Thursday, November 13, 2014

Re: [Electric Boats] Solar panels on the boat deck: what are safe voltage level?

 

Very interessting, both your suggestions Kevin!
I will examin them closer - economically and also regarding to efficiency
Thanks
Bendik

2014-11-05 5:14 GMT+01:00 Kevin Pemberton pembertonkevin@gmail.com [electricboats] <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>:
 

No.

I am suggesting a 24vdc or 48vdc battery bank to store the power from the
panels. With panels like I have 24v bank requires parallel connection. 48v
requires two series panels then connecting parallel to produce almost 100v.
The bigger voltage difference helps the panels produce in other than optimum
conditions. The buck DC to DC converters in MPPT controllers worth their salt
change the voltage with only a small loss in watts. controllers that are of
the PWM variety just throw away the wattage created from the panel over the
bank voltage. Don't get any of the PWM controllers only the MPPT controllers.

I am suggesting an inverter to convert the bank voltage to the 120/220 vac. if
the controller requires vdc use a rectifier bridge, better yet a bridge using
fets to avoid loosing as much as one looses with diodes. Then filtering the
output with large capacitors.

If your capacitors are large enough they can supply the starting current of
the motor. I know soft start will not require large capacitors but why not use
them anyhow. Seems there are white papers listing large losses if the input
into the controllers for motors is not smooth. This is due to the power
required to produce the harmonic frequency.

As an added bonus I will give you more thought. Grid tie micro inverters could
be used on the panels. These MPPT controllers convert the panel power to the
line voltage of 220 ac typically. The source of the sine wave can be supplied
from a true sine inverter of small size. In my search I found such micro
inverters for around 100us each. The output is dependent upon a sine wave. You
have expressed that you want the voltage from the panels low. I agree with
you. The use of these micro inverters would defeat the original design plan.

I have not engineered a solution as described using micro inverters because
the system did not fit my needs, so you will have to do the job. What you need
to remember is special care will be needed with high voltage like 220. any
terminals exposed in any way while under way could end your life. I have been
thrown into a hot engine by a wake from a passing coastie. DC will not release
you the way AC will, you could be stuck to the thing until the power was
drained. Adding the danger that someone thinking they could knock you free may
join you. This is one reason I like the idea of lower voltage battery banks.
If you have problems with the high voltage capacitors you can just call for a
tow. The capacitors are much less likely to fail than a battery is, and it
serves nothing to reconfigure under way. Further a switch hooked up to a
resistor can discharge the capacitors before you work on them.

I hope I answered most of the questions you may have had. If not keep asking.

Kevin

On Monday, November 03, 2014 07:09:30 PM you wrote:
> Do you suggest using some sort of a solar 12/24Vdc to 120/230Vac inverter
> to power a 120V battery charger?
> The battery charger needs to be a variable power type, since input current
> will vary according to the sun conditions - and I dont know if such
> exists...(?)
> The motor controller for the 120V, 3 phace motor needs a input of between
> 110-350Vdc


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Sunday, November 9, 2014

Re: [Electric Boats] Electric 220 to 110 volt Conversion question

 

if your plug is a 4 wire, you probably could pickup a small breaker box(there are small 2-4 breaker panels out there) and dryer wire. Wire the dryer plug into the breaker box and have a 110V outlet on it, all built on a small piece of wood.
This would be like having a sub panel off the dryer plug.
This way your dryer plug is still available when you are not using the welder.
Not sure if this would be up to code.
I'm not an electrician.

Mark


From: "h20dragon@centurytel.net [electricboats]" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 4, 2014 8:05 AM
Subject: [Electric Boats] Electric 220 to 110 volt Conversion question

 
I have a question for the group.

In boats sometimes I need to have clean welding done, so i bought a Harbor freight 20 amp MIG wire feed welder ( 60 to 120 amp out).   A friend also gave me an older Dayton brand 26.6 amp input  "buzz box" welder (100 amps out) that both run on 110 volt AC wall plug type input.  Can they be run, one at a time, from a single 220 v. washer / dryer box circuit??  

