>> My responses preceded by ">>"
On Thursday, May 11, 2017 12:10 AM, "Dan maitland captmaitland@gmail.com [electricboats]" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Bob
Hi there
>> Hi Dan! I'm no expert in this stuff so don't put much weight into my opinions.
When you have a few moments to spare.
>> Sorry to be so slow to respond.
Think of this as and end user on a computer asking.
This is almost the joke (a guy walks into a bar and wants a battery) LOL
>>LOL
In English now, an end user is looking at putting a battery in a boat.....?
Now lets see if I get it at all,
A big lead acid, better for the environment because it is all recycled ? GOOD.
>>I suppose. I dunno. Lots of heavy stuff to move to the recycling plant.
Much cheaper to buy GOOD. Much heavier GOOD and BAD ballast vs to heavy.
>> Cheaper = good. Heavier = bad. You'll need FAT cables if you're going to place batteries all over your boat. My boat now bends a bit in the middle.
you can only run it down to about 50% and then it starts to get damaged BAD.
>> %50 discharge limit is BAD and deceptive to the unaware.
the blades don't stay flooded a cell drys out and (with my own eyes on my own boat).
BOOMMM acid everywhere baking soda boxes and water everywhere, then all in my bilge. The nastiest scariest clean up I have ever experienced BAD BAD BAD. seriously scary.
Now times that by say enough of them to push two 20 KW motors, that's a whole bunch of potential BOOM and battery top off and vapors at a minimum right or wrong? your thoughts.
>> Did you experience a BOOM or a "thermal runaway fire"" Hydrogen, being much lighter than air can probably, usually, probably self dissipate safely. Too bad it can't bond with and elevate stray propane molecules.
AGM still a lead acid right? okay if so cheaper than the newer designs I get it, GOOD.
>> AGM = Goldilocks. Yes, still lead acid but no maintenance, which is good for old, lazy sailors like me.
They can be run down much further than flooded GOOD. But, the cells? can be damaged if Run down to far and be burn't? SOUNDS BAD Killing off the battery life completely BAD
>> Not sure about AGM rundown-to-fire scenarios. I'm thinking that doesn't happen. TPPL has purported low-SOC tolerance. (Sorry for the abbreviations.)
Now if you had banks and banks, racks and racks, boxes and boxes of them all over the boat for ballast and power. How would you know which one of these batteries are BAD or going BAD or maybe just damaged and not working as well? is it still safe to run it till it quits? Or is it BOOM again. Lots of gauges like a power plant or crawling around with a meter kind of thing to find a dead cell ?Yikes. WeepOL in a sad sad way.
>> I just have four, 12 volt AGM battery "modules", a.k.a. batteries. It's fairly easy to measure their voltages. I would be nervous to run the battery bank into the ground if one of them were way out of whack.
That was the first question. Later today, its mid day here.
I'm about to walk into a west marine or some other place in my area that has an AGM pull out the three older flooded's just to get them off my boat and auto trickle charge one AGM to run my bilge pumps during the re-power and re-fit on a fiberglass 50 ft cruiser.
>> Sailboat, I assume. 50 feet = big = lots of batteries.
The AGM battery prices are all over the map. Whats a good one? a bad one? what features matter more than others? seems vibration I.E. safety would drive me more than any other factors based on my scary experience, it's still a question for you?
>>I picked up my recent battery knowledge/opinions from James Lambden at Electroprop. He likes Northstar TPPL AGM batteries so that's what's on my boat. They seem pricey/safe/long-lived.
Now all that asked, it's meat and potatoes time.
In plain English: for a big project repower, or even just to run certain systems.
A flooded battery cost $ ? weighs ? performs ? (Safety ??? oh please)....
>> Don't heel too much and keep distilled water aboard.
vs
An AGM costs $ ? weighs ? performs ? safety???? its still lead right?
>>I paid $750 USD (retail, I guess) for each 210 Ah 12 volt Northstar AGM 150 lb. battery.
vs
Real Soon Now? lithium ion costs ? weighs ? performs? safety ?
vs
LION ? is that right the same thing ? costs $ ? weighs ? performs ? safety ?
vs
Just lithium vs Ni Cad vs ???? something out of a Prius? OMG.
reading messages using terms like SMOKING and BURNING UP ? BAD...
>> I'd like, one day, to "go lithium", but I'm currently concerned about the complexity of the battery management system. But, there are "real soon now" substantial price/performance improvements anticipated. Ask me again in 2019.
And the environmental ramifications.....
I have been reading about the new designs. UM?
Seem like an oxymoron to me, We own boats were the biggest OSHA nightmare
next to a personal fossil fuel power plant.
>>True dat. I didn't go green, I went reliable.
In the resources used to build and maintain these Dock Queens in the water. YUK.
We own boats, were already pregnant, I just want to know what am I delivering
in the end and have to live with.
And that's just the battery issue.
An engineer showed me performance math numbers and it was staggering.
As to how little performance I would be getting for the investment.
your thought?
>> If yours is a sailboat, maybe you just want something to get you off, and back onto the dock. Wind is awesome.
Capt Dan
Capt by Credit Card and pink slip only.
Graduate of the Caddy Shack R Dangerfield course at the
HEY YOU BENT MY ANCHOR, nautical safety institute.
On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 4:04 PM, Bob Moriarty moriartybob@yahoo.com [electricboats] <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Was going to tack this on to one of Hannu's threads but figure it might be better in its own..Just trying to do a sanity check on the basic math, comparing my 48V AGM battery bank with Real Soon Now lithium ion prices/energy densities.Please point out my error(s). :-)My AGM bank:Capacity 10 kWh (210Ah @ 12V X 4 batteries in series)Weight 600 lbs (273 kg)Cost $3K USDReal Soon Lithium:Capacity 10 kWhWeight 1 kg/380 Wh X 10,000 Wh == 26.3 kg (Wow, that's a lot less than 273 kg)Cost ~$1K USD (@ $112/kWh)I must've lost a decimal point here and there in my calculations.Ox 1976 C&C 33
LOA: 32.87' / 10.02m
LWL: 26.42' / 8.05m
Displacement: 9800 lbs./ 4445 kgs.
Propulsion System: Electroprop Racer
Batteries: 4 X Northstar 210 FT Blue+Current Prop: 2-blade fixed 16X10X1
(original - came w/A4)
Jax, FL USA
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Posted by: Bob Moriarty <moriartybob@yahoo.com>
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