Friday, June 30, 2017

Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Boat size?

 

Foot for each year. 30 year old, 30 foot. 60 years old 60 foot. : )


On Jun 30, 2017 4:05 AM, "king_of_neworleans" <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

That sounds reasonable. I always thought of a boat too big to be allowed to transit the Panama canal without pilotage as a large yacht. That's 60 feet. I never learned to speak in meters.

__._,_.___

Posted by: Kev <captainyoung@gmail.com>
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (3)

Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.


.

__,_._,___

[Electric Boats] Re: Parallel Revisited

 

There are better options than 100ah batteries in parallel. How about one 4D or 8D? Or two GC2 or L16 6v batteries in series? Yes more amphours is beneficial since for a given discharge current, the Peukert penalty is smaller. It's not a real deal breaker though unless you cruise at relatively high power levels.

Why a 12v motor? There are plenty of inexpensive 24v and 36v motors. Check out the Newport Vessel line. Cheap. You will want a PWM brushed dc motor controller for more efficient operation but a cheap Chinese controller shouldn't cost more than $40 or so. Then gang up some reasonably high amphours batteries in series and you will have a very capable system for a 19ft boat for a fairly low investment.

As someone else suggested, you can always just switch between batteries when the first one is down to 50% or so. The Peukert penalty is not going to break you at modest power settings. It is more important to have a PWM controller, actually.

__._,_.___
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (6)

Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.


.

__,_._,___

Re: [Electric Boats] Parallel Revisited

 

Yes but he wants to keep it simple. If he goes parallel he will have to purchase two new batteries. If he only needs a little more for comfort and peace he only needs one more battery. Because what he has now works he will get twice the range he needs. 


 

Some commentary..
Technically, a larger pack pack is (quite a lot) more efficient, and will last much longer and provide much more power overall, due to much lower C rates.
This is very much the reality, as well as the theory.

e:
6 batteries in parallel, running one at a time, for a useful power-output to 50% dod, in one hour.
The 6 batteries will provide x power, say 3 knots on some particular theoretical craft, or 3 knots/hr, 18 miles total.

If in parallel, You will likely get about 9 hours to 50% dod, and the battery lifetime will be 50% longer, over the useful life of the batteries.
Or 27 miles range, vs 18, 50% more.
More or less, it is an example of how it works..

But..
1.
IF for some reason You bust the pack, due to overcharging, undercharging, or overusing, the whole thing is toast vs just one battery.

2.
IF for some reason You run out of juice, You have no options.
BUT You are probably very much less likely to run out of juice with 27 miles, vs 18.

You get 50% more useful life with 6xP, but must then make sure that it is sufficient.
This is not much different to exhausting 6 batteries one after the other, and then being out of juice, but with only half the total capacity.

A good way to think about all this is;
1.
double the voltage, twice, for about 20-25% increase in range/performance/results.

So, vs a 12 V system,
12V x 2 x 2 = 48 V.
A 48 volt system will be about 25% more efficient, due to lower losses in cables, inductance, back emf, etc.
Often more, in marine stuff, details matter a lot..

2.
Triple the capacity, for 20-25% increase in range/efficiency/total power; depending on what You need (a bit less benefit in lion batteries).
So, if 1 kWh of batteries provide say 10 miles at 2 knots,
3 kWh will typically provide == 3 x 1 x 1.25 = 3.6 miles.

3.
Double the prop D for a great increase in efficiency.
Often 30-50%, upto 100%.
But it is hard to do, needs different pitches, etc.. and is very seldom if almost-never done.

The best part about electric drive, is that You *could* increase the prop size, lower pitch, and still get great results, because electric drives are happy to run slow, with full torque and power, without loss of efficiency.



On 30/06/2017 18:43, Walter Pearson pearson1854@comcast.net [electricboats] wrote:
My thinking was that connected in parallel, it would reduce DOD, keeping them more in balance and possibly extending life. Maybe that is not worth it?

--   -hanermo (cnc designs)  

__._,_.___

Posted by: Daniel Michaels <nov32394@yahoo.com>
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (7)

Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.


.

__,_._,___

Re: [Electric Boats] Parallel Revisited

 

Some commentary..
Technically, a larger pack pack is (quite a lot) more efficient, and will last much longer and provide much more power overall, due to much lower C rates.
This is very much the reality, as well as the theory.

e:
6 batteries in parallel, running one at a time, for a useful power-output to 50% dod, in one hour.
The 6 batteries will provide x power, say 3 knots on some particular theoretical craft, or 3 knots/hr, 18 miles total.