 I don't think that using the house 110 volt would be safe, not so good for my older home wiring in the country.   The buzz box I will hope to use with magnesium rod,.mostly for steel sheet cutting.  The wire feed machine for building  stuff.  I have a good gas welder/cutter now, but like the MIG option.

I have an extra 220 clothes dryer plug, that might work if I could convert it to 110 safely.  Is there a plug, or a power changing box, with an extension cord, that can go from the 220v to a single leg 110, without having a wiring rework to do ??  Probably some others here have done this change. 

Thanks,  Cal


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[Electric Boats] Re: Electric 220 to 110 volt Conversion question --- Thanks to all !!

 

Many good ideas on the re-wiring, again thanks to all.  I will start with isolating one existing 110v. plug and garage outlet for heavier duty use, with only the welder plugged in.  I found an unused small AC  room circuit and plug, not used most of the year during the day.  Tried that and did not pop the circuit, good news.  I can have one heavier breaker installed and set where I can most likely use it as needed later.  I see where fire coverage also is presuming all wiring to code, don't want to lose that out here in the woods.   Welding always throws serious sparks, so gotta watch that part too.
 
Harbor Freight for the wire feed  110v. welder.  Flux core wire coil from Home Depot spatters a lot, but might be my ugly technique for now.  A short course at the local college will help that part.  The HF auto helmet is super, wouldn't weld without it.  A super duty 2/0 extension cord works on the boat charger, and welder too, a bit more convenient.   I had an old aluminum outdoor table frame with broken glass top – now cut down to fit 2'X 3" heavy steel mesh top, with a smaller 1/4" solid steel welding plate – still light enough to move where needed and a good height to weld from, while seated and well braced.  Might find one of those at a recycle place by the pound.  The heavy weight steel mesh top helps keep it movable, 
 
Later,   Cal

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Friday, November 7, 2014

[Electric Boats] Re: Electric 220 to 110 volt Conversion question

 

Not very safe, but it could be done. You would have a breaker that trips on both legs, of which you will be using one leg and the neutral. No simple conversion and I'm assuming you have a 3 wire outlet not the newer 4 wire outlet. Their is at least three ways of doing this cheap and dirty, all not to code, that I can think of off the top of my head, and maybe one way that might be code legal. Possibly code legal method (Replace breaker with a single 20 to 30 amp breaker as needed by welder. Tape both ends of either black or red wire with green electrical tape, attach the now green wire to neutral bus bar on panel. replace dryer outlet with a 20/ 30 amp 110 volt outlet. Green taped wire is now ground, white wire should still be neutral to hook up new outlet with correct polarity and the red or black wire which ever one you connected to new breaker is black.)  If you have a 3 wire outlet the round pin is neutral, each leg is one of the flat pins. The reason I won't tell you any more to hook it up against code is when you do this you eliminate a ground or use the neutral as a ground also, not a good idea.  110 volt welders usually can run on a 15 or preferably 20 amp circuit. Not sure why you want to use a 30 amp dryer circuit. would you use that to run a skill saw or air compressor? If I didn't have a good 20 amp outlet somewhere in my shop/garage I think that putting one in would be a priority.

Glen

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Posted by: Glen Winters <glenbwint@yahoo.com>
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[Electric Boats] Re: Electric 220 to 110 volt Conversion question

 

220 has two hots and a ground, 110 has 1 hot a neutral and a ground.  to properly and safely do it, you would need a neutral at the box (one may be there but not hooked up).  In other words you would have to rework the wireing.

From an Electrician

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Tuesday, November 4, 2014

Re: [Electric Boats] Solar panels on the boat deck: what are safe voltage level?

 

No.

I am suggesting a 24vdc or 48vdc battery bank to store the power from the
panels. With panels like I have 24v bank requires parallel connection. 48v
requires two series panels then connecting parallel to produce almost 100v.
The bigger voltage difference helps the panels produce in other than optimum
conditions. The buck DC to DC converters in MPPT controllers worth their salt
change the voltage with only a small loss in watts. controllers that are of
the PWM variety just throw away the wattage created from the panel over the
bank voltage. Don't get any of the PWM controllers only the MPPT controllers.

