Wednesday, September 30, 2009

Re: [Electric Boats] Repowering 40' 1975 20,000 lb sailboat

 

Keith,

Concorde says their AGMs can be charged at up to 5C. You'd need a nuclear powerplant on board to do that!

Denny

----- Original Message -----
From: aweekdaysailor
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 6:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Repowering 40' 1975 20,000 lb sailboat

I am finding that charge acceptance is an issue with my wet lead-acid though a quality AGM should be better.

You ideally want to be able to put the full output of the generator into the batteries. With my setup it looks like I can only put 7-8amps in once the bulk phase is done. My genny/charger is ~22amp @48V and I could do 75amps if I had the juice.

The TPPL (AGM) batteries Nigel Calder is pushing might be the best choice when extended cruising - with those you could put..say..30-40 amps in and reasonably expect to charge the batteries off the genset in 2-3 hours of running. Otherwise you'll be basically cruising with the genset running full time (or worse sleeping with it running) - some of the juice going into the batteries, but the rest you have to burn off by running the motor (or just waste)

Otherwise, you'd have a fair chance of having to dock just so you could have quiet charging and a chance at sleep.

I think lithium is ~price competitive with TPPL if you factor in dollars/lifetime-KWH -- that's *if* the 2000-3000 cycle claims hold up.

My $0.02

-Keith

-----Denny Wrote---

"Still hard to beat AGM lead acid batteries for a sail boat - especially if you
can remove some of the lead you already have in the basement. A lithium bank
will increase initial cost 5x and its benefits of light weight and rapid charge
-discharge tolerance are not that important in your application."

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [Electric Boats] Repowering 40' 1975 20,000 lb sailboat

 

I am finding that charge acceptance is an issue with my wet lead-acid though a quality AGM should be better.

You ideally want to be able to put the full output of the generator into the batteries. With my setup it looks like I can only put 7-8amps in once the bulk phase is done. My genny/charger is ~22amp @48V and I could do 75amps if I had the juice.

The TPPL (AGM) batteries Nigel Calder is pushing might be the best choice when extended cruising - with those you could put..say..30-40 amps in and reasonably expect to charge the batteries off the genset in 2-3 hours of running. Otherwise you'll be basically cruising with the genset running full time (or worse sleeping with it running) - some of the juice going into the batteries, but the rest you have to burn off by running the motor (or just waste)

Otherwise, you'd have a fair chance of having to dock just so you could have quiet charging and a chance at sleep.

I think lithium is ~price competitive with TPPL if you factor in dollars/lifetime-KWH -- that's *if* the 2000-3000 cycle claims hold up.

My $0.02

-Keith

-----Denny Wrote---

"Still hard to beat AGM lead acid batteries for a sail boat - especially if you
can remove some of the lead you already have in the basement. A lithium bank
will increase initial cost 5x and its benefits of light weight and rapid charge
-discharge tolerance are not that important in your application."

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Re: [Electric Boats] Repowering 40' 1975 20,000 lb sailboat

 

I would agree with much of what is said here, but we should mention
the location of cruising as an important factor. For example I believe
that in the Chesapeake, where currents are mild( generally under 1.5
kts), and distances short, an all electric system that gave you 20
miles of voyaging would work. I am in the process of refitting my
Moody 34 ( 34' 11200 lbs) with a 260i system from electric yacht.
Cruising in eastern CT/ Long Island Sound and out to Block Island the
distances are relatively short, but the currents are strong and need to be
part of any voyage calculations... I will report back on how
sucessful the system is in these conditions.

