Re: [electricboats] Newbie - 20+ foot boat for wide/long river in Guyana, South America

I agree with Eric. That said, more and more electric outboards are coming on the market and prices should become competitive. 

Building your own battery saves thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars. Using a junkyard battery is even more affordable - but more work. Total cost for 50kWh should be around USD20,000. 

Using an inboard electric motor is also less expensive. If course it then needs shaft, seal, etc. making installation a bit more complicated. www.thunderstruck-EV.com has a pair of 35kW motors in line for 70kW total under USD10,000 (https://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/ac-35x2-w-1238e-7621-clone.html). 

It's easier to buy a plug and play system, but you save significantly by assembling the system yourself. My guess is you could be up and running for around USD35,000-40,000 max. Plus the boat, of course. Still a lot of money. 

Best wishes,

Reuben Trane 

Mobile: 786.303.1013

Re: [electricboats] Newbie - 20+ foot boat for wide/long river in Guyana, South America

Thanks Eric, Reuben

 

 

This is really interesting.  The summary below is perfect.  It looks like the electric conversion cost has to drop significantly in order for this to be a feasible, practical project.  I may just continue to enhance my knowledge and perhaps tinker with a smaller experimental project while waiting for the costs to come down (hopefully).

 

I will continue to monitor all of the great conversations which happens in this forum. 

 

Thank you to everyone for your input. It is invaluable!!!

 

Raj

 

 

 

From: electricboats@groups.io <electricboats@groups.io> On Behalf Of Eric via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2023 11:12 AM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] Newbie - 20+ foot boat for wide/long river in Guyana, South America

 

Reuben is getting closer to what might be required.

Raj, is your regular trip 30 miles round trip or one way?  

In either case, your current boat converted to Torqeedo power as suggested will have a usable range around 18 miles at 25mph with 1 Torqeedo Deep Blue 40 battery, according to the Torqeedo specs.  That battery has a list price of $32k US.  Given that range, you'll need 2 of the batteries to make a 30 mile trip in 75 minutes of run time.  The batteries are just over 600# each.  So you could repower your current boat with Torqeedo motor and batteries for $90k US.  Then you'll need charger(s).  You should also consider the time to recharge the 60+kWh used going the 30 miles once attached to a suitable shore power source.  Lastly, due to the high tech nature of Torqeedo products, they are not available with factory support in some countries.  I don't know if Guyana is on their list.

If your monthly gasoline bill is around $1000 US, it will be a long time before you break even on the investment.  

With your current outboard, parts and service should be readily available, performance is better, and re-fueling takes minutes, not hours or days.  It's all about the trade-offs, and while I am a huge proponent of electric conversions, you would be making considerable sacrifices to go electric for how you use your boat.  Yours is a big project and pretty expensive to do just to see if it works.  What happens if after $100k US, it doesn't meet your needs?  Just something to consider.

Eric

Re: [electricboats] Newbie - 20+ foot boat for wide/long river in Guyana, South America

Reuben is getting closer to what might be required.

Raj, is your regular trip 30 miles round trip or one way?  

In either case, your current boat converted to Torqeedo power as suggested will have a usable range around 18 miles at 25mph with 1 Torqeedo Deep Blue 40 battery, according to the Torqeedo specs.  That battery has a list price of $32k US.  Given that range, you’ll need 2 of the batteries to make a 30 mile trip in 75 minutes of run time.  The batteries are just over 600# each.  So you could repower your current boat with Torqeedo motor and batteries for $90k US.  Then you’ll need charger(s).  You should also consider the time to recharge the 60+kWh used going the 30 miles once attached to a suitable shore power source.  Lastly, due to the high tech nature of Torqeedo products, they are not available with factory support in some countries.  I don’t know if Guyana is on their list.

If your monthly gasoline bill is around $1000 US, it will be a long time before you break even on the investment.  

With your current outboard, parts and service should be readily available, performance is better, and re-fueling takes minutes, not hours or days.  It’s all about the trade-offs, and while I am a huge proponent of electric conversions, you would be making considerable sacrifices to go electric for how you use your boat.  Yours is a big project and pretty expensive to do just to see if it works.  What happens if after $100k US, it doesn’t meet your needs?  Just something to consider.

Eric

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Re: [electricboats] Newbie - 20+ foot boat for wide/long river in Guyana, South America

Your 75HP could be replaced with a 55kW motor and produce the same types of speed with similar (or same) boat and loads.

Let's assume 50kWh for your 1-hour round trip. That would be the size of the battery.

My battery is 50kWh and weighs just under 1,500#. The Winston cells cost just under USD 20,000 including shipping from
China. The motor voltage will determine the amount of cells you'll use. A less expensive path would be to buy a junkyard Tesla (or similar EV) battery and repurpose for your boat.

A Torqeedo Deep Blue 50R is USD 24,000 and uses 360v. It would take 112 cells (3.2v ea) with 140AH each to make the battery. Plus the BMS, connectors and battery charger. Torqeedo sells the BMW i3 battery - you'd need 2 - each weighs 256kg. That would be an easier installation since it is matched to the motor and has built in BMS. Most likely Torqeedo has a matching charger.

Best wishes,

Reuben Trane
Mobile: 786.303.1013

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Re: [electricboats] Newbie - 20+ foot boat for wide/long river in Guyana, South America

I currently have a 75HP two stroke on a custom built wooden 20 ft deep V.  We use this for almost every trip now.

