Thursday, February 26, 2015

Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Lyman 13 Torqeedo Cruise 2.0 power consumption

 

Before finding this site,  I did purchase a Kipawa prop but since it is still winter here haven't tried it yet. I was also thinking of making a fairing for the shaft as well.


After doing some research here, I was also thinking of trying the Torqeedo prop on the trolling motor.


Most of the nearby lakes around me are electric only state parks and, from what I have witnessed, have not been exposed to a real electric powered boat of any significance to test the 'electric only' rule.  My goal with this setup is just a nice no-wake cruising speed with some reserve power if needed.  With two small children getting used to boating, this is about my limit at the time. 


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Posted by: sa_michael@verizon.net
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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Lyman 13 Torqeedo Cruise 2.0 power consumption

 

There are other prop makers who do props, and "power props" for all versions of Minn Kota.  Both two and three bladed models are a direct conversion, bolt it on and go.  I lay mine in the truck, so I needed to stick to two blades, but with extra batteries, set mounting on a boat, you can get more thrust, with a simple change.  The factory props are "weed less" and that restricts the drive shape and more.
 
Later,  Cal 
 
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 7:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Lyman 13 Torqeedo Cruise 2.0 power consumption
 
 

FWIW -

I have a Catalina 22 that I tried running a 24V Minn Kota Traxxis 80 trolling motor on.  Granted - when you're in a SAILBOAT, you know you're not going to go that fast.  But the fastest the Minn Kota would do was about 3.8mph (and that was at FULL POWER, going down wind with about a 10mph breeze, just no sails up...).

I've also tried a Torqeedo 2.0R and Torqeedo 4.0R on the same boat.
The Torqeedo 2.0R will easily push the C-22 faster than the Minn Kota at half the power.  At full power, it will go substantially faster than the Minn Kota.

I have to believe that the prop on the respective motors has a LOT to do with this.  The Torqeedo has a very large high pitch prop.  All the trolling motors have much smaller props that are pitched to go a max of 3-4mph.

For the money ($600 at the time vs. about $3300?) - it seemed worth trying the trolling motor.  The trolling motor definitely works - it definitely pushes the boat.  Just not really fast.
 
What I'd love to have time to experiment with is putting the Torqeedo prop on the Traxxis motor, and see what happened then...   I suspect you might have to keep the power down on the Traxxis to keep from overheating it - but that you would get much better performance in terms of speed.
 
John
 

From: "sa_michael@verizon.net [electricboats]" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2015 2:03 PM
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Lyman 13 Torqeedo Cruise 2.0 power consumption
 
 
Robert,
 
After running the boat, do you think the additional cost of the Torqeedo 2.0 over the 1003 with remote throttle (and custom modified steering) was worth it?
 
The reason I ask is that I am considering a similar setup on a 16' 1960 Penn Yan Baltic with an empty weight of about 550lbs.  So far I have done some basic testing a few times with a 55lb Minn Kota 12V PWM trolling motor modified for remote throttle and steering with 'acceptable' results and run times for slow speed small lake cruising. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to take any measurements at the time however I did manage a 3 hour cruise at about 60% throttle with 3 adults and light gear on calm water until the integral LED battery meter was at 50%.
 
I am constantly going back and forth as to which route I want to ultimately pursue.  The 1003 is less money, but the proprietary battery appears to be a possible drawback.  Granted, having never seen one in person, I may be wrong.
 
Sean


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Posted by: "cal" <h20dragon@centurytel.net>
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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Lyman 13 Torqeedo Cruise 2.0 power consumption

 

FWIW - 

I have a Catalina 22 that I tried running a 24V Minn Kota Traxxis 80 trolling motor on.  Granted - when you're in a SAILBOAT, you know you're not going to go that fast.  But the fastest the Minn Kota would do was about 3.8mph (and that was at FULL POWER, going down wind with about a 10mph breeze, just no sails up...).

I've also tried a Torqeedo 2.0R and Torqeedo 4.0R on the same boat.
The Torqeedo 2.0R will easily push the C-22 faster than the Minn Kota at half the power.  At full power, it will go substantially faster than the Minn Kota.

I have to believe that the prop on the respective motors has a LOT to do with this.  The Torqeedo has a very large high pitch prop.  All the trolling motors have much smaller props that are pitched to go a max of 3-4mph.

For the money ($600 at the time vs. about $3300?) - it seemed worth trying the trolling motor.  The trolling motor definitely works - it definitely pushes the boat.  Just not really fast.

What I'd love to have time to experiment with is putting the Torqeedo prop on the Traxxis motor, and see what happened then...   I suspect you might have to keep the power down on the Traxxis to keep from overheating it - but that you would get much better performance in terms of speed.

