Saturday, October 31, 2009

RE: [Electric Boats] Re: New "battery" Tech

 

Please folks, let’s not waste bandwidth here talking about etherware or technology that is “promising”, or  “just around the corner”, but meanwhile extremely expensive and generally unavailable to our interest group.  These things may come to market in our time, or not, but as moderator, I have to call a stop to ask that you not post new, unmarketed technology announcements to this list or responding to these posts.  Doing so risks putting unmoderated posting privileges at risk.  There have been several promising battery technologies that have never made it to market, were pulled from the market or are otherwise generally too expensive or unavailable.  Evercel offered amazing new battery technology (nickel zinc) 6 years ago or so, but after a brief appearance on the market ( they were available thru Cabella’s), the company issued a single license to a Korean company that doesn’t seem to have done anything with the technology.  And in the early 90’s, we were told we were imminently close to having production, affordable electromagnetic batteries (EMB’s or flywheel energy storage systems) by several firms, yet now, 15+ years later, we still cannot go out and buy an affordable flywheel energy storage “battery” unit for electric vehicles.

 

Based on such experience, I’m a bit sensitive to marketing pitches and etherware promises.

 

-Moderator, Electricboats

 

>With respect to promising new battery chemistry, this Zinc-Air  might be cheaper and and safer than Lithium types. Compressed air takes a lot of energy to create, not very efficient because it wastes heat like crazy, at least it does in my shop air compressor!!!
>http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/10/zinc-air-battery-revolt-3-times-more-energy-lithium-ion-battery-electric-cars.php

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[Electric Boats] Introduction, was FW: [EVDL] Spring is here,

 

G'day All

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Myles Twete" <matwete@...> wrote:
>
> Forwarding this post with permission from poster to EV list regarding an
> outboard conversion...

Myles encouraged me to join this group, as the poster of the "spring is here" message to the Electric Vehicle Discssion List (EVDL). So here I am, and a bit of an introduction:

I live in Tasmania, Australia (hence "spring...") where I have a small electrotechnology business servicing, reparing, calibrating whatever local industry breaks ( www.teknik.com.au if anyone is interested enough). My background is mostly industrial electronics and industrial instrumentation, with a bit of radiocommunications and metal fabrication thrown in for good measure. My father (now retired) was a commercial fisherman, so my family background includes a lot of boats.

I've been interested in electric propulsion for about 20 years, and have been trying to get an on-road electric vehicle conversion done for about 10 years, hope to have one finished soon (a 1991 Honda Civic hatchback).

For the last few years I've been helping the Australian Maritime College Vessel Propulsion Lab (now part of the University of Tasmania) with their "Greenliner" electric boat, a conversion of a 6m model fast-ferry hull to a single-seat electric boat that is used for student final-year projects. This uses a 48V system, a GE-EV1 SCR controller and (usually) 210Ah of gel batteries. Motor is a rebuilt/reconfigured forklift hydraulics type motor, set up between bearings with a reaction arm, allowing it to be its' own dyno when a load cell is connected to the arm. Propulsion is a water jet, which is far from ideal as a choice for propulsion but lends itself to the student projects being undertaken regarding the hull. One of the projects is low-speed application for water jets (in part sponsored by a jet manufacturer to generate information to be able to model jets for low speed applications).

The AMC-VPL senior lecturer persuaded me to build a couple of outboards to be used as part of the AMC-sponsored 'alternative propulsion rally' at last years' wooden boat festival here. The smaller motor is essentially completed, with the exception of needing a better fan on the outboard cover, as the stuff inside the cover gets too warm. The bigger one has been left sitting for now as it needs some mods and a new cover, but works fine. I started with outboards that were really in not good enough condition, but finding something with the right attributes that wasn't either out of my budget or missing the bits that I needed proved to be a problem.

Last summer my brother built a simple 11' plywood dinghy that turned out to be inappropriate for his purpose, so we did a deal. Over winter (with the help of dad) completed fitout and paint plus modified the hull with boxed in battery enclosures (under the middle seat), floatation, paint, etc. The smaller of the two outboards is a good match to this boat, so is being used with it.