 

Thanks

Raj

 

From: electricboats@groups.io <electricboats@groups.io> On Behalf Of Reuben Trane via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2023 4:52 PM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] Newbie - 20+ foot boat for wide/long river in Guyana, South America

 

One more question - with the load you carry (persons and gear) - how much HP do you now require to go the speed you want and size and type of current boat. 

a deep V hull is not needed for river cruising and takes more power to go the same speed as a modified V hull. 

Re: [electricboats] Newbie - 20+ foot boat for wide/long river in Guyana, South America

The basic ratio developed by this group almost 15 years ago, and used widely across the industry now is: 1kW/ton to achieve 95% hull speed.  For my boat, Bermuda 30, full keel ketch, 10,800# displacement, that means 5kW should deliver 6kts, and that is right where controlled environment performance measurements have her.  This formula works while in displacement mode only, planing is a different problem, where the energy required goes up exponentially, until you’re up on a plane.  Very few electric boats can do that successfully in practical use.

Keep in mind that for electric, HP to kW comparisons aren’t really relevant.  For Serenity, the 5kW calculates to 6.6hp.  But the 12hp diesel that I removed from her, struggled to push her at 5.5kts at full throttle.

My new (to me) power boat for the Columbia River is of similar weight.  Silver Lining is a ‘78 Glas Ply 28, deep V cabin cruiser that is around 10,000# fully loaded, she cruises at 30kts using around 400hp, from two 300hp gasoline V8.  I would not consider converting Silver Lining to electric.

Electric boats are great, for the correct use cases.  Fossil fuel is much more practical in the way that many people use their boats.  Personally, I do not think that electric will be a cost effective or practical solution for what you have described.

Good luck with your project.

Eric
Camas, WA
Serenity - Bermuda 30 ketch, electric
Witchcraft - F-27 trimaran, gasoline outboard
Silver Lining - Glas Ply 28, twin gasoline inboards

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Re: [electricboats] Newbie - 20+ foot boat for wide/long river in Guyana, South America

One more question - with the load you carry (persons and gear) - how much HP do you now require to go the speed you want and size and type of current boat. 

a deep V hull is not needed for river cruising and takes more power to go the same speed as a modified V hull. 

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Re: [electricboats] Splitting 48V System Into Two Boxes?

I want to say thanks to all of you for the depth of knowledge and the thought you all put into your responses. 

I will reply with some pics when I install over the next couple weeks. 

Aaron Smith

On May 3, 2023, at 9:08 PM, Dave Yamakuchi via groups.io <dyamakuchi=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:



Matt is of course 100% correct on the fineness of the welding cable strands being more susceptible to corrosion.  Finer strands _do_ lower the inductance though, which might be an advantage depending on your controller but...

In any case I go with Diesel Locomotive Cable for anything exposed to elements.  It's tinned, has finer strands than the standard stuff, and is about as rugged as you'll find without going to something exotic.  You should at least tin the _connections_ if you aren't using tinned cable.  I know you said properly crimped, but tinning afterwards goes a long way to combat the corrosion.  It always starts on the ends.  Shrink wrap too afterwards regardless.

I'm sceptical about the other fellows recommendation regarding the bypass for cell balance though.  You mentioned having eight wires for each bank, which I assumed was two for each 12V cell for charging and two for sense.  16 total.  Double check in the charger's docs but it would be unusual if the charging was through one pair but the balance was through the sense wires.  The charging will be through the bigger wires.

Best of luck!  :-)

On Wednesday, May 3, 2023 at 07:12:15 PM CDT, Matt Foley <matt@sunlightconversions.com> wrote:

Just an FYI. Welding cable is not advised on a boat.  Its not tinned and has very fine strands which will corrode quicker. Some of it is not resistant to diesel fuel. Diesel can literally melt the insulation away. I assume you will not have any diesel on your boat, but still. 

Matt Foley 

Sunlight Conversions

Perpetual Energy, LLC

201-914-0466

sunlightconversions.com

instagram.com/sunlightconversions/

youtube/sunlightconversions

On Wednesday, May 3, 2023 at 01:19:42 PM EDT, Myles Twete <matwete@comcast.net> wrote:

First of all, you can certainly split up a pack into multiple boxes---this has been done since the first EVs were produced back in the late 1800's.  I have no comment about aluminum except to be sure that's what you really want (vs, say, wood/glass/epoxy molded to the hull).  With my 700ah, nom. 42v pack on www.evalbum.com/492 , I have my pack split into 4 subpacks, each of the same nom. 42v (31v to 49v Lithium Ion).  Same story with Dan Pence's "Ginger" (one of the first noted E-boat conversions in recent decades and 3^rd earliest or so at evalbum.com --- Dan uses the same battery modules as I use and has a row of batteries on the starboard and one on the port side.  He has his mounted in a ply/glass/epoxy cavity originally built and sized for lead-acid batteries back in the late 1990's---the cavities fit these ex-THINK EV Enerdel stacks well.  He and I both use 4ga wire from each 35ah stack thru fuses to common points on each side.  Then larger gauge cable to connect the starboard and port packs.

