven prop has to be different from a driving prop. For driving -- if that's the priority -- a conventional prop is needed which drives water aft for propulsion. When this prop is feathered it can ony trickle-charge. (Typically, a feathered prop takes 1.5 to 2.0 knots away from average boat speed!) A generating prop is driven by water flow, its 'lift' is on the opposite side of the blade, and the blades' curl must also be opposite! The goal is to produce high flow-generated RPMs. Oddly enough, since boat speed is the common factor for both driving and 'driven' props, the angle of incidence of the blades should be the same -- about 24 degrees for an optimum sailing speed of 5 knots. This means choosing your prop for either power cruising or power producing, or compromise. ("Compromise" would involve a symmetrical airfoil without twist; it would reduce both driving and generating potential.) My choice is generating power, because I anticipate sailing 95% of the time (dancing to electric music and cooking with electric power) versus powering around harbours only 5% of the time. (My fulltime motor-ON proposition is just for RPM manipulation, but with a tweak of the potentiometer you're officially power-cruising!)

It took a long time to reach my (double) question: Has anyone in the forum had a "true" generating prop and how much watt power did you produce?

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RE: [Electric Boats] Re: Electric Seas

 

Greg-

 

FWIW, we don’t need apologies so we’re cool J.

I think I disagree with your point that our goals are the same.

Promoting electric boating is not part of what we do here on this forum really---we help each other, sure, but we don’t do any promoting or coordinated outreach or harbor unrealistic expectations that electric boating will really go main-stream.  We regularly inform folks that their goals of going electric don’t make sense for their use expectations.  We educate, but we don’t do outreach.  And over the 12 years of being here, we’ve built up a forum that now includes over 4000 members.

 

Our group’s home page states:

 

Welcome to the Electric Boats Forum: A discussion of everything about electric boating---a growing and exciting branch of the world of boats. Established in 1998, we now have nearly 4000 members and a wealth of information in over 15,000 postings.

 

Having said this, as a longstanding member of EVAA and Oregon Electric Vehicle Association (both non-profit organizations that DO promote electric vehicles), I understand the value of having an active non-profit organization with which enthusiasts can work to promote, lobby and conduct campaigns through.

This forum doesn’t have a formal mission, a bank account, a board or a history of going in the direction of promoting electrics.

In that sense, your organization and others fill a niche.  In addition to your group, another California non-profit group (that spawned from members of this group 2 years ago now) appears to have similar outreach goals as yours …their mission and bylaws and info are online also:

 

            http://greenmarinerepower.org

 

There’s also a WIKI for Electric Boating:

 

            http://www.electricboatclub.com/wiki

 

There are others as well.  The pond’s big---make as big a splash as you’d like.

 

-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.

Moderator, Electric Boats (since 2006?)

 

 

From: electricboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of electric_seas
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 11:00 PM
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Electric Seas

 

 

Thanks Myles!

Sorry, I didn't mean to spam, but I just thought everyone would like to know about our organization that we just started. Like Myles said, our focus is mainly "electric sailing" however any topic related to electric/ green boating is welcome. The goals of EBYG and Electric Seas are the same, I believe which is to promote electric boating and to turn this from a niche into something mainstream.

In case you don't already have EBYG book marked on your browser, you will also always find on the Electric Seas site on the "Forums" drop down menu there is a tab to both the Electric Seas forum and to EBYG and we'll continue to participate and refer people here as well.

Let's generate some buzz about electric boating!

