Tuesday, June 30, 2009

Re: [Electric Boats] CNG/Tri-fuel Generators?



Kevin Pemberton wrote:
> The problem with CNG are the number of CNG outlets. Propane works as well, however one needs to consider the BTUs available, about 20% less power to the gallon. This translates into 20% less watts and 80% less time per gallon of fuel, so the generator needs to be sized accordingly.
>
My city has a fleet of CNG powered buses. The drivers complain they are
'gutless'. The buses have the same engine as their diesel counterparts
(with obvious changes for the different fuel), thus the drivers 'feel'
the derate as they drive both the CNG and diesel version of the same
vehicle.
I'm not aware of any one running a CNG car, although the taxi feel
makes extensive use of 'LPG' as we call it. (Mostly propane), and many
service stations are equiped to fill LPG cars - due to the Taxi /
commercial fleet. Only the main government owned bus operator uses
Natural Gas as the bus depot has to be feed from a high pressure gas
line and they only sprung for the money to equip two depots out of a
dozen or so. The 'private' operators see no value, expensive fueling
infrastructure and a derated engine.

Both Natural Gas and Liquid Petroleum Gas are orderless thus in
'retail' both have a perfume added so you can smell a leak.

On a small boat - is exchanging a tank of Petrol (gas)/diesel for a
pressure tank full of CNG / LPG a win anyway ?

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Re: [Electric Boats] CNG/Tri-fuel Generators?



The problem with CNG are the number of CNG outlets.  Propane works as well, however one needs to consider the BTUs available, about 20% less power to the gallon.  This translates into 20% less watts and 80% less time per gallon of fuel, so the generator needs to be sized accordingly.  One of the advantages is your generator will run slightly smoother and at a deeper tone, much like a retarded spark would produce.  Your generator will last longer because it will not coke up as badly (will run cleaner).  As I recall a kit is available from US carbs online for most makes of small engines.

Talking to different people the opinions are just as diverse, some like others feel they cost to much to run.

Kevin
http://simplyrv.imnugget.com

For RV information

--- On Tue, 6/30/09, Dave Kellogg <inganear1@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Dave Kellogg <inganear1@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] CNG/Tri-fuel Generators?
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 11:50 AM

Keith, do a google search on dual fuel carburetors, I'm going to run dual fuel on my 6500 watt Honda powered generator myself...  Dave K

--- On Tue, 6/30/09, aweekdaysailor <aweekdaysailor@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: aweekdaysailor <aweekdaysailor@ yahoo.com>

Subject: [Electric Boats] CNG/Tri-fuel Generators?

To: electricboats@ yahoogroups. com

Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 1:11 PM

Does anyone on the group have experience with using CNG on their generator? That seems an ideal solution (paired with CNG stove/heater/ fridge for example) - I really hate having gasoline on board and I have to say I've never successfully re-fueled any portable device without spilling gas (and CA's stupid CARB containers only make the problem worse).

I see kits on eBay for converting the Honda's/Yamaha' s to tri-fuel (propane/CNG/ gas)- not too expensive and claimed to be easy. I don't like propane for the same reasons as gas, so I'm interested in pro's/con's of CNG (like - is energy density/smell/ etc an issue?)

Thx

-Keith

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RE: [Electric Boats] CNG/Tri-fuel Generators?




well... I LOVE my CNG stove.... when you get the info.. please share

Richard Rumble

" Mister Hypnosis "

Comedy Hypnosis Shows

http://www.misterhypnosis.com

1-800-60-HYPNO


To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
From: aweekdaysailor@yahoo.com
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 17:11:14 +0000
Subject: [Electric Boats] CNG/Tri-fuel Generators?

Does anyone on the group have experience with using CNG on their generator? That seems an ideal solution (paired with CNG stove/heater/fridge for example) - I really hate having gasoline on board and I have to say I've never successfully re-fueled any portable device without spilling gas (and CA's stupid CARB containers only make the problem worse).