Skip

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 8:42 AM, dennis wolfe <dwolfe@dropsheet.com> wrote:

>
>
> Joe,
>
> I'm curious about what percent of that 7,500 miles you were able to sail -
> I would guess not much sailing in the rivers & ICW.
>
> For electric you would need a budget of how much speed and time you need to
> run each day and use that (plus house loads) to size the battery bank.
> Ballpark - 1000 pounds of batteries would give you about 30 miles at 5 mph
> or 55 miles at 4 mph.
>
> Would you have access to shore power for recharging most nights? If not,
> that can be another deal breaker.
>
> A little gas generator (and a powerful battery charger) would be a comfort
> and a lot smoother and quieter than the ole' A4. The middle size Honda would
> probably get you 4 mph if you had a charger that could load it to 1.5 kw.
> I'd keep it on the swim platform.
>
> Still hard to beat AGM lead acid batteries for a sail boat - especially if
> you can remove some of the lead you already have in the basement. A lithium
> bank will increase initial cost 5x and its benefits of light weight and
> rapid charge -discharge tolerance are not that important in your
> application.
>
> Denny Wolfe
> www.wolfEboats.com
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [Electric Boats] Repowering 40' 1975 20,000 lb sailboat

 

While not electric boat related - I would like to know more about your great loop trip - did you keep a public log like a blog or web page? If so - can you share?

Are you part of the great loop message archive at http://lists.samurai.com/pipermail/great-loop/

Doing the loop is on my list - high up the list too!

Carl

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Re: [Electric Boats] Repowering 40' 1975 20,000 lb sailboat

 

Joe,

I'm curious about what percent of that 7,500 miles you were able to sail - I would guess not much sailing in the rivers & ICW.

For electric you would need a budget of how much speed and time you need to run each day and use that (plus house loads) to size the battery bank. Ballpark - 1000 pounds of batteries would give you about 30 miles at 5 mph or 55 miles at 4 mph.

Would you have access to shore power for recharging most nights? If not, that can be another deal breaker.

A little gas generator (and a powerful battery charger) would be a comfort and a lot smoother and quieter than the ole' A4. The middle size Honda would probably get you 4 mph if you had a charger that could load it to 1.5 kw. I'd keep it on the swim platform.

Still hard to beat AGM lead acid batteries for a sail boat - especially if you can remove some of the lead you already have in the basement. A lithium bank will increase initial cost 5x and its benefits of light weight and rapid charge -discharge tolerance are not that important in your application.

Denny Wolfe
www.wolfEboats.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [Electric Boats] Repowering 40' 1975 20,000 lb sailboat

 

If you already have a generator the choice is easy go hybrid. Lose the
motor and install an
Electric motor: http://www.bellmann.nu/?nr=13 Then a hi-power 60A
charger for the battery bank. Life is all good.
Worst case batteries to low 60A slow cruse mode.

On Sep 29, 2009, at 7:24 AM, donsaxton@ymail.com wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> i am a crusing sailer and i love the thought of a electric drive
> system.
>
> But from what i see here it doesent sound like a electric drive system
> is a effective option for my crusing life style.
>
> i would be very intrested in any contrary opinions.
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009

Re: [Electric Boats] Repowering 40' 1975 20,000 lb sailboat

 

Don:
 
I'm finishing up my second season under electric propulsion on my 8 ton 30 foot sailboat and I have no intention of ever going back to having a diesel engine on board.  My inaugural cruise last year was a 200 mile round trip to Newport RI. I just recently I completed a 140 mile trip to New York and back. Using a Honda 2000i along with solar and a Marine Air X 48 volt wind generator. I anchored most of the time and only charged up using the AC dock power two times. Why? Because it was there!<g>
You can see a little log of the journey  here http://biankablog.blogspot.com/2009/09/electric-sailboat-cruise-to-new-york.html  and here http://biankablog.blogspot.com/2009/09/electric-sailboat-cruise-to-new-york_26.html
 
I was a little apprehensive about making this trip because my Xantrex XBM battery monitor display went kaput earlier in the season so I had no way of know how much current I was drawing from the battery bank so I ran the generator a lot (used about three or four gallons) to keep the batteries charged as much as possible. Next time I make the trip I don't think I will have to do that because I found I did not have to use the electric propulsion as much as I thought I would for the trip down the East River. With each cruise I am more and more confident that I made the correct choice in going electric for auxilary propulsion on board.
 
Mike
http://biankablog.blogspot.com

--- On Tue, 9/29/09, donsaxton@ymail.com <donsaxton@ymail.com> wrote:

From: donsaxton@ymail.com <donsaxton@ymail.com>
Subject: [Electric Boats] Repowering 40' 1975 20,000 lb sailboat
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, September 29, 2009, 12:24 PM

 

Hi all,

i am a crusing sailer and i love the thought of a electric drive system.