Last weekend we put it into the water for the first time since the wooden boat festival, all worked well (as it should) but showed up some things that need to be done still - the outboard takes up too much of the transom seat area so will be put onto a bracket, so I can sit on the transom seat. The sides toward the bow are too flat, so in a light chop a fair bit of water splashes inboard. The plan at the moment is for a couple of slim 'pods' for the outside of the forward third of the hull that will also be some floatation. The transom has the same 'splash' issue when backing out from the boat ramp (this was anticipated) so the outboard bracket will be a boxed-in arrangement so that the splashes are less likely to come in.

That is far too much information for an introduction post, but never mind.

Regards

[Technik] James

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[Electric Boats] Re: Battery charger

 


This is fine with completely separate chargers or a single multi charger having fully isolated outputs . Dont try with the type of chargers that have a common connection.

Chris S
--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "wekpacbellnet" <billk356@...> wrote:
>
>
> Graham,
>
> The output cable of each charger goes to one pair of 6 volt golf cart style batteries. Even though all six batteries are connected in series the charger can only sense what exists between the positive post of the first battery and the negative post of the second battery in that one pair. The wiring is permanent. I turn on three switches for charging when connected to shore power. It works.
>
> Bill
>
> --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "grahammcg" <grahammcglashan@> wrote:
> >
> > Bill,
> > Interesting concept. How do you easily isolate the batteries before charging?
> > Graham
> >
> > --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, William Knebel <billk356@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I have used three ProSport 12 volt, 10 amps for my 36 volt system going on 2 years with no problems. I decided on individual chargers rather than a multi- bank charger so that a single failure won't leave me without the ability to charge.
> > >
> > > Bill knebel
> > >
> >
>

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[Electric Boats] Re: New "battery" Tech

 

With respect to promising new battery chemistry, this Zinc-Air  might be cheaper and and safer than Lithium types. Compressed air takes a lot of energy to create, not very efficient because it wastes heat like crazy, at least it does in my shop air compressor!!!

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/10/zinc-air-battery-revolt-3-times-more-energy-lithium-ion-battery-electric-cars.php

Sailonner
--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <ewdysar@...> wrote:
>
> I agree with Victor. This technology seems more suited for propulsion directly rather than use the compressed air to spin an alternator/generator, and then use the resulting electricity to spin a drive shaft.
>
> The description given said that 10 cylinders (I visualized scuba tanks) at 300bar represent 20Kw for 10 minutes, which translates to 3.3Kwh. Without many actual specifications, this system sounds bulky, complex and perhaps as heavy as regular AGM batteries. To be fair, the engineers were working towards solving different problems than we have with lead/acid energy storage, like the ability to stay "charged" for a decade in adverse conditions.
>
> Fair winds,
> Eric
> SoCal
>
> --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "vicwin2009@" sailor@ wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "marilynhays" <SayHey@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm alos a pilot, and and EAA member. I saw this link in the EAA newsletter and thought y'all might find it interesting too.
> > > http://pepei.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=ARTCL&PUBLICATION_ID=6&ARTICLE_ID=369242&C=Feat&dcmp=rss
> > >
> > > I hope that link works...
> > >
> > Hi Marilyn.
> >
> > Here in Norway it has been a lot of talk about compressed air as "battery". A small car made in India are using the system. It konsists of two 100liter carbo fiber tanks, with 300bar pressurised air. They had invented a new type of air motor. The plan was to produse a small car in France for the European market. The system should be suitable for boats too, if compressed air are available, or if you can produse it in an easy way.
> >
> > Victor
> >
>

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[Electric Boats] Re: Converting My Pearson 300

 

Agreed. The only part of my system that has not had any corrosion issues is the throttle-pot - warm and dry inside the cabin. I like my mechanical throttle linkage.