If in parallel, You will likely get about 9 hours to 50% dod, and the battery lifetime will be 50% longer, over the useful life of the batteries.
Or 27 miles range, vs 18, 50% more.
More or less, it is an example of how it works..

But..
1.
IF for some reason You bust the pack, due to overcharging, undercharging, or overusing, the whole thing is toast vs just one battery.

2.
IF for some reason You run out of juice, You have no options.
BUT You are probably very much less likely to run out of juice with 27 miles, vs 18.

You get 50% more useful life with 6xP, but must then make sure that it is sufficient.
This is not much different to exhausting 6 batteries one after the other, and then being out of juice, but with only half the total capacity.

A good way to think about all this is;
1.
double the voltage, twice, for about 20-25% increase in range/performance/results.

So, vs a 12 V system,
12V x 2 x 2 = 48 V.
A 48 volt system will be about 25% more efficient, due to lower losses in cables, inductance, back emf, etc.
Often more, in marine stuff, details matter a lot..

2.
Triple the capacity, for 20-25% increase in range/efficiency/total power; depending on what You need (a bit less benefit in lion batteries).
So, if 1 kWh of batteries provide say 10 miles at 2 knots,
3 kWh will typically provide == 3 x 1 x 1.25 = 3.6 miles.

3.
Double the prop D for a great increase in efficiency.
Often 30-50%, upto 100%.
But it is hard to do, needs different pitches, etc.. and is very seldom if almost-never done.

The best part about electric drive, is that You *could* increase the prop size, lower pitch, and still get great results, because electric drives are happy to run slow, with full torque and power, without loss of efficiency.



On 30/06/2017 18:43, Walter Pearson pearson1854@comcast.net [electricboats] wrote:
My thinking was that connected in parallel, it would reduce DOD, keeping them more in balance and possibly extending life. Maybe that is not worth it?

--   -hanermo (cnc designs)  

__._,_.___

Posted by: Hannu Venermo <gcode.fi@gmail.com>
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (5)

Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.


.

__,_._,___

RE: [Electric Boats] Re: Current 48 VDC alternator/generator options

 

I looked again thru the Operations Manual for the DCX3000 and don't see anything close to a curve or specs as to what current limitations are imposed as a function of battery voltage.  For 48v operation, the photo of the output connector shows 53.3amps at 52.5v.  But that's it.

And we know that they default to zero output above 56v.

It's pretty likely that the current limit drops, probably linearly, from 53amps (at 52.5v) to Zero (at 56v).

So here's what happens:

·       You head out into a high power demand scenario (upstream, against current, fast, etc.) and, wanting to save power, you fire up the genset.  You're delivering 50amps from your generator but you're still running a 40amp deficit.

·       You connect up the second DCX3000 which attempts to put out 50amps also.  In response, the battery voltage rises.  As the pack voltage rises above 52.5v, both generator outputs drop.  The outputs will continue to drop until the voltage stabilizes.

 

To get both gensets to continuously put out 50amps each:

·       You need to ensure your pack voltage stabilizes below 52.5v while both gensets are running and your loads are going.

 

A story:

When I was doing a 45-mile trip upstream on the Columbia River one day (back when I had 36v lead acid pack), I had my Honda EU2000i running and had 2 chargers plugged in---one was a 36v Lestronic and the other was a Vicor Megapac loaded with five (5) 48vDC, 4amp modules.  At one point, my generator was throttling up and back, repeatedly.  I looked into it and noticed that the Lester's output was going up, then down, repeatedly as was the pack voltage and the net current to the batteries.  As I increased the boat motor's throttle, this effect went away.  But I still didn't seem to get full current out of my Lester---it was only, say, 15amps, not 20amps.  I increased the throttle some more, and voila!  The Lester was up to 20amps along with the Vicor and I ran at this maximum all day.  For me, what worked was to observe the NET CURRENT into the Battery Pack and to set my boat speed such that Net Battery Current == ZERO amps.  And as long as the pack voltage was below the voltage where the Lester put out its maximum, I was getting maximum steady power from the genset thru the chargers.  I didn't need to look at pack voltage until later when I found that I needed an extra 5amps to make the headway upstream that I needed.  And so I drew a deficit, but it was manageable and I made it back with only a few spare electrons left…

 

-Myles

 

From: electricboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2017 10:10 AM
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Electric Boats] Re: Current 48 VDC alternator/generator options

 

 

Arden-

 

A couple points.

 

First, it's expected that the 2 DC-output gensets would share the load equally when paralleled.  If that's not what you want or expect, then you'll have to modify one of the gensets to not throttle back with voltage or to somehow adjust or move its "load curve" higher.