Thanks,
-Greg

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Myles Twete" <matwete@...> wrote:
>
> Announcement:
>
> For folks wanting a more social-networking styled forum and resources
> website on electric boating (mainly electric sailing), as mentioned in an
> earlier email to the group, you might want to look at a new
> website/organization at www.electricseas.org . It's a new organization and
> website (only 20 members listed compared to 4294 on this forum). I am not
> involved in any way with this organization and won't say any more about this
> other than the goals appear sound.
>
> -Myles Twete, moderator, Electric Boats forum
>
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > And to the EBYG moderator: Thank you for posting my intro for Electric
> Seas. I am very sorry if this introduction is considered self promotional
> SPAM, I have been trying to contact you "offline" to discuss this with you
> first, but couldn't find your contact info- PLEASE ACCEPT MY PUBLIC
> APOLOGIES!!!
>
> [Moderator Note: my email address is on the Home Page]
>
> > The new website we have just started is not meant to be a competing forum
> to EBYG. We all share the same interest and goal, I believe which is to
> expand our collective knowledge and increase the scope and influence of our
> "niche" community and turn it into something more mainstream. We all stand
> to benefit from that.
> >
> > The Electric Seas website is just starting, but I am committed to growing
> it, and I can definitely use some help. It is also integrated with facebook,
> twitter, which alot of our community uses now and it's also linked with
> Yahoo so you don't need to remember another login and password. I think
> there is also a way we can integrate and link archives if you're interested
> in joining forces?
> >
> > EBYG Moderator- please contact me at ffmagellan at gmail dot com or greg
> at electricseas dot org... Let's please work together, we're on the same
> team! Friends?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > -Greg
>

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Wednesday, March 30, 2011

[Electric Boats] Re: Electric Seas

 

Thanks Myles!

Sorry, I didn't mean to spam, but I just thought everyone would like to know about our organization that we just started. Like Myles said, our focus is mainly "electric sailing" however any topic related to electric/ green boating is welcome. The goals of EBYG and Electric Seas are the same, I believe which is to promote electric boating and to turn this from a niche into something mainstream.

In case you don't already have EBYG book marked on your browser, you will also always find on the Electric Seas site on the "Forums" drop down menu there is a tab to both the Electric Seas forum and to EBYG and we'll continue to participate and refer people here as well.

Let's generate some buzz about electric boating!

Thanks,
-Greg

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Myles Twete" <matwete@...> wrote:
>
> Announcement:
>
> For folks wanting a more social-networking styled forum and resources
> website on electric boating (mainly electric sailing), as mentioned in an
> earlier email to the group, you might want to look at a new
> website/organization at www.electricseas.org . It's a new organization and
> website (only 20 members listed compared to 4294 on this forum). I am not
> involved in any way with this organization and won't say any more about this
> other than the goals appear sound.
>
> -Myles Twete, moderator, Electric Boats forum
>
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > And to the EBYG moderator: Thank you for posting my intro for Electric
> Seas. I am very sorry if this introduction is considered self promotional
> SPAM, I have been trying to contact you "offline" to discuss this with you
> first, but couldn't find your contact info- PLEASE ACCEPT MY PUBLIC
> APOLOGIES!!!
>
> [Moderator Note: my email address is on the Home Page]
>
> > The new website we have just started is not meant to be a competing forum
> to EBYG. We all share the same interest and goal, I believe which is to
> expand our collective knowledge and increase the scope and influence of our
> "niche" community and turn it into something more mainstream. We all stand
> to benefit from that.
> >
> > The Electric Seas website is just starting, but I am committed to growing
> it, and I can definitely use some help. It is also integrated with facebook,
> twitter, which alot of our community uses now and it's also linked with
> Yahoo so you don't need to remember another login and password. I think
> there is also a way we can integrate and link archives if you're interested
> in joining forces?
> >
> > EBYG Moderator- please contact me at ffmagellan at gmail dot com or greg
> at electricseas dot org... Let's please work together, we're on the same
> team! Friends?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > -Greg
>

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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Traction kites

 

A few years ago I joined a kite sailboarding group to investigate the idea.  Seems that the owner of the kite company came into port on a tri.  After bringing up the idea I was lead to a video that I no longer have the link to.  The response I got from the owner was controlling the kite would require quite a bit of effort and attention. Single handling may be something to avoid.

This is not a negative post, I still believe the idea has promise.

Consider this.  The lift provided by the kite would help bring a small boat onto plain.  This with electric drive could improve many of the power needs of the electric community.  Limit the weight in the keel needed for conventional sailing vessels. Speeds could be increased and lead needs reduced.  The major problem seems to be the number of locations that have laws drafted against them.  Laws need to be drafted for passing vessels that are not needed with conventional craft.  These passing rules could be shared with larger vessels that have been set up for kite boarding so new research would not need to be done.

What I like about the idea is gunk holing may be easer for larger distances than is now figured into that kind of cruising.  Glad to see someone else is thinking of this.