 

Details matter.  You indicate your pack will be 280ah at 48v and that the cells themselves are 280ah.  Given that, your splitting of the pack results in two 280ah 24v packs in series.  Size your cables based on how much current you ever expect to draw from the pack.  Let's say max. 7.5kw, then we're talking about 150amps max.  So sure, a gauge of 1, 1/0 or 0 probably would be fine.  Make sure you have a fuse near each of your 2 half-packs.

 

As for BMS connections, it's not really as simple as presented by Dave.  Yes, the cell connection wires are "sense" wires but they typically are also "bypass" wires---that is, they need to pass the current that your BMS card attempts to bypass cells with.  And even 100ma of bypass current thru a tiny, long wire can cause millivolts of voltage drop which ruins the ability of the BMS to properly sense the voltage.  On an electric lift truck application I worked on, we found that 22 ga wires were inadvertently used instead of what we spec'd which was 20ga.  This difference caused cell balancing to be pretty ineffective.  Separate these functions (bypass and sense) and this problem goes away, however most of the BMS boards used until recently do not separate these.  Maybe yours does?

 

Here details really matter. Cell balancing for our under 10kw boating applications should not require more than 1-2 amps of cell bypass current.  On my boat, I have 20 remote BMS cards.  Each has the capability of bypassing up to 12 series cell pairs at about 100ma of current from a 35ah pair of cells.  This results in about a 10mv/hour balance rate, which is plenty if your cells are not all out of whack and not daily charging and discharging the pack deeply for weeks at a time.  Here use-case is important.

 

Your 250a Daly BMS makes me scratch my head---and the website for Daly doesn't help me understand it any better.  Do you have better information on these?  Why on earth do they need to handle 250amps?

 

Thanks.

 

-MT (26' The Reach Of Tide --- converted to electric in 2003)

 

From: electricboats@groups.io [mailto:electricboats@groups.io] On Behalf Of aasmith970@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 3, 2023 2:54 AM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: [electricboats] Splitting 48V System Into Two Boxes?

 

I have a question about the feasibility of splitting up my 280 amp hour 48 V system into two aluminum battery boxes, that I will be custom making making. I am constrained on the space in my Newport 28 sailboat and it would be much easier and balance the way much better if I split the bank.. 

I am concerned, or the question is will the leads being longer from one system to the next, and the BMS leads being different links affect the current/reading of the BMS?? The leads going between the two boxes would be made out of double00 welding cable with properly crimped terminals while the leads going between the individual cells in the boxes will be copper busbars. 

Should all the BMS leads be the exact same length or can eight of them be 2 to 3 times as long as the other eight the boxes will be about 30 inches apart?

280ah new cells from Docan
250 amp BMS Daly
Delta Q charger + 150 watts solar
7.5 KW system from Foshan Green Motor 

thanks for any and all comments. 

Aaron 

Re: [electricboats] Newbie - 20+ foot boat for wide/long river in Guyana, South America

For a reference point, hull speed for a 30 foot boat is about 9mph ->so over 3 hours for the trip.  At hull speed a very conventional electric boat could have the range at a very reasonable price.  It could go much faster, but battery cost for range would go up exponentially.  The trip could be far more pleasant, quiet, autonomous, and air conditioned.

Greater weight linearly increases the power and energy required.  Consider speed greater than hull speed to increase cost exponentially.

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Re: [electricboats] Newbie - 20+ foot boat for wide/long river in Guyana, South America

Raj, 

Besides William Atkin, I suggest you look at the designs of Phil Bolger. In some ways they are kindred spirits, a generation or so apart. Both were very practical designers. 

Some people disparage "Bolger boxes." But remember he designed "HMS" Rose, aka HMS Surprise in "Master and Commander."

/

Greg DeCowsky ☠ 

Sent from my AyePhone® 

On May 16, 2023, at 21:12, rragbeer@wgsinet.com wrote:

Hi Reuben

I have not yet finalized on a boat size.  The more information I collect, especially from the responses I have had so far, I am more I am inclined to consider a vessel which I can use for living quarters if I would like to overnight on the river instead of back in the villa.

The outboard vessels which are around today in the river can do the 30 miles in about 55 min.  I do not mind going slower but more than 2 hours to do the trip may not the suitable.  Your two 10kW motors cruising for 5 hours at 5 knots would do the trip in just over 5 hours.  Am I calculating this correctly?

Budget - I truly do not know. In my thinking, 50 to 70 k was the figure but this may not be realistic and I have this number simply based on pure guesswork.

I do have the full solar set up for the villa and will likely be expanding the system so I will have access to solar power for charging.

I am inclined to go electric  because we are likely at a point where the advances in electric will be so much in the next year or 2 that my investment in a gas outboard motor may be not the best bang for the buck.  I am still 50/50 on this due to speed and possibly cost.

Appreciate the response.

Raj

-----Original Message-----
From: electricboats@groups.io <electricboats@groups.io> On Behalf Of Reuben Trane via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 6:52 PM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] Newbie - 20+ foot boat for wide/long river in Guyana, South America

I'm an advocate for electric propulsion. Before being able to offer any suggestions, one needs a bit more info.

1. How big a boat are you considering?
2. What speed do you want to go and for how long?
3. Budget?
4. Excess solar power for charging?

Most likely the battery will be the most expensive component. You can build your own using cells from Winston or other manufacturer - no more difficult than doing model trains as a youth.