I see kits on eBay for converting the Honda's/Yamaha's to tri-fuel (propane/CNG/gas)- not too expensive and claimed to be easy. I don't like propane for the same reasons as gas, so I'm interested in pro's/con's of CNG (like - is energy density/smell/etc an issue?)

Thx

-Keith











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Re: [Electric Boats] CNG/Tri-fuel Generators?



Keith, do a google search on dual fuel carburetors, I'm going to run dual fuel on my 6500 watt Honda powered generator myself...  Dave K

--- On Tue, 6/30/09, aweekdaysailor <aweekdaysailor@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: aweekdaysailor <aweekdaysailor@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Electric Boats] CNG/Tri-fuel Generators?
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 1:11 PM

Does anyone on the group have experience with using CNG on their generator? That seems an ideal solution (paired with CNG stove/heater/fridge for example) - I really hate having gasoline on board and I have to say I've never successfully re-fueled any portable device without spilling gas (and CA's stupid CARB containers only make the problem worse).

I see kits on eBay for converting the Honda's/Yamaha's to tri-fuel (propane/CNG/gas)- not too expensive and claimed to be easy. I don't like propane for the same reasons as gas, so I'm interested in pro's/con's of CNG (like - is energy density/smell/etc an issue?)

Thx

-Keith

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[Electric Boats] Re: 27' full keel Dutch sailboat



Mark,
Thank you for your generous response and welcome. I will digest your tome soon and offer more info for greater and wider scrutiny. In the meantime, since you cite several drawbacks to solar re-charging. Would you instead recommend we pursue wind? And what about regeneration - a true hybrid. ???
Many thanks,
Michael

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Stafford" <mstafford@...> wrote:
>
> Michael,
>
> Congratulations on your new hole in the water! And on your bravery for stepping into the unknown!
>
> The good news: that's all the bad news. Your system sounds reasonable, your attitude exceptional. Continuing with the efforts you are already taking will make you an expert in quick order.
>
> Batteries: if they have vent caps, please make sure you see liquid in the top of each cell of each battery. If there is exposed metal, add distilled water so that all the metal is covered. Don't fill them up! There needs to be some extra room in there for air, and the acid solution would be too diluted with the extra water. If one battery has a cell that is already too full, don't extract any liquid... that would remove some of the necessary acid. "Equalizing" or slightly overcharging the batteries, converts the extra water to hydrogen and oxygen, eventually lowering the liquid level in that overfilled cell.
>
> Charger(s): If the batteries don't have cell vent caps, they are Sealed Lead Acid (SLA) batteries, or maintenance-free batteries, or gell batteries, or some other new technology that is very particular about how you charge them. An ordinary cheapo charger could ruin them.
>
> Metering is important: voltage definitely, amperage very hopefully, and RPM would be helpful for the whole community of like-minded pioneering souls you have found.
>
> Solar charging: this gets more complicated, with a lot of questions from us:
> 1. do you have/want a Bimini?
> 2. are you docked between large shading boats?
> 3. do you want crystalline or amorphous panels?
> 4. what solar equipment do you already have?
> 5. do you have a 48volt bank + a 12volt bank?
> 6. how many batteries, of what AmpHr rating?
> 7. a bunch more
>
> Pictures are worth volumes. You could post some pictures here in an album, or on GreenMarineRePower.org on your very own web-page. With your very own web-page, other people from this list could write comments and questions directly on that page, or here in email form. Additionally, when someone new finds out about electric boats, your page would be very helpful to them. I would love to help with that.
>
> In other words, welcome!
>
> Mark Stafford
> Secretary GreenMarineRePower Inc.
> http://GreenMarineRePower.org/
> 415-935-5090
> Oakland, CA
>
>
> --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Boucher <mboucher99@> wrote:
> >
> > hello all,
> > i have just joined the group.
> >
> > we recently bought a wonderful 40-yr old Dutch sailboat with a recently installed electric motor. 'she' is a 27' full-keel boat that displaces about 5,700 lbs.
> >
> > the
> > system was set up a couple of years ago by the previous owner to replace the nasty diesel engine using products from a company
> > called Thunderstruck. it includes eight, 6v 220amp Crown deep cycle batteries connected in series, which power a 48 volt MARS brushless, electric motor.
> >
> > i am electrically-illiterate, but an electrician friend is now helping us upgrade
> > the charging and metering systems.
> > we now have a good shore power system in place, but would love to have the boat be fully solar - wind and sun only.
> >
> > the previous owner had a small, low voltage trickle charger, which i think worked only marginally. we are seeking advice as to what sort of solar charging panel
> > should we use to keep these batteries charged between use. the boat
> > will be moored in a harbor on the coast of maine, and will be used
> > primarily on the weekends, leaving ample time between to recharge.
> > besides, the motor will be used sparingly - it is a sailboat after all! we get lots of sun, but of course endure periods of clouds and rain.
> >
> > suggestions would be most welcome.
> >
> > thank you,
> >
> >
> > Michael Boucher
> > Freeport Maine
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