 

Second, that "load curve"---as I understand the specs for the genset, there's no stated load curve---nevertheless, it definitely follows one.   It appears that the 48v genset defaults to zero output below 42v and considers a battery FULL at 56v.  Presumably, the genset will deliver FULL RATED CURRENT at the low end (42v-someV).  What the generator does between the lower limit and 56v is anyone's guess.  If it's like the Lestronic charger, the current will drop somewhat linearly with voltage.  But then there's the fact that it assumes lead acid batteries and that it should put MAX power thru the Bulk charge voltage phase, then taper the current down when it approaches the max voltage.  And there's the rub: Where does it start tapering?  If they don't put it in writing, we don't know.  As mentioned, the LESTER chargers start tapering right away and they taper towards 5amps or near zero instead of tapering according to keeping Max Power.  IF (big IF) the DCX were to deliver Max Rated Power up to 56v, you'd expect about 30% drop in current from 42v to 56v, and with 2 gensets, you should get Full Rated power but with 60% max current.  At 48v, you'd expect even more current.

So this is a bit strange.

Are your gensets rated for 48v Lead Acid or 36v?

If 36v, you shouldn't get ANY output above 42v from either genset.

 

Bottom Line: You deserve to know the load curve for the genset.   See if you can get it.

 

-Myles

 

 

 

From: electricboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2017 10:58 PM
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Current 48 VDC alternator/generator options

 

 

Myles,

Now that testing and practical use of the AlphaGen DCX3000 has been accomplished I can say that I can't seem to get two of them to spool up past 50 amps.  A single unit will put out 50 amps but adding another running AlphaGen DCX3000 to the mix only lowers the current on both of the units.

They do function quite well and certainly extend the range but I still can incur an amp hour loss over time and I'm not happy about that as at times I may require 40+ amps on the negative side to run with conditions over and above what the generators and solar are bringing in. 

Conservatively that limits my run time and gives me "X" number of hours at 40 amp deficit.

I'm currently sourcing out another Honda 2000 and a couple more 48v chargers.

I recently procured a Honda 2000 and am able to run a couple of my 48v Lestronic II 17910 chargers on it and produce 30 amps.

I figure if I had another identical setup to that I would save weight on the boat and always have 60 amps at my disposal.  Combined with solar and I can then be inputting close to 90 amps back into the back.  Therefore I could be fully charged in 4.5 hours. 

Also I can motor most anywhere for 60 amps turning prop for 30amps a side on each of my outboards.  I can pack over 20 gallons of gas on board so at that rate I can motor for a really really long time without incurring a major amp hour draw if needed.

Arden

__._,_.___

Posted by: "Myles Twete" <matwete@comcast.net>
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (23)

Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.


.

__,_._,___

Re: [Electric Boats] Parallel Revisited

 

Don't go past 50 on any one by battery. You could make a bus bar connection with the neg all hooked together then separate pos and switch from the cockpit every 30 min. 


 

My thinking was that connected in parallel, it would reduce DOD, keeping them more in balance and possibly extending life. Maybe that is not worth it?


On 6/30/2017 10:39 AM, Daniel Michaels nov32394@yahoo.com [electricboats] wrote:
 

If it is just a trolling motor just have extra batteries and hook them up as needed. Why hook them together? You can find 50 w solar panels panels to charge each one. About $65. Each. 


 

From recent enlightening – and somewhat disconcerting – postings on the perils of parallelism in batteries, I find myself questioning my plans. I have an old - but hopefully sturdy enough - 19 foot sailboat that I intend just to use more as an electric launch in calm conditions and only sail her occasionally. I realize lithium technology is good in the long run, and pure lead has advantages, but to see if this vessel meets my needs, I'd like to keep the investment low for the near future. Am I really inviting a whole lot of risk putting a couple of Cabela or equivalent AGMs in parallel for a couple of short seasons to power a MinnKota 55? Staying at 12 volts is not optimum, but components are cheap and available and maybe easier to sell if things don't work out.

I have a 100 watt solar panel and MPPT controller for charging. Shore power is available, but I'd rather keep it simple for awhile and forgo connecting up and running a larger charge system.

I realize a trolling motor is not optimum either and might not be reliable, but hopefully, the sails will provide backup. My one and only datapoint last season showed 212 watts at 2.4 knots, so it appears the newer PWM controller is efficient enough for my needs. But for peace of mind, it would be good to have more than the 100 Ah that one AGM provided. Any suggestions..

Walter Pearson


__._,_.___

Posted by: Daniel Michaels <nov32394@yahoo.com>
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (4)

Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.