The major outboard manufacturers are just beginning to offer electric outboards. Torqeedo has a variety of products - both outboard and inboard.

It's easier to go slow - but speed can be done with modest distances/operating time.

As an example, my 12m cruising cat has a 1,000AH/48v LFP battery using Winston cells and weighs close to 1,500#. My two 10kW motors can cruise for 5 hours at 5 knots.

Best wishes,

Reuben Trane
Mobile: 786.303.1013

Re: [electricboats] Newbie - 20+ foot boat for wide/long river in Guyana, South America

Hi Reuben

I have not yet finalized on a boat size. The more information I collect, especially from the responses I have had so far, I am more I am inclined to consider a vessel which I can use for living quarters if I would like to overnight on the river instead of back in the villa.

The outboard vessels which are around today in the river can do the 30 miles in about 55 min. I do not mind going slower but more than 2 hours to do the trip may not the suitable. Your two 10kW motors cruising for 5 hours at 5 knots would do the trip in just over 5 hours. Am I calculating this correctly?

Budget - I truly do not know. In my thinking, 50 to 70 k was the figure but this may not be realistic and I have this number simply based on pure guesswork.

I do have the full solar set up for the villa and will likely be expanding the system so I will have access to solar power for charging.

I am inclined to go electric because we are likely at a point where the advances in electric will be so much in the next year or 2 that my investment in a gas outboard motor may be not the best bang for the buck. I am still 50/50 on this due to speed and possibly cost.

Appreciate the response.

Raj

-----Original Message-----
From: electricboats@groups.io <electricboats@groups.io> On Behalf Of Reuben Trane via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 6:52 PM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] Newbie - 20+ foot boat for wide/long river in Guyana, South America

I'm an advocate for electric propulsion. Before being able to offer any suggestions, one needs a bit more info.

1. How big a boat are you considering?
2. What speed do you want to go and for how long?
3. Budget?
4. Excess solar power for charging?

Most likely the battery will be the most expensive component. You can build your own using cells from Winston or other manufacturer - no more difficult than doing model trains as a youth.

The major outboard manufacturers are just beginning to offer electric outboards. Torqeedo has a variety of products - both outboard and inboard.

It's easier to go slow - but speed can be done with modest distances/operating time.

As an example, my 12m cruising cat has a 1,000AH/48v LFP battery using Winston cells and weighs close to 1,500#. My two 10kW motors can cruise for 5 hours at 5 knots.

Best wishes,

Reuben Trane
Mobile: 786.303.1013







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Re: [electricboats] Newbie - 20+ foot boat for wide/long river in Guyana, South America

I'm an advocate for electric propulsion. Before being able to offer any suggestions, one needs a bit more info.

1. How big a boat are you considering?
2. What speed do you want to go and for how long?
3. Budget?
4. Excess solar power for charging?

Most likely the battery will be the most expensive component. You can build your own using cells from Winston or other manufacturer - no more difficult than doing model trains as a youth.

The major outboard manufacturers are just beginning to offer electric outboards. Torqeedo has a variety of products - both outboard and inboard.

It's easier to go slow - but speed can be done with modest distances/operating time.

As an example, my 12m cruising cat has a 1,000AH/48v LFP battery using Winston cells and weighs close to 1,500#. My two 10kW motors can cruise for 5 hours at 5 knots.

Best wishes,

Reuben Trane
Mobile: 786.303.1013

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Re: [electricboats] Newbie - 20+ foot boat for wide/long river in Guyana, South America

Raj,
There was an article in Professional Boat Builder about someone who created an
electric catamaran for service similar to your short trips. It was highlighted
on the cover.

https://www.woodenboatstore.com/products/professional-boatbuilder-194-december-january-2021-2022

The current issue has an article about an electric power cat.

https://www.proboat.com/

Enjoy!

-Terry

On 5/14/23 10:00 AM, rragbeer@wgsinet.com wrote:
> Hello
>
> I have recently joined the forum and have been following the topics with great
> interest.  Within the next few months, I would like to purchase a boat (new or
> used) for use in a fairly large river with the average trip being 30 miles and
> other shorter trips.  I have looked at the boats in use now, and generally they
> are all 20 to 30 foot length with outboard engines - 75 hp to 200 hp.  It takes
> about 50 min to travel the 30 miles depending on how rough the waters are, and
> while there is not much traffic, there are some vessels which have 2 200HP
> engines and makes quite a big wake.  The gas is about $120 USD.  I expect to use
> the boat twice per week for the 30 mile trip and twice a week for shorter trips
> and this is likely the maximum use; it may be less, not more.
>
> Gas is likely to continue to increase in price.  I will be operating in a
> completely off-grid environment with full solar capability for the villa - PV
> panels, charge controller, battery bank, inverter, backup generator.  We get sun
> pretty much all day.  Everything including groceries and gas is a 10 min boat
> ride away.  No roads.
>
> I am considering electric engines and have begun to ramping up my knowledge.
> Since I am starting completely from new, I figured this may be an advantage but
> perhaps not.  A few very broad questions and any guidance, input, feedback,
> cautions would be most welcome:
> 1. Should I go electric?
> 2. Is there a specific boat design for use with electric engines and river travel.
> 3. Budget - No idea. What can I get for 30k, 50k, 70k?
>
> Thanks kindly for any input
> Raj
>


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Re: [electricboats] Newbie - 20+ foot boat for wide/long river in Guyana, South America

I will be carrying about 8 persons max plus likely one piece luggage each.  The typical load will be 2 to 3 persons.