I am suggesting an inverter to convert the bank voltage to the 120/220 vac. if
the controller requires vdc use a rectifier bridge, better yet a bridge using
fets to avoid loosing as much as one looses with diodes. Then filtering the
output with large capacitors.

If your capacitors are large enough they can supply the starting current of
the motor. I know soft start will not require large capacitors but why not use
them anyhow. Seems there are white papers listing large losses if the input
into the controllers for motors is not smooth. This is due to the power
required to produce the harmonic frequency.

As an added bonus I will give you more thought. Grid tie micro inverters could
be used on the panels. These MPPT controllers convert the panel power to the
line voltage of 220 ac typically. The source of the sine wave can be supplied
from a true sine inverter of small size. In my search I found such micro
inverters for around 100us each. The output is dependent upon a sine wave. You
have expressed that you want the voltage from the panels low. I agree with
you. The use of these micro inverters would defeat the original design plan.

I have not engineered a solution as described using micro inverters because
the system did not fit my needs, so you will have to do the job. What you need
to remember is special care will be needed with high voltage like 220. any
terminals exposed in any way while under way could end your life. I have been
thrown into a hot engine by a wake from a passing coastie. DC will not release
you the way AC will, you could be stuck to the thing until the power was
drained. Adding the danger that someone thinking they could knock you free may
join you. This is one reason I like the idea of lower voltage battery banks.
If you have problems with the high voltage capacitors you can just call for a
tow. The capacitors are much less likely to fail than a battery is, and it
serves nothing to reconfigure under way. Further a switch hooked up to a
resistor can discharge the capacitors before you work on them.

I hope I answered most of the questions you may have had. If not keep asking.

Kevin

On Monday, November 03, 2014 07:09:30 PM you wrote:
> Do you suggest using some sort of a solar 12/24Vdc to 120/230Vac inverter
> to power a 120V battery charger?
> The battery charger needs to be a variable power type, since input current
> will vary according to the sun conditions - and I dont know if such
> exists...(?)
> The motor controller for the 120V, 3 phace motor needs a input of between
> 110-350Vdc

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Posted by: Kevin Pemberton <pembertonkevin@gmail.com>
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[Electric Boats] Re: Electric 220 to 110 volt Conversion question

 

http://m.campingworld.com/shopping/item/110v-electrical-power-outlet-box-30-amp/20811

You need to install a 30a breaker in your power distribution panel, then a proper 30a receptacle fed from the breaker with appropriately sized wire. The sum total current rating should not exceed your main breaker. No, don't try to use one leg of a 220v circuit. It won't give you anything but trouble. You really need to have a licensed electrician come in and do it. It is probably illegal for you to do this yourself and an electrician will do everything to code and give you a safe installation.

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Re: [Electric Boats] Electric 220 to 110 volt Conversion question

 



Short answer is yes, but there are stipulations...
If the 26.+ amp welder is 220/240 (really the same), then you will need to make sure the wiring is up to the task and you have outlets that each use an opposite leg if the 220/240 and both use the neutral of that circuit.  The HFT welder is going to need a 15-20 amp supply.  Each welder outlet should have its own disconnect between the 220/240 line and the respective outlet.  All this being said, you should check with a good electrician that knows the current NEC.  Although some things are functional, there are engineers and bureaucrats that will say otherwise.  I have been an electrician but am not current on the code.
Dan
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2014 10:05 AM
Subject: [Electric Boats] Electric 220 to 110 volt Conversion question

 

I have a question for the group.


In boats sometimes I need to have clean welding done, so i bought a Harbor freight 20 amp MIG wire feed welder ( 60 to 120 amp out).   A friend also gave me an older Dayton brand 26.6 amp input  "buzz box" welder (100 amps out) that both run on 110 volt AC wall plug type input.  Can they be run, one at a time, from a single 220 v. washer / dryer box circuit??  