.

__,_._,___

Re: [Electric Boats] Parallel Revisited

 

My thinking was that connected in parallel, it would reduce DOD, keeping them more in balance and possibly extending life. Maybe that is not worth it?


On 6/30/2017 10:39 AM, Daniel Michaels nov32394@yahoo.com [electricboats] wrote:
 

If it is just a trolling motor just have extra batteries and hook them up as needed. Why hook them together? You can find 50 w solar panels panels to charge each one. About $65. Each. 


 

From recent enlightening – and somewhat disconcerting – postings on the perils of parallelism in batteries, I find myself questioning my plans. I have an old - but hopefully sturdy enough - 19 foot sailboat that I intend just to use more as an electric launch in calm conditions and only sail her occasionally. I realize lithium technology is good in the long run, and pure lead has advantages, but to see if this vessel meets my needs, I'd like to keep the investment low for the near future. Am I really inviting a whole lot of risk putting a couple of Cabela or equivalent AGMs in parallel for a couple of short seasons to power a MinnKota 55? Staying at 12 volts is not optimum, but components are cheap and available and maybe easier to sell if things don't work out.

I have a 100 watt solar panel and MPPT controller for charging. Shore power is available, but I'd rather keep it simple for awhile and forgo connecting up and running a larger charge system.

I realize a trolling motor is not optimum either and might not be reliable, but hopefully, the sails will provide backup. My one and only datapoint last season showed 212 watts at 2.4 knots, so it appears the newer PWM controller is efficient enough for my needs. But for peace of mind, it would be good to have more than the 100 Ah that one AGM provided. Any suggestions..

Walter Pearson


__._,_.___

Posted by: Walter Pearson <pearson1854@comcast.net>
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (3)

Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.


.

__,_._,___

Re: [Electric Boats] Parallel Revisited

 

If it is just a trolling motor just have extra batteries and hook them up as needed. Why hook them together? You can find 50 w solar panels panels to charge each one. About $65. Each. 


 

From recent enlightening – and somewhat disconcerting – postings on the perils of parallelism in batteries, I find myself questioning my plans. I have an old - but hopefully sturdy enough - 19 foot sailboat that I intend just to use more as an electric launch in calm conditions and only sail her occasionally. I realize lithium technology is good in the long run, and pure lead has advantages, but to see if this vessel meets my needs, I'd like to keep the investment low for the near future. Am I really inviting a whole lot of risk putting a couple of Cabela or equivalent AGMs in parallel for a couple of short seasons to power a MinnKota 55? Staying at 12 volts is not optimum, but components are cheap and available and maybe easier to sell if things don't work out.

I have a 100 watt solar panel and MPPT controller for charging. Shore power is available, but I'd rather keep it simple for awhile and forgo connecting up and running a larger charge system.

I realize a trolling motor is not optimum either and might not be reliable, but hopefully, the sails will provide backup. My one and only datapoint last season showed 212 watts at 2.4 knots, so it appears the newer PWM controller is efficient enough for my needs. But for peace of mind, it would be good to have more than the 100 Ah that one AGM provided. Any suggestions..

Walter Pearson

__._,_.___

Posted by: Daniel Michaels <nov32394@yahoo.com>
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (2)

Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.


.

__,_._,___

[Electric Boats] Parallel Revisited

 

From recent enlightening – and somewhat disconcerting – postings on the perils of parallelism in batteries, I find myself questioning my plans. I have an old - but hopefully sturdy enough - 19 foot sailboat that I intend just to use more as an electric launch in calm conditions and only sail her occasionally. I realize lithium technology is good in the long run, and pure lead has advantages, but to see if this vessel meets my needs, I'd like to keep the investment low for the near future. Am I really inviting a whole lot of risk putting a couple of Cabela or equivalent AGMs in parallel for a couple of short seasons to power a MinnKota 55? Staying at 12 volts is not optimum, but components are cheap and available and maybe easier to sell if things don't work out.

I have a 100 watt solar panel and MPPT controller for charging. Shore power is available, but I'd rather keep it simple for awhile and forgo connecting up and running a larger charge system.

I realize a trolling motor is not optimum either and might not be reliable, but hopefully, the sails will provide backup. My one and only datapoint last season showed 212 watts at 2.4 knots, so it appears the newer PWM controller is efficient enough for my needs. But for peace of mind, it would be good to have more than the 100 Ah that one AGM provided. Any suggestions..

Walter Pearson

__._,_.___

Posted by: Walter Pearson <pearson1854@comcast.net>
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (1)

Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.


.

__,_._,___