T-Pain Is On A Boat: [Electric Boats] Re: Regeneration Free Lunch

Wednesday, June 17, 2009

[Electric Boats] Re: Regeneration Free Lunch

On the subject of the geopolitics of fossil fuels, I would just as soon leave them off this forum so as not to alienate anyone that may have valuable information to share on the actual topic moving floating objects with flowing electrons.

That said, I had a ChemEng prof years ago that would often state that crude oil is far too valuable a resource to just burn in engines. So much of our daily experience revolves around the non-fuel uses of petroleum products... Plastics, resins, dyes, solvents and pharmaceuticals. If we take the prime-mover aspect out of oil, the supply, while not indefinite by any means, will be extended a great many more years than the current 50-ish that models predict.

Oil wells and the petro-chemical industry have a valid place at the table of future industries, but hopefully more in a materials science aspect than as our source of energy.

Now lets get off our high horses and soap boxes and figure out efficient ways of making electrons flow such that our floating things move.

Cheers,

/Jason

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "dennis wolfe" <dwolfe@...> wrote:
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> Mark,
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> Amen.
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> Both my son and his wife are in the middle east fighting for our right to keep unlimited supplies of cheap oil flowing. Too bad our politicians don't have the brains and/or balls to pay for the war with a crude oil use tax. You are right that our choices are based on prices that ignore so many external costs.
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> There would be no war if there was no market for crude, the cost of crude should reflect the cost of the war. Ten minutes with google shows the cost of the GWOT in 2008 was $20 per barrel of oil consumed in the US.
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> What's the per barrel cost of global warming???
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> Denny
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> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mark Stafford
> To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 11:00 AM
> Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Regeneration Free Lunch
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> Thanks all for hanging in there with the regen conversation. I like the marginality of regen; I like how that slim slice of speed energy we are required to sacrifice and trade for gathering more electrons encourages the recognition of how precious those stored electrons are. We really have to pay through the nose to gather/store electrons with current technology.
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> The 800 pounds of lead battery to 1 gallon fuel ratio could effect the same recognition, but it usually has the opposite psychological impact: since we horrendously under-value fuel, we end up devaluing batteries.
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> What do I mean, "under-value fuel"? When Americans think of a gallon of gasoline (we never think about petrol), we do not consider our amazing transportation infrastructure, our failed health-care system, our dead soldiers, other country's dead civilians, our expensive and inflammatory self-perpetuating arms-race, our opportunity cost of nearly 70 years of dying for oil, and the potential extinction of humanity. We are a blind petroleum economy, and the corporations making billions on our backs would sooner us disappear than transition to a non-petroleum economy.
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> If we really considered the long term effects and affects of using petroleum gasoline, we would be paying at least $100 USD per gallon. Corporations have so thoroughly externalized those costs (securing supply, building roads, and mitigating environmental impact), that to even suggest we pay a dime more, sends the world into a tizzy!
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> Cognitively, this is hard to actually consider. It is easier to emotionally react, to brand me kooky, laugh at my stupidity, and continue on your merry way. I invite you instead to consider the possibility that we really have been blind, that our extraordinarily delightful lives have costs that others have been paying, and to begin to recognize and appreciate those payments.
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> There is no free lunch. Someone else is paying the rest of that $97 per gallon. Sure the US Taxpayer gives another $10. Our children (debt) give another $20. Our health gives another $5. Ours and others' attendant fatalities give another $30. Our opportunity cost gives another $20. That leaves $12 gambling that we as a species survive. Give or take.
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> This is why I advocate for green(er) boats. Let's start walking towards a brighter future. Keep up the regen dream, the X-prize 10:1, the patience with newbies like me.
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> Mark Stafford
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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