John


From: "sa_michael@verizon.net [electricboats]" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2015 2:03 PM
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Lyman 13 Torqeedo Cruise 2.0 power consumption

 
Robert,

After running the boat, do you think the additional cost of the Torqeedo 2.0 over the 1003 with remote throttle (and custom modified steering) was worth it?

The reason I ask is that I am considering a similar setup on a 16' 1960 Penn Yan Baltic with an empty weight of about 550lbs.  So far I have done some basic testing a few times with a 55lb Minn Kota 12V PWM trolling motor modified for remote throttle and steering with 'acceptable' results and run times for slow speed small lake cruising. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to take any measurements at the time however I did manage a 3 hour cruise at about 60% throttle with 3 adults and light gear on calm water until the integral LED battery meter was at 50%.

I am constantly going back and forth as to which route I want to ultimately pursue.  The 1003 is less money, but the proprietary battery appears to be a possible drawback.  Granted, having never seen one in person, I may be wrong.

Sean


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Posted by: oak <oak_box@yahoo.com>
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Tuesday, February 24, 2015

[Electric Boats] Re: Lyman 13 Torqeedo Cruise 2.0 power consumption

 

Robert,


After running the boat, do you think the additional cost of the Torqeedo 2.0 over the 1003 with remote throttle (and custom modified steering) was worth it?


The reason I ask is that I am considering a similar setup on a 16' 1960 Penn Yan Baltic with an empty weight of about 550lbs.  So far I have done some basic testing a few times with a 55lb Minn Kota 12V PWM trolling motor modified for remote throttle and steering with 'acceptable' results and run times for slow speed small lake cruising. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to take any measurements at the time however I did manage a 3 hour cruise at about 60% throttle with 3 adults and light gear on calm water until the integral LED battery meter was at 50%.


I am constantly going back and forth as to which route I want to ultimately pursue.  The 1003 is less money, but the proprietary battery appears to be a possible drawback.  Granted, having never seen one in person, I may be wrong.


Sean

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Posted by: sa_michael@verizon.net
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[Electric Boats] Re: Lithium battery storage

 

Here is my take on lithium storage.
1) don't float the cells.
2) for long-term storage, don't worry about charging up to 100% before layup
3) but also don't maniacally pursue some ideal state of charge for storage.

In my case, there was some draw-down of the pack after my last charge session.
- The boat was charged to about 100% (Elcon charger finished its cycle without the BMS interrupting).
- I scheduled my haul-out with the marina
- The boat sat for about a week, with the charger off, and some house systems running, such as the DCDC converter, bilge pump, etc.
- for the trip to the service dock, we did a little tour around the marina and out (to the first marker and back)
- once hauled out, the boat sat for a couple of weeks before being covered.  I left the cells in at this time to run house lights and other things while working on the boat.
- finally removed the batteries before closing up the boat.
All told, I probably ran down to 90% SoC.
While not 40% SoC, I doubt that it will impact the overall life or capacity of my pack since my yearly cycles will be in the neighbourhood of 20-30 cycles per season.  So if my battery abuse reduces my pack life from 2000 cycles down to 1000, I still have 30 seasons of use ahead of me.  If I get only 300 cycles, I still have 10 seasons, which I would judge to be more than acceptable.  Other factors that age the pack into oblivion will likely have more of an affect.

I have done the tour of the googlewebs on the topic and found much "collective wisdom" and testimony but little in the way of reported data.  Mind you, how does one test the impact of 10 6-months storage cycles at 100%SoC vs 80%, 50%, 40%, 20%, while at the same time, not taking at least 5 years to collect that data?
Perhaps by seeing the effect of 1-month, 2-month and 3-month storage intervals and projecting to 6-month storage cycles.  I would be very interested in reading such a report.  Here's one that looks interesting, but behind a paywall...
http://jes.ecsdl.org/content/159/8/A1283.abstract

Mind you, I also really like my lithium bank and would like it to last as long as practical (as opposed to possible).  I probably will store it at a lower SoC next season.  And since I have plans to repackage the cells into a monolithic battery box, removing them from the boat may become impractical.  The spec sheet for my cells indicates that charging while the cells are below freezing (<0C) is a big no-no.  However, discharging is fine down to -20C.  This past winter has been rather cold -- consistently below -20C, which is the low end of the storage temperature range on the battery spec sheet.  So I would like to see data from battery suppliers about what happens to cells that are stored outside of the "approved" ranges as well instead of just listing the upper/lower bounds of what they deem acceptable.  Do the cold temperatures cause the electrolyte to crystallize and stratify, thereby reducing the chemical reaction area?  Is there a knee in the curve that happens around -20C?  Can it be pushed to -25C without too much ill effect?  What about storing cells at a punishing -40C for 6 months.  What will that do to cycle life if done for one season, two seasons, etc?