-Keith

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "acsarfkram" <acsarfkram@...> wrote:
>
> The SolidNav unit that I have on my boat uses the existing cables for throttle and forward/reverse. I like this system, the switches are not exposed to the elements (they are down below on the motor frame). It's also nice having separate controls, I often set the throttle at whatever speed I want then switch between forward and neutral to "coast". When I want power I shift into forward and the speed (amp draw) is already set, not a big deal but it works for me. An advantage to having a cable throttle is that it makes setting up an automatic shaft brake fairly easy. I've never had a problem with the cables.
>

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[Electric Boats] Re: Converting My Pearson 300

 

The SolidNav unit that I have on my boat uses the existing cables for throttle and forward/reverse. I like this system, the switches are not exposed to the elements (they are down below on the motor frame). It's also nice having separate controls, I often set the throttle at whatever speed I want then switch between forward and neutral to "coast". When I want power I shift into forward and the speed (amp draw) is already set, not a big deal but it works for me. An advantage to having a cable throttle is that it makes setting up an automatic shaft brake fairly easy. I've never had a problem with the cables.

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Friday, October 30, 2009

[Electric Boats] Re: Battery charger

 


Graham,

The output cable of each charger goes to one pair of 6 volt golf cart style batteries. Even though all six batteries are connected in series the charger can only sense what exists between the positive post of the first battery and the negative post of the second battery in that one pair. The wiring is permanent. I turn on three switches for charging when connected to shore power. It works.

Bill

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "grahammcg" <grahammcglashan@...> wrote:
>
> Bill,
> Interesting concept. How do you easily isolate the batteries before charging?
> Graham
>
> --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, William Knebel <billk356@> wrote:
> >
> > I have used three ProSport 12 volt, 10 amps for my 36 volt system going on 2 years with no problems. I decided on individual chargers rather than a multi- bank charger so that a single failure won't leave me without the ability to charge.
> >
> > Bill knebel
> >
>

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[Electric Boats] Re: New "battery" Tech

 

I agree with Victor. This technology seems more suited for propulsion directly rather than use the compressed air to spin an alternator/generator, and then use the resulting electricity to spin a drive shaft.

The description given said that 10 cylinders (I visualized scuba tanks) at 300bar represent 20Kw for 10 minutes, which translates to 3.3Kwh. Without many actual specifications, this system sounds bulky, complex and perhaps as heavy as regular AGM batteries. To be fair, the engineers were working towards solving different problems than we have with lead/acid energy storage, like the ability to stay "charged" for a decade in adverse conditions.

Fair winds,
Eric
SoCal

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "vicwin2009@..." <sailor@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "marilynhays" <SayHey@> wrote:
> >
> > I'm alos a pilot, and and EAA member. I saw this link in the EAA newsletter and thought y'all might find it interesting too.
> > http://pepei.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=ARTCL&PUBLICATION_ID=6&ARTICLE_ID=369242&C=Feat&dcmp=rss
> >
> > I hope that link works...
> >
> Hi Marilyn.
>
> Here in Norway it has been a lot of talk about compressed air as "battery". A small car made in India are using the system. It konsists of two 100liter carbo fiber tanks, with 300bar pressurised air. They had invented a new type of air motor. The plan was to produse a small car in France for the European market. The system should be suitable for boats too, if compressed air are available, or if you can produse it in an easy way.
>
> Victor
>

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[Electric Boats] Re: Battery charger

 

Extract from the Dual Pro web site:

http://www.dualpro.com/support/faq/

Q: I have a 24 volt trolling motor and my two deep cycle trolling batteries are wired in series. Do I have to remove the jumper wire between the batteries when I charge the batteries with my Dual Pro Charger?

A: No, there is no need to remove the series jumper because the Dual Pro consists of two totally independent chargers which share nothing in common. This allows for both batteries to independently but simultaneously charged.

Pierre

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "grahammcg" <grahammcglashan@...> wrote:
>
> Bill,
> Interesting concept. How do you easily isolate the batteries before charging?
> Graham

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[Electric Boats] Re: Battery charger

 

Bill,
Interesting concept. How do you easily isolate the batteries before charging?
Graham

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, William Knebel <billk356@...> wrote:
>
> I have used three ProSport 12 volt, 10 amps for my 36 volt system going on 2 years with no problems. I decided on individual chargers rather than a multi- bank charger so that a single failure won't leave me without the ability to charge.
>
> Bill knebel
>

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