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[Electric Boats] Re: new member and, of course, questions



hi Roland...

If you can place your hand on the motor it's probably not over heating badly. But if you cannot make headway against the river, then surely you need more power for safety and enjoyment.

I think the scooter motor you mentioned is a good track to follow... many are available, often complete with controller in wide HP ratings from 300-1500 watt. That would be about 2HP at the high end. Considering how small your current motor is and the performance you are obtaining, I would think at least 1HP (750 watts) would be a minimum worthwhile change.

Many of these larger motors might require 36 or 48 volts... but no big deal to simply add one or two more batteries in series with what you now have (I'd suggest keeping as close to the same type as possible). With higher voltage, you can obtain the increased power without big increases in current (power = volts x amps). Thus your existing wiring might even be usable. You WILL need a controller, and you will enhance your enjoyment lots by the ability to control speed/power as conditions warrant. I don't think a simple on/off switch is appropriate except for a toy :) Or maybe something so underpowered that you want "all you can get" at all times anyway!

There are tons of scooter motors of many sizes, shapes, power, etc available online (simply Google for them) and also they are popular on eBay. Here's just one site to get you started and more familiar with what's out there:

http://superkids.stores.yahoo.net/scmococoki.html

Of course, I have no affiliation with this firm, they simply were book marked in my "electric vehicle" folder.

I'm sure others here can advise you much better on appropriate pulley, prop, etc considerations. Best of luck with your new boat! Sure looks like fun!!

Russ

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Roland Kruijer" <martine_roland@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Group,
>
> My name is Roland Kruijer and I'm from The Netherlands.
>
> I'm just entering the electric community as I bought an electric boat just a couple of weeks ago. http://www.electraboat.com/
>
> Maybe some of you know this boat or have one. I'm having a little problem with the speed of the boat. I allready changed the pulleys but as a result, the motor becomes hot, so I'm figuring that is not the way to do it. It now has a 300 Watt, 24 V electric motor which would be sufficient in a pond, but I live by a slow streaming river, there for the motor is too weak. Oh, and the batteries are 2 x 12 V 200 amp in series.
> Now, I'm searching for a replacement (bigger) motor to use. Also I read there's need for a controller?? and I'm also looking for a throttle of some kind, because the boat now only has on/off switch.
>
> I saw on the net that there are lots of electric scootermotors for sale, can these be used?
> What kind of motor should I use? The boat doesn't have to be a speedboat.
> Is it possible to use an ordinary electric motor, but instead of the 300w one with 600 or 900 watt?
> I'm a bit concerned about the power of the batteries going straight to the motor. The orriginal set-up got the motor handwarm, but since I changed the pulley, its becomming, well, hotter.
>
>
> As I said, I'm just entering this electric world and do not have experience in electronics. I'm more an automotive guy, so any advice would be great!
>
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Roland Kruijer
>

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[Electric Boats] CNG/Tri-fuel Generators?



