Friday, September 30, 2011

[Electric Boats] New guy with a touring/camper mod.

 

Hello

I'm Mark, the new guy from up in North Scituate, Rhode Island.

To quickly cover the personal background stuff:
I studied Fine Art in college, (sculpture and photography). I never made a dime off it but it's managed to stay a big part of my life.
I've been a carpenter for close to 40 years, doing mostly finish work now.
I have some experience in electronics at the component level. I'm okay with "point-to-points" but I'd be in trouble if I had to read a schematic.
Divorced, no kids, 1 dog and like everybody else in the construction trades ...unemployed.

I'd been thinking about building a houseboat for a few years now, one that would run without fossil fuels and be essentially "off-the-grid".
I hope to spend time touring the inland waterways in the US someday.
I wanted to start on a prototype and did some drawings but I didn't have the space to start fabricating hulls.

The original idea is here:

http://solarboat.blogspot.com/

There's a link to some drawings at the top of the right hand column, you should skip the text unless you've got insomnia issues.

I grew up around boats, both power and sail, but this being "The Ocean State" I never had any experience with pontoon barges as they really aren't well suited for salt water.
I got a close look at one for the first time a year ago and it got the wheels turning.

I found a 20 foot 1989 Manitou Fish Hawk on Craigslist. The motor was blown and the furniture was toast but the pontoons and the trailer were in great shape and the price was right. I stripped it down to the trusses, replaced the deck with mahogany, added an 8' x 12' canopy for a PV array and wells large enough to hold 8 deep cycle RV/marine batteries. The plan is to turn it into a touring boat and a camper. There will be roll-down canvas panels around the canopy and the benches will turn into bunks.

I haven't figured out how to transfer the files from my Flickr account to here yet, so for now...
These are some shots of the early construction stages:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/68066846@N04/sets/72157627783354944/

This is it with some of the wiring installed:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/68066846@N04/sets/72157627790086652/

The construction is going well over all There's only a couple of days work left before I can get it wet.
I did put in the water once to check the buoyancy and balance but I haven't run it under power yet.

I need to get started on the charging systems now. With 96 square feet of canopy, I've got room for a fair size PV array. but I don't see it providing enough power. I had planned on adding vertical axis wind turbines, but all the designs I came up with ate up too much deck space.
I may try and put them on outriggers if I can find a way to keep them from getting wrecked dock-side or crushed going thru locks.

I've been looking into getting some power regeneration from the motors. Technically all I'd need to do would be to anchor in a strong current but I'd need a different set of props to get any real power generation and swapping out the props every night and then back in the morning sounds like a chore.

Feel free to hit me up with questions, suggestions or pointers. I've got a LOT of free time these days.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Mark

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[Electric Boats] Re: down by you Eric

 

Hi Kirk,

If you look at the PDF document properties, this actricle was published in 1999. Looking at the drawings, it appears to be the same alternator that Polar has been putting on their DC generators for more than a decade.
http://www.polarpowerinc.com/products/generators/3-8kw_Lom-1003.htm
If you look at their merine offerings, they're using the 6250 alternator on almost all of them. They appear to be very good marine DC generators, and they come in 48V.

I looked at PolarPower diesel marine generators when I first started analyzing my conversion, but even the smallest was about the same size and weight of the Yanmar SVE12 that I was taking out of the boat. I would still have to retain a fuel tank, cooling water and exhaust system. If I went that route, the additional electric drive and batteries will would be bringing my boat's weight up and decreasing her sailing performance. So for me, it didn't make any sense. I would have been better off installing a new Beta diesel and calling it done.

But if I had a boat that was large enough to carry the extra weight and size of permanently installed marine genset, I would seriously look at the PolarPower offerings, I haven't seen any other alternatives that looks better.

Fair winds,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Kirk McLoren <kirkmcloren@...> wrote:
>
> http://polarpowerinc.com/products/pdf/6200_alternator.pdf
>  
> Is this worth getting excited about?
> -Kirk
>

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[Electric Boats] Re: Anyone with experience re this inline thruster

 


The Voith company has built traction systems for the tugboat industry for a long time. The systems are remarkable in their ability to place power within 360 degree. I have been on tugs and have gone from full power forward to reverse and to the side and it defies what I have seen on any other boat.
The inline thruster seems to be another innovative product from a well respected company. The engineering seems to be first rate and the manufacturing displayed in their past products is first class. I would not consider any product from them to be anything but commercial and viable.
Mike Electric Yachts So Cal

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Mark Lockley <lockleymark1@...> wrote:
>
> Found this item on the internet but not any real information about do they last or are they just a gimmick still to be field proven.
>  
> http://www.voithturbo.com/vt_en_pua_marine_vct_inline-thruster.htm
>  
> Any ideas anyone ?
>

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[Electric Boats] Re: REGEN SUCCESS!