/Jason

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Posted by: jt.yahoo@jtaylor.ca
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Monday, February 23, 2015

Re: [Electric Boats] Lithium battery storage

 

Jason,

Unlike lead-acid, Lithiums DO NOT like to be stored fully charged, especially in hot weather.

Peruse the Net for "Lithium battery storage". Conventional wisdom is to store them at around 40% SoC.

I am not surprised that your voltages are identical, but self-discharge should be negligible unless there's a tiny BMS load.

In your cool storage spot your pack should be ok, but in your shoes I would discharge the pack down to at least 50% SoC for the remainder of the winter.

JoeS.

On Feb 23, 2015, at 05:00 , Jason Taylor jt.yahoo@jtaylor.ca [electricboats] wrote:

> I removed my lithium pack from my boat for the winter. Here's a blog-post I wrote about it:
> http://svfugu.blogspot.ca/2015/02/battery-storage-and-self-discharge.html
>
> Short version:
> 16 cells all read within 0.001V of each other after being disconnected for 4 months. Cell voltage is 3.328V.
> I expect my pack will be around 80% state of charge by launch at end of May, early June.
>
> /Jason

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Posted by: Joe Siudzinski <siudzinski@telis.org>
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[Electric Boats] Lithium battery storage

 

I removed my lithium pack from my boat for the winter. Here's a blog-post I wrote about it:
http://svfugu.blogspot.ca/2015/02/battery-storage-and-self-discharge.html

Short version:
16 cells all read within 0.001V of each other after being disconnected for 4 months. Cell voltage is 3.328V.
I expect my pack will be around 80% state of charge by launch at end of May, early June.

/Jason

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Posted by: Jason Taylor <jt.yahoo@jtaylor.ca>
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Sunday, February 22, 2015

RE: [Electric Boats] Experience using LiPo batteries for Torqeedo remote?

 

In addition to all the previous, Torqeedo now markets their own larger LiPo 24 volt battery pack. Not the least expensive route but should make for an easy installation.

Cheers,

Ric

 

From: electricboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2015 5:33 PM
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Experience using LiPo batteries for Torqeedo remote?

 

 

esidave,

 

Most Torqeedos are spec'ed to run considerably over their nominal voltage. See your owners manual for your model. For example the Cruise 4 will run up to 65 volts so I use 18 or19 cells of LiFePO4 and charge them to 64 volts. Many users run five 12volt lead acid batteries with the Cruise 4. There is one caution if you push the limit. The Torqeedos will not turn on if you go over the limit so you need a heavy load handy to knock down any overcharge. An element from a hot water heater with a couple of clip leads or a connector will work in a few minutes. There are two advantages to going as high as possible on the voltage. You will have more capacity and you will draw less current. The current is what heats up the motor and can cause the protective circuitry to cut back on available power to the motor. As I recall, their 24 volt motors will not go high enough in voltage to allow three 12 volt cells but if you are building your own Li bank you can probably go to nine or ten cells rather than eight.

Best wishes,

Ned

 

On Feb 19, 2015, at 2:47 PM, esldave@rocketmail.com [electricboats] wrote:



 

 

I have a Torqeedo outboard motor with removable lithium battery pack.  It also came with a remote connection to allow the use of large 24 volt system.  Does anyone see any issues with my replacing the wet deep cycle batteries with gel cells or even LiPo?

 

 

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Posted by: "Richard Sanders" <rsandersemail@gmail.com>
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Saturday, February 21, 2015

Re: [Electric Boats] Experience using LiPo batteries for Torqeedo remote?

 

esidave,

Most Torqeedos are spec'ed to run considerably over their nominal voltage. See your owners manual for your model. For example the Cruise 4 will run up to 65 volts so I use 18 or19 cells of LiFePO4 and charge them to 64 volts. Many users run five 12volt lead acid batteries with the Cruise 4. There is one caution if you push the limit. The Torqeedos will not turn on if you go over the limit so you need a heavy load handy to knock down any overcharge. An element from a hot water heater with a couple of clip leads or a connector will work in a few minutes. There are two advantages to going as high as possible on the voltage. You will have more capacity and you will draw less current. The current is what heats up the motor and can cause the protective circuitry to cut back on available power to the motor. As I recall, their 24 volt motors will not go high enough in voltage to allow three 12 volt cells but if you are building your own Li bank you can probably go to nine or ten cells rather than eight.
Best wishes,
Ned

On Feb 19, 2015, at 2:47 PM, esldave@rocketmail.com [electricboats] wrote:

 

I have a Torqeedo outboard motor with removable lithium battery pack.  It also came with a remote connection to allow the use of large 24 volt system.  Does anyone see any issues with my replacing the wet deep cycle batteries with gel cells or even LiPo?