Does anyone on the group have experience with using CNG on their generator? That seems an ideal solution (paired with CNG stove/heater/fridge for example) - I really hate having gasoline on board and I have to say I've never successfully re-fueled any portable device without spilling gas (and CA's stupid CARB containers only make the problem worse).

I see kits on eBay for converting the Honda's/Yamaha's to tri-fuel (propane/CNG/gas)- not too expensive and claimed to be easy. I don't like propane for the same reasons as gas, so I'm interested in pro's/con's of CNG (like - is energy density/smell/etc an issue?)

Thx

-Keith

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[Electric Boats] Re: new member and, of course, questions



Roland,

Welcome. There are many little details that all fit together to make a happy electric boat. Like car motors, if the parts are designed to work together, it is a good car.

Your boat was designed to go great, but a little slower than you occasionally need. Mostly fine, but sometimes, for a few minutes, too slow.

If you want to play with pulleys and motors and controllers and batteries and cables and propellers and throttles, it will probably be expensive, but you might have a lot of fun.

If you want to boat, to go out on the water, just add a 50 to 100 pound thrust trolling motor, like the kind that fishing boats use to go slow. It could drink electrons from the same batteries you already have. Or the German Torqeedo: more expensive, but it would help you go faster through the narrow sections in the river than a trolling motor (fishing motor) might. Borrow a strong trolling motor and try it.

Motor controllers: right now, your motor controller is just an on/off switch. There are electronic controllers like this, that switch the power on and off hundreds or even thousands of times per second. These are great, but expensive, and the most popular technique is called Pulse Width Modulation (PWM). They send high voltage and amperage (speed and number of electrons) pulses to the motor.

A cheaper kind of controller gives the motor less voltage for less speed. It is easy to waste energy with this technique, since higher voltages make more efficient systems. Most European nations use 220volts AC for houses, while the generally more wasteful and less efficient USA uses 120volt AC.

If you are willing to play with the parts, and try some mix and match, and maybe ruin a few parts, Chris S. has a great suggestion about 750watt motors. You would have great fun. They are on the big side for the scooter market, but the pricing is still much better than larger motors, and the motor controller are much much cheaper too.

Another option: electric golf cart guts. You would need more batteries (whatever the golf cart voltage), but you would certainly go fast enough.

Good luck,
Mark Stafford

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "hardy71uk" <p0054107@...> wrote:
>
> I think a 750w motor would be ideal . 1KW maximum as larger is more expensive and would need a more expensive controller.
>
> Chris S
>
> --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Roland Kruijer" <martine_roland@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Group,
> >
> > My name is Roland Kruijer and I'm from The Netherlands.
> >
> > I'm just entering the electric community as I bought an electric boat just a couple of weeks ago. http://www.electraboat.com/
> >
> > Maybe some of you know this boat or have one. I'm having a little problem with the speed of the boat. I allready changed the pulleys but as a result, the motor becomes hot, so I'm figuring that is not the way to do it. It now has a 300 Watt, 24 V electric motor which would be sufficient in a pond, but I live by a slow streaming river, there for the motor is too weak. Oh, and the batteries are 2 x 12 V 200 amp in series.
> > Now, I'm searching for a replacement (bigger) motor to use. Also I read there's need for a controller?? and I'm also looking for a throttle of some kind, because the boat now only has on/off switch.
> >
> > I saw on the net that there are lots of electric scootermotors for sale, can these be used?
> > What kind of motor should I use? The boat doesn't have to be a speedboat.
> > Is it possible to use an ordinary electric motor, but instead of the 300w one with 600 or 900 watt?
> > I'm a bit concerned about the power of the batteries going straight to the motor. The orriginal set-up got the motor handwarm, but since I changed the pulley, its becomming, well, hotter.
> >
> >
> > As I said, I'm just entering this electric world and do not have experience in electronics. I'm more an automotive guy, so any advice would be great!
> >
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> > Roland Kruijer
> >
>

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