 



I am curious as to why it is so challenging to achieve good regen rates when towed impeller generators produce such high charge rates. I would think the placement and size of the prop would produce better results than a towed generator. Is it a problem with the controller? Have you tried sailing with the throttle slightly in reverse?

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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: REGEN SUCCESS!

 

Jason:
 
I agree the reality of regen is "don't quit your day job" because most won't be able to recharge much using it in a reasonable amount of time. But, you beer can recycling analogy is very apt.
I'm glad to take any amps that I can to the bank,  battery bank that is. I was already very happy with my electric propulsion system and never counted on regen as part of the charging mix. But, I'm glad it works even with the current old prop. I suspect many who are thinking about conversion may go this route first. When I converted to EP I was not about to spend hundreds of dollars changing the prop to try and achieve it either. But, if I should have to replace the prop at some point you know I will try and optimize it for my EP system. I agree thrust should be the top priority in that regard. Same thing happened with my choice of trying out the Honda 2000 generator rather than go with an installed diesel generator at first to charge the battery bank. Turns out the Honda meets my needs perfectly. That's the beauty of an EP system you can try different things and see what works and change or add on as your needs change. My discovering that my system was capable of regen three years after my install was the result of changing my operating mode to electro sailing most of the time. I like those kinds of surprises! I certainly won't depend on it to recharge the batteries but, I still like to see it happening.
 
Capt. Mike
  
 
 
 
--- On Thu, 9/29/11, Jason Taylor <jt.yahoo@jtaylor.ca> wrote:

From: Jason Taylor <jt.yahoo@jtaylor.ca>
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: REGEN SUCCESS!
To: "electricboats@yahoogroups.com" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: "electricboats@yahoogroups.com" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thursday, September 29, 2011, 10:23 PM

 
I still think the system is best served by optimizing for thrust not regen since in no way is sail-derived electricity going to contribute significant energy back to the storage bank. To those who then say "but on long passages it will make a difference" I respond that on a long passage, the efficiency gained by optimizing for regen is inconsequential. Using some numbers that I seem to recall being bandied about this forum, you are looking at a ~20% improvement on a 40:1 (regen hours to motoring hours) ratio. So if we assume a 1-hour motor down a channel to open water, you are still looking at 32-40 hours of sailing (at 5kts plus)  to recoup that hour. 
The best way to look at regen is as like a deposit on beer cans, not as part of your base salary that you use for budgeting. If you do that, you will only ever be disappointed. 

That said, what's good for electric propulsion is also good for regen: low rpms, large diameter props and aggressive pitch. I am sure that anyone fitting a new prop ideally suited to their new e-propulsion package will see better regen numbers than they would with their old prop that was matched to their ICE. The efficiency gained in propulsion will probably take out fewer electrons than the benefit to regen will put back, but the system gains either way. 

I'll stop now since iPhone typing is a PITA, and I think I made my point. 

/Jason


On Sep 29, 2011, at 16:58, Michael Mccomb <mccomb.michael@yahoo.com> wrote:

 
I can believe the facts as given because I have a theory to support them. 

I have been told that one cannot maximize a propeller for both thrust and regeneration at the same time and that both the pitch and the diameter would be different for a prop meant only to provide regeneration. 

The props that you guys are using are precisely the opposite in that they are props optimized only for thrust.  Is it possible that the (un-optimized for regen) props must be "overcome" before any regeneration can occur?  That the reason you must put it in gear and give it a slight bit of what amounts to forward thrust energy is that you are overcoming the resistance of a prop that is not set up for regeneration at all.  Once you have the prop nearly providing thrust or at a thrust neutral speed it then takes only a slight additional push from the wind to get the boat into regen territory?  

Not certain what sort of prop would best be for a regen boat but perhaps it is a prop half way between a thrust optimized and generation optimized model if one would like to shoot for maximum efficiency over all?  Maybe???.... digression, digression, digression... probably need a variable pitch prop...

From: acsarfkram <acsarfkram@yahoo.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 1:55 PM
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: REGEN SUCCESS!

 
Hi Mike,

Thanks for changing the video setting. You wrote; Did the happy dance in cockpit! I think I can hear the happy dance in your voice ;-).

When I first got my SolidNav Explorer the directions for regen (as I recall) where to put the forward/reverse switch in reverse and leave the throttle in the off position or maybe slightly on.

After the unit was installed I got an update on regen procedure and it was to set shifter to forward and apply a small amount of throttle.

In practice feathering the throttle to match prop freewheeling rpm (boat sailing speed) makes a sizable difference.

I have gone out for a two hour sail and returned with .02 volts more than I left with. Pretty minimal motoring, maybe ten minutes but still not too shabby.