 I don't think that using the house 110 volt would be safe, not so good for my older home wiring in the country.   The buzz box I will hope to use with magnesium rod,.mostly for steel sheet cutting.  The wire feed machine for building  stuff.  I have a good gas welder/cutter now, but like the MIG option.


I have an extra 220 clothes dryer plug, that might work if I could convert it to 110 safely.  Is there a plug, or a power changing box, with an extension cord, that can go from the 220v to a single leg 110, without having a wiring rework to do ??  Probably some others here have done this change. 


Thanks,  Cal

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4189/8512 - Release Date: 11/04/14

Respectfully,
Dan Hennis
;-)>

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Posted by: "Dan Hennis" <dhennis@centurytel.net>
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[Electric Boats] Re:Trolling motor for small DIY bow thruster?

 

Consider disconnecting the power completely before the motor.  Stray salt water or other currents can do damage to aluminum Minn Kota Motors.  One of mine has the rear shell ring corroded in short order.  I had the battery off, but I think there was residual current at work.  A sudden appearance on a $400 dollar motor, ouch.


Thanks,  Cal 

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Posted by: h20dragon@centurytel.net
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[Electric Boats] Electric 220 to 110 volt Conversion question

 

I have a question for the group.


In boats sometimes I need to have clean welding done, so i bought a Harbor freight 20 amp MIG wire feed welder ( 60 to 120 amp out).   A friend also gave me an older Dayton brand 26.6 amp input  "buzz box" welder (100 amps out) that both run on 110 volt AC wall plug type input.  Can they be run, one at a time, from a single 220 v. washer / dryer box circuit??  


 I don't think that using the house 110 volt would be safe, not so good for my older home wiring in the country.   The buzz box I will hope to use with magnesium rod,.mostly for steel sheet cutting.  The wire feed machine for building  stuff.  I have a good gas welder/cutter now, but like the MIG option.


I have an extra 220 clothes dryer plug, that might work if I could convert it to 110 safely.  Is there a plug, or a power changing box, with an extension cord, that can go from the 220v to a single leg 110, without having a wiring rework to do ??  Probably some others here have done this change. 


Thanks,  Cal

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[Electric Boats] Re: Electric trimaran conversion

 

Have you considered motorizing your port and starboard hulls? Keeping the diesel, maybe with a folding prop? If you hung removable rudders on the outer hulls with a gudgeon and pintle setup, you would have the advantages of twin screw maneuverability. Could be inboard electric, or those neat little pod motors. The Perkins like you say has low hours. You could mount two big alternators for charging the banks, one to either side of the PTO, and not place a lateral load on the shaft.

Or mount a pulley on the prop shaft driving/driven by a motor. Running the engine in gear then would charge the batteries via regen. With the gearbox in neutral the electric motor could either turn the prop or charge batteries via regeneration courtesy of the trailing prop. You could still carry a portable generator but you would also have the diesel for charging and propulsion. You wouldn't need a thrust bearing since the prop shaft is still coupled to the diesels gearbox.

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Re: [Electric Boats] Re:Trolling motor for small DIY bow thruster?

 

Yeah that was my major concern. I wonder how those pod motors manage it? Well it's not a pressing issue and it's not the end of the world if my 38 year old boat doesn't get a bow thruster. I just thought it would be way cool to have one. Maybe a jet ski pump unit... I bet I can find one cheap with a blown engine and power it with my spare 5kw motor.

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Re: [Electric Boats] Re:Trolling motor for small DIY bow thruster?

 



I think the main problem will be that trolling motors are not designed to be immersed for months.
It may go well, it may go bad, I would not trust them is such a situation.
On the other hand; your life is not depending on them (if the electric circuit is well fused).
 
Carel.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 3:49 AM
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re:Trolling motor for small DIY bow thruster?

 

I won't be sailing. The entire boat will eventually be shaded by a hard canopy with solar panels on top and all sail rigging is coming down. I considered the trolling motor rigged as you suggest but it will want more support, and be ugly and awkward. I thought about a motor well but that would mean giving up my vee berth. I think I want it in a tunnel, or not at all.

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