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Posted by: Ned Farinholt <nedfarinholt@comcast.net>
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Re: [Electric Boats] Experience using LiPo batteries for Torqeedo remote?

 

Two points:

1. See exactly what the Torqeedo operating voltage limits are, and make sure you stay within them.

2. If using LiPo or LiFePO4, select the number of cells needed to match the needed voltages, have a charger which is compatible, and have a good BMS which not only manages the individual cells but provides overvoltage and undervoltage protection.

Other than that, no problem, as the Torqeedo simply wants to suck a certain number of amps at a certain voltage and you simply want to ensure that the pack can provide that for the amount of time you'll be needing it. Don't design for the worst-case of long-term full-throttle current draw, as you will quickly find that lower-speed cruising is MUCH more efficient.

JoeS.

On Feb 19, 2015, at 11:47 , esldave@rocketmail.com [electricboats] wrote:

>
>
> I have a Torqeedo outboard motor with removable lithium battery pack. It also came with a remote connection to allow the use of large 24 volt system. Does anyone see any issues with my replacing the wet deep cycle batteries with gel cells or even LiPo?

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RE: [Electric Boats] 47' Catamaran Project

 

Hi Gang,

Sally, Congratulations on having the Gunboats use your units. I would have used your equipment on our1990 Catana 42 one side engine replacement but as you know you were a bit out f my price range. I ended up going with an AC34 from Thunderstruck in California. I was able to make a bracket that bolted to the existing Volvo Penta sail drive and it seems to be working out. There are still a few bug but they are all working out. I can get up to hull speed with the electric alone but, as I am sure we all know, not for long. 4 to 5 knots works well and I think I'll be able to get the generator to handle that load if I need it long term. Plus I still have the old Volvo Diesel in the other side. All in all it is proving out for me.

 

As for the 10 year project, so far I am 17 months into an 18 month refit project. I figure another 6 months and I'll be close. Now a couple sailboat races and race boat deliveries (still need to pay for this) plus taking the summer off to spend some time at home with my wife, have extended this time table so I actually feel like I'm close to my original estimates for the refit. Isn't tunnel vision and the ability to ignore reality great!

Cheers,

Ric

 

Can anyone point me to a thread regarding propane hot water heaters?

 

 

 

 

From: electricboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2015 11:50 AM
To: electricboats
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] 47' Catamaran Project

 

 

Gunboat is now using the Oceanvolt electric saildrives on their G4. The Oceanvolt saildrives are very state of the art and high quality - so is the G4. If you haven't looked at Gunboat's site, do so. That boat is crazy fast! 

 

Sally Reuther

 

 

On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 6:46 AM, Steve Dolan sdolan@scannersllc.com [electricboats] <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

The Tang Electric System was put together by Dave Tether who built and developed the Solomons System I have on my boat. Last I heard Dave was not doing it any more but his site is still up.

 

http://www.electricmarinepropulsion.org/Index.html

 

Don't be afraid of higher voltages (Mine is 144V) on board. This is just like working on an Electric Panel in your house, don't stick your fingers in a place you're not sure of. When working on my pack I break it down to 48V's when I'm doing maintenance. All the High Voltage equipment and connections are in well protected boxes and I know to prepare for going into them.

Jason the Tang wasn't a Gunboat. It was built by TAG YACHTS. It had somewhat of a bad rap on its Electrical system do to many quality control issues with the boat. I talked to Dave Tether extensively about it and he was not happy with the builder. Main problem was the rush job to get it on the show circuit. I have heard of the "dumping power" issue with the 410 though I haven't experienced it yet. It's probably only going  to happen on extended cruising times.

 

Now Gunboat did use the Electric Marine system in their boat "Moonwave"

http://www.moonwave-systems.com/catamaran-hybrid-propulsion/

 

I believe the boat is in charter now which unless a Hybrid was to be a Captained boat by the owner I would never do.

 

Steve in Solomons MD

Lagoon 410 S2E

 

 

 

A couple of years ago, I had the pleasure of talking with the systems engineer for the  60' Gunboat catamaran, Tang! while it was moored in Fort Pierce, Fla. on their recent Atlantic crossing, they had to dump power they were generating so much. So whichever way you go, make sure that regen power flows are considered. You may just have to order hot showers for the crew, twice a day in order to handle the extra power. 

 

Cheers,

 

/Jason

 

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Posted by: "Richard Sanders" <rsandersemail@gmail.com>
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