Mark
Santa Cruz

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Mike <biankablog@...> wrote:
>
> I finally was able to observe my ASMO MARINE Thoosa 9000 system in regen mode after trying over three years. Strange thing was I was not even trying when I found it working. It was probably available all the time. I had recently started electro sailing instead of just letting the prop spin with the EP system off while under sail. One day when the boat was sailing along at 6 knots I checked the amp meter and noticed it had a  positive amp flow. Did the happy dance in cockpit! You can see the regen in action here on my blog:
>  http://biankablog.blogspot.com/2011/09/another-advantage-of-electric.html
> BTW I'm using the same three bladed prop I used with the diesel . Until I can rig up another meter so I can  observe the regen more easily in the cockpit I'll continue to check on it from time to time Though it's not easy to keep a constant eye on it with current meter location.  I'm still happy to know that it is working.
>  
> Capt. Mike
> http://biankablog.blogspot.com
>  
>  
>



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Re: [Electric Boats] 12-20Kw Motor Best Buy?

 

Don't forget Electric Yacht in MN

On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 6:02 PM, viperpurple <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hey,

I am just converting a very old diesel powered boat into an electric one and have been looking at all the different companies out there who supply the motors. I have listed the ones i've found so far but i am hopeing that someone has had experience with using these motors and so i can get some feedback. I'm after information on the reliability, value for money, performance, speed vs battery drain etc.

I hope you can help, i have put some more detail about my boat below.

Companies so far - Thoosa, Solomon, Lynch, Elco

Boat Details:

Dimensions = 8m x 2.5m and sits in the water by 30cm
Weight = ~4.5 tonnes (with diesel engine etc.)
Hull Speed = 6.8 Knots
Engine power Needed = 12-20Kw as it will need to drive into 20mph winds

If you have more advice or have a question then please get in touch

Regards

Adam




--
No trees were harmed in the creation of this message, though a significant number of electrons may have been inconvenienced.

George Johnson
GeoMar Logistics
Jomtien, Chonburi
Thailand

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Thursday, September 29, 2011

[Electric Boats] Re: New Member Intro

 

Greetings to all -- I'm also a new member of this group.
I'm sailing my Dufour 375GL sailboat in the Sout West Pacific area from New Caledonia and have chosen for my inflatable tender (small size as the crew is 2 people only) a Torqeedo 503S engine.
I'm obviously interested in the technical subjects developped in this group as it seems that this small engine is actually a very sophisticated piece of technology.
Fair winds and nice sea to all,
jcglt - SV BAUHINIA

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[Electric Boats] 47 knots - Wow!

 

Saw a very interesting story on a 23ft yacht tender that claims to have hit 47 knots with an all electric system configured by Regen Nautics.
http://regennautic.com/2011/09/latest-marine-news/
Their video seems to bear out their reported speed...and shows some aggressive skiing to boot.

Sounds like they used a motor by UQM Technologies, which I had never heard of before, to repower an Evinrude OB...and juiced the whole thing with "lithium NMC" batteries from Corvus, another name I had not heard.

I couldn't find mention whether this boat is slated for production or not. Still, I have to tip my hat to them for a unique feat. Would love to know more about the motor they used and the corresponding specs.

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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: REGEN SUCCESS!

 

I still think the system is best served by optimizing for thrust not regen since in no way is sail-derived electricity going to contribute significant energy back to the storage bank. To those who then say "but on long passages it will make a difference" I respond that on a long passage, the efficiency gained by optimizing for regen is inconsequential. Using some numbers that I seem to recall being bandied about this forum, you are looking at a ~20% improvement on a 40:1 (regen hours to motoring hours) ratio. So if we assume a 1-hour motor down a channel to open water, you are still looking at 32-40 hours of sailing (at 5kts plus)  to recoup that hour. 
The best way to look at regen is as like a deposit on beer cans, not as part of your base salary that you use for budgeting. If you do that, you will only ever be disappointed. 

That said, what's good for electric propulsion is also good for regen: low rpms, large diameter props and aggressive pitch. I am sure that anyone fitting a new prop ideally suited to their new e-propulsion package will see better regen numbers than they would with their old prop that was matched to their ICE. The efficiency gained in propulsion will probably take out fewer electrons than the benefit to regen will put back, but the system gains either way. 

I'll stop now since iPhone typing is a PITA, and I think I made my point. 

/Jason


On Sep 29, 2011, at 16:58, Michael Mccomb <mccomb.michael@yahoo.com> wrote:

 

I can believe the facts as given because I have a theory to support them. 

I have been told that one cannot maximize a propeller for both thrust and regeneration at the same time and that both the pitch and the diameter would be different for a prop meant only to provide regeneration. 

The props that you guys are using are precisely the opposite in that they are props optimized only for thrust.  Is it possible that the (un-optimized for regen) props must be "overcome" before any regeneration can occur?  That the reason you must put it in gear and give it a slight bit of what amounts to forward thrust energy is that you are overcoming the resistance of a prop that is not set up for regeneration at all.  Once you have the prop nearly providing thrust or at a thrust neutral speed it then takes only a slight additional push from the wind to get the boat into regen territory?  