But from what i see here it doesent sound like a electric drive system
is a effective option for my crusing life style.

i would be very intrested in any contrary opinions.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[Electric Boats] Re: Thrust from Trolling Motors

 



In message #12402 I posted results of tests that I conducted with and into a 20knt. wind with a trolling motor. The test instruments are very accurate. I was interested in the difference between speed settings to enable me to select the most efficient gear. Regards, Arthur.

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "bosunj.rm" <bosunj@...> wrote:
>
> I don't know if this will be helpful but 30kts of wind is equal to 1kt of current.
>
>
>
> --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "john.zimmerlee" <jpz@> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > What about trying to make headway into a 30-knot headwind?
> > > Wouldn't this "bollard pull test" static thrust information be useful for
> > > those of us who took the time to measure the loads while anchored in various
> > > wind strengths?
> > >
> > > JoeS.
> > >
> >
> > Answer: In my humble opinion, the static test churns up the water and does not let the prop perform the way it would passing through normal water.
> >
> > Again, if you want to move heavy objects less than 1 mph with a trolling motor . . . the static test is valid. Otherwise, useless.
> >
> > Who knows what the water is like in a 30 knot headwind?
> >
> > If speed and endurance is your objective, use your boat or find a canoe (minimal resistance), an effective GPS, and an accurate amp gauge.
> >
> > I have two GPSs. The one that has car, bike, and hiking modes jumps all over the place and worthless for monitoring speed. My aviation GPS reads accurately at low (2 mph)readings. Go figure!
> >
> > An accurate amp gauge is also hard to come by.
> >
> > My results with MinnKota's 30 amp motors show that the PWM control board does use less energy at lower speeds, but I also noticed that top speed was less with the PWM control.
> >
> > John
> >
>

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[Electric Boats] Re: Repowering 40' 1975 20,000 lb sailboat

 

Don,

I'm feeling contrary today, so I'll volunteer: cruising sailboats have two great electrifying opportunities.

1. all electric
2. fuel electric

1. The all electric folks are old-school (pre-steam engine) or new-school (solar panels, solar ovens, wind generators, tow-able water makers and generators). Fun stuff if you like independence over convenience or have a ton of money. All electric ranges from the super-cheap 24 minute propulsion systems to the very expensive 24 hour propulsion systems.

2. The fuel electric options range from the most common diesel generator(s) driving electric motor(s) to the rare and expensive space-age fuel cells driving an electric motor. Diesel-electric systems usually go about 30% farther than a diesel motor driving a propeller directly.

This is a very complicated average (30% farther) that arises from the stoichiometric and resonant advantages of running a generator at it's optimized power output level (minimizing fuel consumption) and the continuously variable power consumption of propelling vessels up and down swells. Diesel-transmission-propeller systems consume fuel evenly (without regard to swells) and at non-ideal RPMs, so they lose out on both advantages. There might be an "ideal" RPM for a drive diesel, but the fuel consumption vs power curve is fairly flat, since the engine was designed to operate well over a wide RPM range. Good genset engines are designed for specific RPMs, so their "ideal RPM" is much more ideal, like a two-stroke racing motorcycle "on the pipe" (taking advantage of internal air and mechanical resonance frequencies).

Cruizers with diesel-electric systems can be moored all night with the A/C running and never hear a generator. And when the genset does kick on, it is much quieter and smoother than a drive diesel. Additionally, propulsion is instantly available in a pinch. Boats faster than about 7 knots can even stuff some electrons back into the batteries as they sail.

Right now, I'm going cheap on my H55 Marco Polo. Used electric car motor, batteries, and motor controller for about %1,500. I'll add a genset later, but I should get at least 9 knots for an hour, or 4 knots for 4 hours (more if the batteries are healthy). Still working on it.

Mark Stafford

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "donsaxton@..." <donsaxton@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> i am a crusing sailer and i love the thought of a electric drive system.
>
> But from what i see here it doesent sound like a electric drive system
> is a effective option for my crusing life style.
>
> i would be very intrested in any contrary opinions.
>

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