 

The boat does not have to be big, heavy and fast.  I do have a 23 foot run-about for the faster trips if needed and would like to use this as least amount of time possible.

 

A lower speed with a longer stabilized tri hull sounds pretty good.  From what I can gather by your post, this will allow for greater fuel efficiency.  This would also allow me to design this as a boathouse as well for sleeping and living quarters if desired.   If I go this route, given the expected fuel efficiency, does battery still make sense?  Or perhaps a hybrid of electric and gas?

 

I currently have eight 6v Rolls batteries for the villa so likely will not require use of the batteries from the boat although it's a great backup which I hadn't considered before.

 

Thanks

 

From: electricboats@groups.io <electricboats@groups.io> On Behalf Of navkram@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2023 1:14 PM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] Newbie - 20+ foot boat for wide/long river in Guyana, South America

 

From what you describe, electric is economically viable, but marginal depending on what you value. My reasoning is that your fuel bill is ~$1000/mo and that would support roughly $70k of investment @12%.

How much do you have to carry, and do you have to go over 32 mph for an hour?  75 hp for an hour would take about a 60kwh battery.  
That is heavy and costly enough to be questionable.
If you consider
-a lower speed
-a lighter more efficient boat -long stabilized mono (tri) operating at a lower multiple of hull speed or a foil assisted cat (lighter, higher speed)
you could dramatically reduce your power needs and cost. 

The kicker is that those big batteries could be very useful to your off-grid villa when not powering the boat.

If this boat must be big, heavy, fast, and conventional deep V, electric may be cost prohibitive.

Re: [electricboats] Newbie - 20+ foot boat for wide/long river in Guyana, South America

Thank you Greg.  This is a great link and does open up new ideas and a different approach.  I'll investigate further.

 

Raj

 

From: electricboats@groups.io <electricboats@groups.io> On Behalf Of Greg DeCowsky via groups.io
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2023 10:48 AM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] Newbie - 20+ foot boat for wide/long river in Guyana, South America

 

William Atkin designed a couple of paddlewheel riverboats. Lady of the Lake is one that comes to mind. Designed for a 10 hp diesel IIRC. I think it's perfectly suitable for an electric motor. 

 

He has passed away, but Mystic Seaport can supply plans:

 

Atkin & Co. - Boat Plans atkin.mysticseaport.org

 

/

Greg DeCowsky ☠ 

Sent from my AyePhone® 

On May 15, 2023, at 09:54, rragbeer@wgsinet.com wrote:

Hello 

I have recently joined the forum and have been following the topics with great interest.  Within the next few months, I would like to purchase a boat (new or used) for use in a fairly large river with the average trip being 30 miles and other shorter trips.  I have looked at the boats in use now, and generally they are all 20 to 30 foot length with outboard engines - 75 hp to 200 hp.  It takes about 50 min to travel the 30 miles depending on how rough the waters are, and while there is not much traffic, there are some vessels which have 2 200HP engines and makes quite a big wake.  The gas is about $120 USD.  I expect to use the boat twice per week for the 30 mile trip and twice a week for shorter trips and this is likely the maximum use; it may be less, not more.

Gas is likely to continue to increase in price.  I will be operating in a completely off-grid environment with full solar capability for the villa - PV panels, charge controller, battery bank, inverter, backup generator.  We get sun pretty much all day.  Everything including groceries and gas is a 10 min boat ride away.  No roads.

I am considering electric engines and have begun to ramping up my knowledge.  Since I am starting completely from new, I figured this may be an advantage but perhaps not.  A few very broad questions and any guidance, input, feedback, cautions would be most welcome:
1. Should I go electric?    
2. Is there a specific boat design for use with electric engines and river travel.  
3. Budget - No idea. What can I get for 30k, 50k, 70k?

Thanks kindly for any input
Raj

Re: [electricboats] Newbie - 20+ foot boat for wide/long river in Guyana, South America

From what you describe, electric is economically viable, but marginal depending on what you value. My reasoning is that your fuel bill is ~$1000/mo and that would support roughly $70k of investment @12%.

How much do you have to carry, and do you have to go over 32 mph for an hour?  75 hp for an hour would take about a 60kwh battery.  
That is heavy and costly enough to be questionable.
If you consider
-a lower speed
-a lighter more efficient boat -long stabilized mono (tri) operating at a lower multiple of hull speed or a foil assisted cat (lighter, higher speed)
you could dramatically reduce your power needs and cost. 

The kicker is that those big batteries could be very useful to your off-grid villa when not powering the boat.

If this boat must be big, heavy, fast, and conventional deep V, electric may be cost prohibitive.

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Re: [electricboats] Newbie - 20+ foot boat for wide/long river in Guyana, South America

William Atkin designed a couple of paddlewheel riverboats. Lady of the Lake is one that comes to mind. Designed for a 10 hp diesel IIRC. I think it's perfectly suitable for an electric motor. 