Kevin Pemberton


On 03/30/2011 08:24 AM, Galstaf wrote:

 

In a similar vein:

These ones look perfect to handle a lot of wind situations... all computer controlled with launch and retrieval system.. emergency stall capability, etc.
Nothing for smaller boats as yet, but apparently they have them in the works. There are some interesting videos on their website.

Has anyone seen one in action or know of anyone that is using these in production? I am sure they are pretty pricey for the huge ships... I wonder how much they would be for the smaller boats.

http://www.skysails.info/index.php?id=472&L=2

http://www.skysails.info/fileadmin/user_upload/documents/Dokumente/SKS_Broschueren/EN/EN_SkySails_Turn_wind_into_profit.pdf

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Dave Kellogg <inganear1@...> wrote:
>
> Eric,
> I saw the difference in the kites, I'll have to check out some of the videos on
> them in action. The Outleader kites look like they were more for the downwind
> as a spinnaker. Unless the sailboard kites can be controlled by a single
> person at the helm or while the boat is on auto pilot I'm not sure that they
> would be all that useful in the long run, got to have a rig that you can set and
> relax a little. Dave K
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Eric <ewdysar@...>
> To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tue, March 29, 2011 11:06:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Traction kites
>
> I just got a chance to look at the youtube clips posted earlier. In all of
> them, they seem to be types of kites used by kitesurfers and the likes. I think
> that for those kites, you're flying a kite and just happen to be on a boat.
>
> Alternatively the Outleader kites are spinnakers that are flown off the boat,
> the control lines are lead through the regular blocks and onto the spinnaker
> winches already on the boat. These are much more like sails than the other wing
> kites with inflatable frames. With an Outleader kite, the experience is much
> more like sailing with a regular spinnaker, you aren't constantly manning a
> control bar or rig like the ones in the videos. The Outleader also has a
> reasonable launch and retrieval process that is more like a conventional
> spinnaker. The Outleader kites we're designed specifically for powering
> sailboats all the way up to tankers. In 2004, they held the world record for
> flying a 420 sq meter kite from a 8.5 tonne keelboat near Sydney.
>
> Two different solutions, but similar in that they are only attached to the boat
> with lines.
>
> Fair winds,
> Eric
> Marina del Rey, CA
>
>
> --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Dave Kellogg <inganear1@> wrote:
> >
> > Eric, that statement about the lost mast and a kite may becoming a life saver
> >is
> >
> > one of the reasons I just wanted to experiment with mine a little..... One
> > never knows how many arrows you need in your quiver... Dave K
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Eric <ewdysar@>
> > To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tue, March 29, 2011 5:15:29 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Traction kites
> >
> > For those of us that are youtube deprived (at least at work) I'm guessing that
>
> > the conversation is focused on the spinnaker replacements that were developed
> > about 10 years ago.
> >
> > Dave Culp, in the SF area, hasa been promoting rule-legal soft kites for
> > pleasure sailboats for a decade. His main website is KiteShip
> > http://www.kiteship.com/ and the one for our types of boats are Outleader
> > kites. There were about a half dozen people that were flying them on F-boat
> > trimarans, they all said that the performance and handling under kites were
> > pretty impressive. However, they are not for short-handed crews and they do
> > seem to be more of a novelty rather than a regular part of a boat's sail
> > inventory. What they seem to be exceptional for is as part of one's safety
> > inventory, there's probably nothing better to deal with losing your mast in the
> >
> > middle of an ocean crossing. Packs small and light, this type of kite could
> > save your life.
> >
> > Here's a link to Dave's speedsailing site: http://www.dcss.org/speedsl/ Older
>
> > info, but still a good read...
> >
> > Fair winds,
> > Eric
> > Marina del Rey, CA


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[Electric Boats] Re: boat performance (was: portable tach)

 

Oh, that's you. I've come across your website a few times while doing research. I'm a big fan of some of the designs that you've built. I've got a set of Oughtred's Woodfish (a wood plank version of the Elfyn). Someday i'll have to get around to building her...

The funny thing is that your peformance chart looks like the data from Serenity with 10,800 punds of displacement, she's just one knot behind Grace. My power at 3,4 and 5kts almost perfectly matches yours at 4,5 and 6kts. Kind of weird...

Well met, Tom.

