T-Pain Is On A Boat: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Repowering 40' 1975 20,000 lb sailboat

I'm just about to finish up my second season with electric propulsion and I am more and more convinced I made the right decision and would not ever go back to diesel. But, Rob does bring up some things that each sailor should consider thoughtfully. It took me months to decide to go the electric route. I am glad I did but, not without thinking things through. Here are some of my thoughts and what I found after converting to electric propulsion.

1) I own a SAILBOAT. That is how I prefer to propel the boat. The motor is just auxiliary propulsion. The "prudent" mariner should be aware that anything mechanical or electrical can fail and should sail accordingly and have a backup plan. If you sail halfway out into the ocean because the wind was there on a joyride day sail instead of tacking and making sure you'll be able to get back to port if the winds should die. IMO you have not been a prudent mariner. I should not even have to mention that one should have listened to the weather forecast before setting out too. But, that goes for having a diesel on board too. I've read many stories where people depended on their auxiliary diesels only to have them fail to start because of fuel and or other problems.

2) Going electric has also made me a better sailor. Because I know the limitations of my "auxiliary" propulsion system. I do everything in my power not to use it and to keep it charged up for when I do need it. That means I tend to sail out of the harbor or at least have the sail up so I don't need to use the electric propulsion system as much. But, I know that it is ready to get me out of a jam when I need it. When I had a diesel I would always motor out. Because I already had the diesel warmed up and you never know when it might not start for whatever reason. Yes, I don't get out of the harbor as fast (my choice because I don't want to use more amps than I need) but, I enjoy the ride especially the quietness of the journey and I shut it down ASAP with just a turn of a switch.

3) If I do need to operate under electric propulsion for an extended period of time I will crank up the Honda 2000i generator. This can be done at my leisure where as a diesel needs to be started ASAP in order to make any headway or to get out of a dangerous situation. I on the other hand can operate under battery power for say ten or fifteen minutes to see if conditions change or the wind shifts or increases before I decide whether to crank up the generator. Also when using the generator it will extend the range of the battery bank and when watching the battery current meter I can adjust the throttle to make sure I am either minimizing the drain on the battery bank or actually charging the bank a little while still making headway.

4) When I had a diesel engine I carried around 30 plus gallons of diesel fuel on board whether I used it or not. With electric propulsion I find that 5 gallons of gas (stored on deck) is plenty for 70-100 mile cruises that I make. After the cruise is done I can take whats left and put it into my car gas tank and get fresh fuel for the next cruise. I could not do that with the diesel fuel and was always worried about it going bad in the tank requiring fuel polishing or having it clogging the fuel filters causing an engine failure. As happened to me coming into Boston harbor a few years ago.

5) I remind myself that boats were sailing these waters long before people started to put engines into sailboats facing the same conditions we faced without engines and/or motors.

Yes, there are limitations to electric propulsion compared to a diesel engine but, I find the benefits to out way them and make adjustments accordingly. The result is I am enjoying my sailing time much more and spending less time and $$$ on maintenance of the propulsion system.

Mike
http://biankablog.blogspot.com

--- On Wed, 10/7/09, Rob Johnson <dopeydriver@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

From: Rob Johnson <dopeydriver@yahoo.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Repowering 40' 1975 20,000 lb sailboat
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, October 7, 2009, 4:14 AM

Jason , without a doubt some of the new purpose built boats , like the cat you are looking at , are superb boats , no doubt with a high degree of safety factor .
But I worry about some of the retrofits , in particular.
In my case my boat is a 22 ft Iain Oughtred Grey Seal centre board gaff cutter that I am repowering , and I really would have liked to have been able to use silent electric power for most of the time I am using other than wind power.
Without tearing my beautiful boat apart , there was no way I could go all electric power , and certainly not with the degree of safety I have with even my old I/C engine.
For me , I was really sweating on Hybrid Marine , I think their system would be perfect for me , it would give me the best of both worlds.
But I'm not prepared to wait for it , so I have opted for a Lombardini LDW 502 M.
I know that will take me wherever I want to go , in relative safety , easily.
The example I mention on my last post , well I have been on that trip , but with the wind and current behind me , surfing along at 10 knots in a couta boat .
But what if I had wanted to go the other way ?.
I believe we should set up for the "worst case scenario" , because if you don't , one day you well may regret your lack of foresight.
Another thing .
I am working with a boatbuilder of 40 years experience , and I sail with men of the sea with just as much , or greater experience on the water.
They won't have petrol , or LPG on a boat , end of story.
That of necessity includes outboards.
Simply because petrol is such a volatile , and dangerous substance .
Sounds a bit extreme , but these men used petrol engines in the past , and when diesels became available with better power to weight ratios , they changed all of the petrols out for diesels.
Where does spilled petrol go ?.
Where does leaking LPG go ?.
Are the men of the sea receptive to electric power ? , yes , very much so , but they are realists , and any system has to be shown to be better , and safer , before they will take it on , they aren't doing it for some "warm and fuzzy feeling".
Deal with reality , and stay safe.
Regards Rob J.
--- On Wed, 7/10/09, jasegard <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com> wrote:

From: jasegard <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com>
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Repowering 40' 1975 20,000 lb sailboat
To: electricboats@ yahoogroups. com
Received: Wednesday, 7 October, 2009, 8:52 AM

Totally agree with you Rob,

I hear and see a lot about this but I never get any firm examples of different set ups. I've been looking into this for a long time now. I'm looking to do it with a light weight 40-50 ft Catamaran and I don't want to have to rely on a Generator. It seems if we were to do it it would be a certain part experimental. Try this link for some basic case studies of monos with electric drives.

http://www.electric motor.net. au/casestories. html

At the moment we are in the Philippines and about to commission a 40ft Fusion Catamaran that has a Glacier Bay set up onboard. I will be sure to write up here about our experiences once we are in the water. Shall also get some pictures up of the set up.

All the best,

Jason

--- In electricboats@ yahoogroups. com, Rob Johnson <dopeydriver@ ...> wrote:
>
> Don , once again , you would need to be specific.
> Batteries used to propulsion I believe should be seperated from house batteries , otherwise if you got in a situation where the batteries ran down , not only would you lose power , but also the use of a lot of instruments , radio etc.
> But even running a 20,000 lb boat on 4 batteries , where is it safe or astute to do that ?.
> Is it going to be enough to work for hours in to a head wind , or a strong current ?.
> I would dearly like to go to electric power , thats why I've been on this forum for some time , but I've yet to see anything safe enough to use in my environment , and I suspect the same would be true for a lot of other forumites.
> Regards Rob J.
>
> --- On Wed, 7/10/09, postal6@... <postal6@... > wrote:
>
>
> From: postal6@... <postal6@... >
> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Repowering 40' 1975 20,000 lb sailboat
> To: electricboats@ yahoogroups. com
> Received: Wednesday, 7 October, 2009, 7:56 AM
>
>
> Usually electric propulsion systems are less weight than the original
> gas/diesel set-up. Most sailing vessels utilize two batteries, and the
> addition of two more is less than the weight of a half filled gas/diesel
> tank. And comparing the weight of a gas or diesel engine, with
> transmission, to a Mars electric motor is quite a drastic weight
> differential. Less weight, less chance of flammable explosion, would
> make any insurance entity happy. And if lead cell batteries cause a
> safety concern, alternative
> batteries are available.
> Don Swanson
>
> On Tue, 6 Oct 2009 20:48:56 +0200 "Alan Ford" <alanford@.. .>
> writes:
>
> Gday all
> Replacing keel mass ( in a sailing vessel) with batteries is going to
> affect your boats stability curve, and quite possibly then any insurance
> cover you may have, as you are altering an original design parameter
> pertaining to safety.
> rgds
> Alan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: aweekdaysailor
> To: electricboats@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 6:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Repowering 40' 1975 20,000 lb sailboat
>
> Futher confirmation that the "sweet spot" - sailboats < ~30' holds.
>
> The combination of cheap mass-produced components (golf carts...) in the
> appropriate power range (6HP) and the ICE weight-credit to
> energy-capacity/ range curve make this a very viable target. Much over
> that, and the power requirements start to overwhelm the load-bearing
> capacity of the vessel using lead-acid and the budget of the owner if
> using LiPO4.
>
> AC Motor with AC generators maybe? It's just a series-hybrid at that
> point but could still be supplemented with a big inverter/charger and a
> moderate battery-bank for harbor maneuvers.
>
> Denny has suggested taking some weight off the keel to compensate - that
> would help push the envelope to larger boats. In fact the first time I
> read about an electric conversion it was a concrete-keel Rawson 30 where
> the owner had chisled out the concrete to make room/capacity for the
> batteries. Not too many of those available unfortunately, so we're left
> with chopping lead (or iron...)
>
> Hollow (filled fiberglass) keels on some boats?...hmmm. ..
>
> Any marine architects on the list?
>
> -Keith
>
> --- In electricboats@ yahoogroups. com, <joec_43@> wrote:
>
> > I received two prices for converting, and without batteries, is getting
> close to $12,000 US. Out of my ballpark, and no savings in the long run
> at all.
>
> >
>
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