He has passed away, but Mystic Seaport can supply plans:

Atkin & Co. - Boat Plans atkin.mysticseaport.org

/

Greg DeCowsky ☠ 

Sent from my AyePhone® 

On May 15, 2023, at 09:54, rragbeer@wgsinet.com wrote:

Hello 

I have recently joined the forum and have been following the topics with great interest.  Within the next few months, I would like to purchase a boat (new or used) for use in a fairly large river with the average trip being 30 miles and other shorter trips.  I have looked at the boats in use now, and generally they are all 20 to 30 foot length with outboard engines - 75 hp to 200 hp.  It takes about 50 min to travel the 30 miles depending on how rough the waters are, and while there is not much traffic, there are some vessels which have 2 200HP engines and makes quite a big wake.  The gas is about $120 USD.  I expect to use the boat twice per week for the 30 mile trip and twice a week for shorter trips and this is likely the maximum use; it may be less, not more.

Gas is likely to continue to increase in price.  I will be operating in a completely off-grid environment with full solar capability for the villa - PV panels, charge controller, battery bank, inverter, backup generator.  We get sun pretty much all day.  Everything including groceries and gas is a 10 min boat ride away.  No roads.

I am considering electric engines and have begun to ramping up my knowledge.  Since I am starting completely from new, I figured this may be an advantage but perhaps not.  A few very broad questions and any guidance, input, feedback, cautions would be most welcome:
1. Should I go electric?    
2. Is there a specific boat design for use with electric engines and river travel.  
3. Budget - No idea. What can I get for 30k, 50k, 70k?

Thanks kindly for any input
Raj

Re: [electricboats] Thunderstruck 10kw sailboat kit battery stuck

You didn't mention what state of charge meter you are using or where you are measuring it. Most will operate on a loosely tracking voltage to capacity curve and most have a calibration procedure to tell them what voltage is 100%.


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Re: [electricboats] Thunderstruck 10kw sailboat kit battery stuck

Interesting thank you Brian!  I have a 4x12 lead acid batteries.  I don't think they ever give me more than 55 even when fully charged.  

Maybe I need to turn in the controller with charger on.  Charger gives me ~58v

On Mon, May 15, 2023 at 9:18 AM Brian <mainfuse@gmail.com> wrote:

Most of these state of charge meters need a voltage threshold to reset to 100%. On my boat this seems to be about 58 volts. The problem I have is the controller needs to see this voltage, I have to turn on the controller soon after my pack is fully charged for it to reset, if I wait too long my battery voltage drops a bit and it does not reset.

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Best Regards,

Anton Slutsky, Ph.D.

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Re: [electricboats] Thunderstruck 10kw sailboat kit battery stuck

Most of these state of charge meters need a voltage threshold to reset to 100%. On my boat this seems to be about 58 volts. The problem I have is the controller needs to see this voltage, I have to turn on the controller soon after my pack is fully charged for it to reset, if I wait too long my battery voltage drops a bit and it does not reset.

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Re: [electricboats] Thunderstruck 10kw sailboat kit battery stuck

Antonio,

Call Thunderstruck. They actually talk to their customers and are great folks.

Cheers,

Ric

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[electricboats] Thunderstruck 10kw sailboat kit battery stuck

Hello,

Last year I got the Thunderstruck sailboat 10kw conversion kit with it worked great!

https://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/10kw-brushless-sailboat-kit-sevcon.html

One problem — the battery charge indicator seem to not want to reset.  I know for sure my batteries are fully charged but the indicator showing seemingly the last value it had when we last went out last season (currently showing 80% which is what we ended the last sail on).

Would anyone know if I need to reset it someone after every trip?

TIA!

Anton

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Best Regards,

Anton Slutsky, Ph.D.

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[electricboats] Newbie - 20+ foot boat for wide/long river in Guyana, South America

Hello 

I have recently joined the forum and have been following the topics with great interest.  Within the next few months, I would like to purchase a boat (new or used) for use in a fairly large river with the average trip being 30 miles and other shorter trips.  I have looked at the boats in use now, and generally they are all 20 to 30 foot length with outboard engines - 75 hp to 200 hp.  It takes about 50 min to travel the 30 miles depending on how rough the waters are, and while there is not much traffic, there are some vessels which have 2 200HP engines and makes quite a big wake.  The gas is about $120 USD.  I expect to use the boat twice per week for the 30 mile trip and twice a week for shorter trips and this is likely the maximum use; it may be less, not more.

Gas is likely to continue to increase in price.  I will be operating in a completely off-grid environment with full solar capability for the villa - PV panels, charge controller, battery bank, inverter, backup generator.  We get sun pretty much all day.  Everything including groceries and gas is a 10 min boat ride away.  No roads.

I am considering electric engines and have begun to ramping up my knowledge.  Since I am starting completely from new, I figured this may be an advantage but perhaps not.  A few very broad questions and any guidance, input, feedback, cautions would be most welcome:
1. Should I go electric?    
2. Is there a specific boat design for use with electric engines and river travel.  
3. Budget - No idea. What can I get for 30k, 50k, 70k?

Thanks kindly for any input
Raj

_._,_._,_

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Re: [electricboats] EV Gavia: Electrical suggestions

Hey Myles,

Your 330wh/mi is *amazing* and approaching efficient electric car territory!