Eric

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <boat_works@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Eric,
>
> "Grace" is our 21'x7'x21" Zimmer launch variant we launched last year.
> She swings a big prop for her size, 15x12 three blade, which shoves her along very nicely.
>
> She was designed to motor efficiently with a small diesel. We modified her extensively, but left the hull lines alone. Her waterlines forward are slightly hollow, her transom clears the water when running at cruising speeds, and she has enough beam for capacity, but not too much. Except for the high bow (meant to deal with Great Lakes chop), her lines would make a nice sailboat. I pondered adding a simple gaff or lug rig at one point, but then came to my senses. That's another boat...
>
> She looks very different now, with a canopy with windows all around. They used to call these "glass cabin launches", I kinda like that.
> Some sort of enclosure is pretty much essential for year-round use on Puget Sound.
>
> Here's a link to our web page featuring Grace:
> http://www.grapeviewpointboatworks.com/zimmer.html
>
> Thanks for letting me brag a bit.
> -Tom
>
>
> --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <ewdysar@> wrote:
> >
> > Tom,
> >
> > I forget what type of boat your running your conversion in but even at 48V, 25A is great for 5.2kts. My old ketch needs 50A to cruise at 5kts.
> >
> > Fair winds,
> > Eric
> > Marina del Rey, CA
> >
> > --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <boat_works@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > ... In my case, I found the motor was only turning 1610RPM when I was running 5.2kts at 25A. Looks like I could use a smaller gearbelt pulley on the motor to step up the RPM and get the motor's cooling fan turning faster. Not enough room to put a larger pulley on the prop shaft.
> > >
> > > I have never tried to run at max current the motor is capable of, since the max output voltage of my Hall effect throttle gets too high for the existing configuration of my controller. When the controller sees too much throttle voltage it shuts down until you cycle the throttle. Even as it is, I can easily exceed hull speed at 80A (for a while). I never knew I was operating at such low motor RPM.
> > >
> > > Until now.
> > > -Tom
> > >
> >
>

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[Electric Boats] Re: boat performance (was: portable tach)

 



Hi Eric,

"Grace" is our 21'x7'x21" Zimmer launch variant we launched last year.
She swings a big prop for her size, 15x12 three blade, which shoves her along very nicely.

She was designed to motor efficiently with a small diesel. We modified her extensively, but left the hull lines alone. Her waterlines forward are slightly hollow, her transom clears the water when running at cruising speeds, and she has enough beam for capacity, but not too much. Except for the high bow (meant to deal with Great Lakes chop), her lines would make a nice sailboat. I pondered adding a simple gaff or lug rig at one point, but then came to my senses. That's another boat...

She looks very different now, with a canopy with windows all around. They used to call these "glass cabin launches", I kinda like that.
Some sort of enclosure is pretty much essential for year-round use on Puget Sound.

Here's a link to our web page featuring Grace:
http://www.grapeviewpointboatworks.com/zimmer.html

Thanks for letting me brag a bit.
-Tom

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <ewdysar@...> wrote:
>
> Tom,
>
> I forget what type of boat your running your conversion in but even at 48V, 25A is great for 5.2kts. My old ketch needs 50A to cruise at 5kts.
>
> Fair winds,
> Eric
> Marina del Rey, CA
>
> --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <boat_works@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > ... In my case, I found the motor was only turning 1610RPM when I was running 5.2kts at 25A. Looks like I could use a smaller gearbelt pulley on the motor to step up the RPM and get the motor's cooling fan turning faster. Not enough room to put a larger pulley on the prop shaft.
> >
> > I have never tried to run at max current the motor is capable of, since the max output voltage of my Hall effect throttle gets too high for the existing configuration of my controller. When the controller sees too much throttle voltage it shuts down until you cycle the throttle. Even as it is, I can easily exceed hull speed at 80A (for a while). I never knew I was operating at such low motor RPM.
> >
> > Until now.
> > -Tom
> >
>

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[Electric Boats] Re: boat performance (was: portable tach)

 

Tom,

I forget what type of boat your running your conversion in but even at 48V, 25A is great for 5.2kts. My old ketch needs 50A to cruise at 5kts.