Not certain what sort of prop would best be for a regen boat but perhaps it is a prop half way between a thrust optimized and generation optimized model if one would like to shoot for maximum efficiency over all?  Maybe???.... digression, digression, digression... probably need a variable pitch prop...

From: acsarfkram <acsarfkram@yahoo.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 1:55 PM
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: REGEN SUCCESS!

 
Hi Mike,

Thanks for changing the video setting. You wrote; Did the happy dance in cockpit! I think I can hear the happy dance in your voice ;-).

When I first got my SolidNav Explorer the directions for regen (as I recall) where to put the forward/reverse switch in reverse and leave the throttle in the off position or maybe slightly on.

After the unit was installed I got an update on regen procedure and it was to set shifter to forward and apply a small amount of throttle.

In practice feathering the throttle to match prop freewheeling rpm (boat sailing speed) makes a sizable difference.

I have gone out for a two hour sail and returned with .02 volts more than I left with. Pretty minimal motoring, maybe ten minutes but still not too shabby.

Mark
Santa Cruz

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Mike <biankablog@...> wrote:
>
> I finally was able to observe my ASMO MARINE Thoosa 9000 system in regen mode after trying over three years. Strange thing was I was not even trying when I found it working. It was probably available all the time. I had recently started electro sailing instead of just letting the prop spin with the EP system off while under sail. One day when the boat was sailing along at 6 knots I checked the amp meter and noticed it had a  positive amp flow. Did the happy dance in cockpit! You can see the regen in action here on my blog:
>  http://biankablog.blogspot.com/2011/09/another-advantage-of-electric.html
> BTW I'm using the same three bladed prop I used with the diesel . Until I can rig up another meter so I can  observe the regen more easily in the cockpit I'll continue to check on it from time to time Though it's not easy to keep a constant eye on it with current meter location.  I'm still happy to know that it is working.
>  
> Capt. Mike
> http://biankablog.blogspot.com
>  
>  
>



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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: REGEN SUCCESS!

 

I can believe the facts as given because I have a theory to support them. 

I have been told that one cannot maximize a propeller for both thrust and regeneration at the same time and that both the pitch and the diameter would be different for a prop meant only to provide regeneration. 

The props that you guys are using are precisely the opposite in that they are props optimized only for thrust.  Is it possible that the (un-optimized for regen) props must be "overcome" before any regeneration can occur?  That the reason you must put it in gear and give it a slight bit of what amounts to forward thrust energy is that you are overcoming the resistance of a prop that is not set up for regeneration at all.  Once you have the prop nearly providing thrust or at a thrust neutral speed it then takes only a slight additional push from the wind to get the boat into regen territory?  

Not certain what sort of prop would best be for a regen boat but perhaps it is a prop half way between a thrust optimized and generation optimized model if one would like to shoot for maximum efficiency over all?  Maybe???.... digression, digression, digression... probably need a variable pitch prop...

From: acsarfkram <acsarfkram@yahoo.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 1:55 PM
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: REGEN SUCCESS!

 
Hi Mike,

Thanks for changing the video setting. You wrote; Did the happy dance in cockpit! I think I can hear the happy dance in your voice ;-).

When I first got my SolidNav Explorer the directions for regen (as I recall) where to put the forward/reverse switch in reverse and leave the throttle in the off position or maybe slightly on.

After the unit was installed I got an update on regen procedure and it was to set shifter to forward and apply a small amount of throttle.

In practice feathering the throttle to match prop freewheeling rpm (boat sailing speed) makes a sizable difference.

I have gone out for a two hour sail and returned with .02 volts more than I left with. Pretty minimal motoring, maybe ten minutes but still not too shabby.

Mark
Santa Cruz

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Mike <biankablog@...> wrote:
>
> I finally was able to observe my ASMO MARINE Thoosa 9000 system in regen mode after trying over three years. Strange thing was I was not even trying when I found it working. It was probably available all the time. I had recently started electro sailing instead of just letting the prop spin with the EP system off while under sail. One day when the boat was sailing along at 6 knots I checked the amp meter and noticed it had a  positive amp flow. Did the happy dance in cockpit! You can see the regen in action here on my blog:
>  http://biankablog.blogspot.com/2011/09/another-advantage-of-electric.html
> BTW I'm using the same three bladed prop I used with the diesel . Until I can rig up another meter so I can  observe the regen more easily in the cockpit I'll continue to check on it from time to time Though it's not easy to keep a constant eye on it with current meter location.  I'm still happy to know that it is working.
>  
> Capt. Mike
> http://biankablog.blogspot.com
>  
>  
>



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