Hull: Yep, a tunnel stern and the hull design is from William Atkin from the boat "Little Water" designed in 1947 (with changes to bow and stern line and cabin) and the cabin, layout was based on Dave Gerr and his boat "Escapade"

Prop: 3 bladed 16 inch prop, 22 teeth on the motor gear and 56 teeth on the shaft gear, Thoosa motor runs at 60 rpm per volt, so 2880 rpm at 48 volts.

Some measurements we took (the speed measurements were not precise unfortunately):

  500W = 2 knots

1000W = 4 knots

1500W = 4 knots 

5000W = 5 knots

6000W = 6 knots

More testing needed!

Cheers,

Jay

On Thu, May 11, 2023 at 1:50 PM Myles Twete <matwete@comcast.net> wrote:

Thanks Jay.  I'm sure I missed it, but can you comment on:

·       Prop size/type

·       Tunnel counter-stern design---looks super cool

·       What speed was this data taken at?

 

My 26' boat www.evalbum.com/492

With a pack that has a capacity just under 30kwh, I get pretty decent range.

But it all depends on average speed.

The boat can do 7knots, but that's at about 10kw with a motor rated for just 8HP (6kw) continuous.

At 6kts, the motor draws about 5kw and so at most 6hours of cruising or 36n-mi and 750wh/mi.

At 5kts, power drops by half (2.5kw) and so at most 12hrs or 60n-mi and just under 500wh/mi.

At 4kts, about 1.3kw is used and range could go up to 92n-mi or over 100miles or about 330wh/mi.

 

Speed greatly effects power and range attainable.

 

Love the boat!

 

-Myles Twete

26' Reach Of Tide, converted to electric in 2003

 

From: electricboats@groups.io [mailto:electricboats@groups.io] On Behalf Of Jay Johnston
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2023 6:33 AM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] EV Gavia: Electrical suggestions

 

Thanks to all of you that provided suggestions on this (now old) thread.

We have tested the boat in the water and have promising results

 

Short video showing the test

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XI3Lii3qTo

 

Distance traveled: 12.05 km / 7.48 miles
Battery used: 2.1kWh to go 7.48 miles (!)
So that is (maybe): 3.56 miles per kWh
With the full battery, that comes to 15.2 kWh * 3.56 miles = 54.1 miles on a full charge!

 

I think this is very optimistic, and the accurate distance might be 20% lower, maybe.

 

Changes we implemented since previous email was sent to this alias:

• We are using a 12V bank (two battleborn's in parallel) in the forepeak to handle the heavy loads (bowthruster) and 12V house loads, vs DC/DC converter
• We charge the 12V bank using an AC->DC charger, powered by the Multiplus II on AC (yes, its not efficient but this maintains DC isolation between the 48V and 12V systems. We had trouble finding an isolated 48V to 12V charger)

No solar yet, really hoping the right semi-flexible panels at the right size will be available

 

 

On Fri, Jun 18, 2021 at 8:05 PM Reuben Trane via groups.io <rjtrane=me.com@groups.io> wrote:

I had it working till it caught fire. Quickly put out but the range extender was toast. Yanked it out of the boat. 

 

It would have been fine if I'd 1) installed outside the boat & 2) tighten the oil drain plugs prior to running. 

 

During early tests it put out about 3,500 watts max. These units are advertised as having higher output in watts but only at the higher voltages. They ate amp limited. 

 

If you have a good outside place to mount I'd recommend purchasing a 4kW DELLENT from Tom's Machinery - AliExpress. They replaced broken items. These smaller units come pre-wired with internal electronics. They use the generator as the starter. 

On Jun 18, 2021, at 8:03 AM, aasmith970@gmail.com wrote:



Reuben,

I am interested to know more about your range extender and how it's working.

I have a Newport 28 6000# displacement monohull and have re-powered with a 48 volt 7.5kw air-cooled 3 ph AC motor and what appears to be a fake Savcon controller meant for a large "tour" vehicle. I purchased the Chinese system unused from someone who was going to convert but never finished. I have limited range because of the AGM batteries that came with the set up but 350.00 all in I'm very lucky to have it all running for the second season now. I will be building a Lipo pack out of CALB cells soon, but I would like to have a back up. I rented a small 2000 watt Honda and tried some motoring with it and it seemed to work but is less than ideal and quite stinky to have in the cockpit.

I saw your post and thought that might be perfect for my situation. How does it work? Have you needed it?

Thanks for any input!
Aaron

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Re: [electricboats] EV Gavia: Electrical suggestions

Thanks Jay.  I'm sure I missed it, but can you comment on:

·       Prop size/type

·       Tunnel counter-stern design---looks super cool

·       What speed was this data taken at?

 

My 26' boat www.evalbum.com/492

With a pack that has a capacity just under 30kwh, I get pretty decent range.

But it all depends on average speed.

The boat can do 7knots, but that's at about 10kw with a motor rated for just 8HP (6kw) continuous.

At 6kts, the motor draws about 5kw and so at most 6hours of cruising or 36n-mi and 750wh/mi.

At 5kts, power drops by half (2.5kw) and so at most 12hrs or 60n-mi and just under 500wh/mi.

At 4kts, about 1.3kw is used and range could go up to 92n-mi or over 100miles or about 330wh/mi.

 

Speed greatly effects power and range attainable.

 

Love the boat!