Fair winds,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <boat_works@...> wrote:
>
>
> ... In my case, I found the motor was only turning 1610RPM when I was running 5.2kts at 25A. Looks like I could use a smaller gearbelt pulley on the motor to step up the RPM and get the motor's cooling fan turning faster. Not enough room to put a larger pulley on the prop shaft.
>
> I have never tried to run at max current the motor is capable of, since the max output voltage of my Hall effect throttle gets too high for the existing configuration of my controller. When the controller sees too much throttle voltage it shuts down until you cycle the throttle. Even as it is, I can easily exceed hull speed at 80A (for a while). I never knew I was operating at such low motor RPM.
>
> Until now.
> -Tom
>

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Re: [Electric Boats] Motor Sailing

 

I started reading it yesterday , I believe it a valuable resource for anyone wanting to set up a motorsailer.
What hits me again , and again though , is how valuable a hybrid setup would be , and how relatively inexpensive it would be to set up.
The book I have is the second addition , written in '93 , I reckon a 3rd addition should be written covering the considerable advantage of a hybrid , and also electric power .
I haven't finished the book yet , but it has really encouraged me to set up a hybrid.
It also covers very well the subject of engine room ventilation in a blue water boat , and cooling.
I believe its a valuable addition to the library of anyone interested in motorsailer , but I'd love to see someone cover the advantage of hybrid power , and also electric in a straightforward , factual way , without any of the BS we sometimes get in the industry.
For me at least , I'm really looking forward to setting up my next boat hybrid , I reckon it will be really something.
Regards Rob J. 


From: Rob <dopeydriver@yahoo.com.au>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 30 March, 2011 2:02:25 PM
Subject: [Electric Boats] Motor Sailing

I've just taken delivery of the book "Motorsailing" by Dag Pike.
It doesn't deal with electric powered propulsion at all , but is a very comprehensive book , on all aspects of the motor sailer.
The section on engine compartment ventilation systems is worth the cost of the book alone .
Regards Rob J.



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[Electric Boats] Re: portable tach

 

Well, you're one step ahead of me.
I was wondering if I cold get a remote thermometer to read the temp of the windings via the cooling slots in my motor if I held it really close to the slot...

-Tom

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark n Angela" <mstafford@...> wrote:
>
> Tom, great idea. The laser tachometers will usually work over much greater distances than a few inches. Mine worked easily at about 6 feet. They work by analyzing the pulses of the reflected laser light.
>
> I also recommend laser thermometers (or more properly remote temperature sensors). They are not so precisely localized as the laser aiming spot would suggest. The infrared sensor just picks up whatever is obvious. To get the best temp readings, put a square inch of black tape on things that are not already black. Wait for the tape to acquire the objects temp. Measure within inches.
>
> It is possible for a particular remote temp sensor to have a precise lensed IR sensor that differentiates a square centimeter from 2 meters away, AND that the aiming laser is installed so that it always indicates this highly localized target. Possible, though unlikely for anything less than several hundred dollars.
>
> The cheap ones (US$30) are great. Just make sure they cover the desired RPM or Temp ranges.
>
> Great tools!
>
> Mark Stafford
>
>
> --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <boat_works@> wrote:
> >
> > I just had a chance to try out the laser tach I recently bought on Ebay.
> > This item, but not this seller:
> >
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/Digital-Laser-Photo-Tachometer-Non-Contact-RPM-Tach-NEW-/300533163851?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f92c274b
> >
> > I paid a bit more.
> >
> > The good news is it works great. Just put a 1/2" long strip of reflective tape (provided) on the shaft or pulley or belt or whatever,
> > hold the unit within a few inches of the tape, and push a button. In a couple seconds you have your reading.
> >
> > My Millipak controller needs either a fairly expensive handheld programmer, or some fairly expensive software to display RPM. Here's another solution.
> >
> > In my case, I found the motor was only turning 1610RPM when I was running 5.2kts at 25A. Looks like I could use a smaller gearbelt pulley on the motor to step up the RPM and get the motor's cooling fan turning faster. Not enough room to put a larger pulley on the prop shaft.
> >
> > I have never tried to run at max current the motor is capable of, since the max output voltage of my Hall effect throttle gets too high for the existing configuration of my controller. When the controller sees too much throttle voltage it shuts down until you cycle the throttle. Even as it is, I can easily exceed hull speed at 80A (for a while). I never knew I was operating at such low motor RPM.
> >
> > Until now.
> > -Tom
> >
>

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