 

-Myles Twete

26' Reach Of Tide, converted to electric in 2003

 

From: electricboats@groups.io [mailto:electricboats@groups.io] On Behalf Of Jay Johnston
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2023 6:33 AM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] EV Gavia: Electrical suggestions

 

Thanks to all of you that provided suggestions on this (now old) thread.

We have tested the boat in the water and have promising results

 

Short video showing the test

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XI3Lii3qTo

 

Distance traveled: 12.05 km / 7.48 miles
Battery used: 2.1kWh to go 7.48 miles (!)
So that is (maybe): 3.56 miles per kWh
With the full battery, that comes to 15.2 kWh * 3.56 miles = 54.1 miles on a full charge!

 

I think this is very optimistic, and the accurate distance might be 20% lower, maybe.

 

Changes we implemented since previous email was sent to this alias:

• We are using a 12V bank (two battleborn's in parallel) in the forepeak to handle the heavy loads (bowthruster) and 12V house loads, vs DC/DC converter
• We charge the 12V bank using an AC->DC charger, powered by the Multiplus II on AC (yes, its not efficient but this maintains DC isolation between the 48V and 12V systems. We had trouble finding an isolated 48V to 12V charger)

No solar yet, really hoping the right semi-flexible panels at the right size will be available

 

 

On Fri, Jun 18, 2021 at 8:05 PM Reuben Trane via groups.io <rjtrane=me.com@groups.io> wrote:

I had it working till it caught fire. Quickly put out but the range extender was toast. Yanked it out of the boat. 

 

It would have been fine if I'd 1) installed outside the boat & 2) tighten the oil drain plugs prior to running. 

 

During early tests it put out about 3,500 watts max. These units are advertised as having higher output in watts but only at the higher voltages. They ate amp limited. 

 

If you have a good outside place to mount I'd recommend purchasing a 4kW DELLENT from Tom's Machinery - AliExpress. They replaced broken items. These smaller units come pre-wired with internal electronics. They use the generator as the starter. 

On Jun 18, 2021, at 8:03 AM, aasmith970@gmail.com wrote:



Reuben,

I am interested to know more about your range extender and how it's working.

I have a Newport 28 6000# displacement monohull and have re-powered with a 48 volt 7.5kw air-cooled 3 ph AC motor and what appears to be a fake Savcon controller meant for a large "tour" vehicle. I purchased the Chinese system unused from someone who was going to convert but never finished. I have limited range because of the AGM batteries that came with the set up but 350.00 all in I'm very lucky to have it all running for the second season now. I will be building a Lipo pack out of CALB cells soon, but I would like to have a back up. I rented a small 2000 watt Honda and tried some motoring with it and it seemed to work but is less than ideal and quite stinky to have in the cockpit.

I saw your post and thought that might be perfect for my situation. How does it work? Have you needed it?

Thanks for any input!
Aaron

Re: [electricboats] EV Gavia: Electrical suggestions

Thanks to all of you that provided suggestions on this (now old) thread.

We have tested the boat in the water and have promising results

Short video showing the test

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XI3Lii3qTo

Distance traveled: 12.05 km / 7.48 miles
Battery used: 2.1kWh to go 7.48 miles (!)
So that is (maybe): 3.56 miles per kWh
With the full battery, that comes to 15.2 kWh * 3.56 miles = 54.1 miles on a full charge!

I think this is very optimistic, and the accurate distance might be 20% lower, maybe.

Changes we implemented since previous email was sent to this alias:

• We are using a 12V bank (two battleborn's in parallel) in the forepeak to handle the heavy loads (bowthruster) and 12V house loads, vs DC/DC converter
• We charge the 12V bank using an AC->DC charger, powered by the Multiplus II on AC (yes, its not efficient but this maintains DC isolation between the 48V and 12V systems. We had trouble finding an isolated 48V to 12V charger)

No solar yet, really hoping the right semi-flexible panels at the right size will be available

On Fri, Jun 18, 2021 at 8:05 PM Reuben Trane via groups.io <rjtrane=me.com@groups.io> wrote:

I had it working till it caught fire. Quickly put out but the range extender was toast. Yanked it out of the boat. 

It would have been fine if I'd 1) installed outside the boat & 2) tighten the oil drain plugs prior to running. 

During early tests it put out about 3,500 watts max. These units are advertised as having higher output in watts but only at the higher voltages. They ate amp limited. 

If you have a good outside place to mount I'd recommend purchasing a 4kW DELLENT from Tom's Machinery - AliExpress. They replaced broken items. These smaller units come pre-wired with internal electronics. They use the generator as the starter. 

On Jun 18, 2021, at 8:03 AM, aasmith970@gmail.com wrote:



Reuben,

I am interested to know more about your range extender and how it's working.

I have a Newport 28 6000# displacement monohull and have re-powered with a 48 volt 7.5kw air-cooled 3 ph AC motor and what appears to be a fake Savcon controller meant for a large "tour" vehicle. I purchased the Chinese system unused from someone who was going to convert but never finished. I have limited range because of the AGM batteries that came with the set up but 350.00 all in I'm very lucky to have it all running for the second season now. I will be building a Lipo pack out of CALB cells soon, but I would like to have a back up. I rented a small 2000 watt Honda and tried some motoring with it and it seemed to work but is less than ideal and quite stinky to have in the cockpit.

I saw your post and thought that might be perfect for my situation. How does it work? Have you needed it?

Thanks for any input!
Aaron

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