T-Pain Is On A Boat: Re: [Electric Boats] more on outboard comparisons

There will be a great opportunity for a side-by -side test at the Wye Island Challenge, Electric Boat Marathon, around Oct. 1, 2013. http://www.electricboats.org

Perhaps someone will bring a Ray or Parsun. They are certainly welcome.

The Torqeedo 4R can operate safely within mfg specs up to 65 v. At 65v the Torqeedo control locks you out and gives you an overvoltage error message. I routinely run mine at 57 to 60 v. on an 18 cell bank of 160 Ah Thundersky's. My Elcon charger takes the bank up to 68 v. The bank quickly drops back to about 66 v. when the charger switches off. If I am in a hurry, I just switch out one cell temporarily. In a few minutes of running it is under 65 and we are back on all 18 cells. Many others using the same motor with AGM batteries routinely use 5 x 12v.

Ned

On Oct 17, 2012, at 12:40 PM, oak wrote:

I would LOVE to have the opportunity to do a side-by-side-by-side taste test on the Ray, the Parsun, and the Torqeedo outboards for the high end.

Just out of curiosity, if I had endless $$ (or a willing sponsor), I'd love to try each on my Catalina 30.
Of course, these motors are probably much more appropriately sized for something in the Catalina 22-25' range.

My understanding of the RAY outboard is that the 5HP version (system 500) probably compares most appropriately with the Torqeedo 4 and the Parson F10 series. Is that correct?

From the specs, it looks like the Ray 500 series runs on 60 volts, not 48V. This is another apples and oranges thing... It stands to reason that the higher voltage will allow you to take advantage of more power, but at the cost of yet more battery(ies).

John

From: Ned Farinholt <nedfarinholt@comcast.net>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 9:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Duffy Electric Launch (alternatives?)

I thought you guys might want to see a more recent test of marine electric propulsion systems. I am kind of happy with Torqeedo since I won this 24 mile marathon two years in a row with their 4 kw unit and their high pitch prop. BTW, the day after the race, I took my wife of 50+ years around the course in 15 knot winds and 2 foot chop on the bay. Boat, motor, and wife all performed admirably.

There were nine contestants this year: inboards, outboards, lithium and lead acid, single and multihull, professionals and amateurs. We look forward to more competition next year. All are welcome. Come join us.

I have no connection with Torqeedo other than as a customer.

Best wishes,
Ned Farinholt

TORQEEDO WINS ELECTRIC BOAT RACE

            Solidifying its place as the leader in electric propulsion, Torqeedo recently won first, second and third places in the 12th annual Wye Island Electric Boat Marathon in St. Michaels, Maryland. This year nine contestants took on the 24-mile race to circumnavigate Wye Island using only electric motors.
            Torqeedo was able to take the top three spots because it manufactures the most efficient electric outboard motors in the marketplace. Higher overall efficiencies result in more power and more range, allowing boats to travel with a lower battery weight and greater speeds than traditional electric motors.
First place went to Ned Farinholt with Erged-On II, a 19' custom runabout powered by a Torqeedo Cruise 4.0 Remote motor. He finished with a record-setting time of 2 hours, 7 minutes and an average speed of 12mph. Second place was taken by Dr. James Campbell and his 20' OldTown Canoe, which was propelled by a Torqeedo Cruise 4.0 Tiller motor. He came in with a time of 2 hours, 27 minutes and an average speed of 10mph.
Rounding out the top three was Capt. Todd Sims of ePower Marine and his Saturn 16' inflatable powered by a Torqeedo Cruise 2.0 Tiller motor. He finished the race in 2 hours, 43 minutes with an average speed of 9mph.
            A video of the race can be found at http://youtu.be/7nsjpqWHWpo.
            Torqeedo's high-tech outboards combine lithium batteries with leading-edge motor technology and propeller design. They offer unrivalled strength and reliability for superior primary propulsion. Environmentally-sound and truly innovative, these electric outboards have many applications.
        Contact Torqeedo Inc., 171 Erick Street Unit A-1, Crystal Lake, IL 60014. 815-444-8806; Fax: 815-444-8807.  usa@torqeedo.com;  www.torqeedo.com.

On Oct 17, 2012, at 9:31 AM, woody wrote:

Posted 8/11/2011
COMMENTS ON THE TORQUEEDO ELECTRIC OUTBOARD
By Morton Ray CEO Ray Electric Outboards, Inc.

Torqueedo is trying to compete with REO, but their efforts are riffed with hype, falsehood, mistakes and problems.
Torqueedo's incessant statements and innuendoes concerning assumed deficiencies of our product, without any substantiation engendered these comments.
1. They didn't understand the market:
They first marketed a 2 HP outboard with no remote steering. REO has been saying for years that the only market for electric outboards was electric only lakes on pontoon boats, requiring remote steering. They have of course corrected this problem, but it took a while.
2. No trip release presents a potential danger:
Torqueedo's must either be locked down or free to kick up. Either way it can be dangerous depending on the situation. When running on open water the motor should be free to kick up or serious damage may result if it hits an underwater obstruction. On the other hand if you are coming into the dock you have no breaks or reverse if the outboard is not locked down.
The Ray trip release will allow the motor to kick up without damage if it hits an obstruction, then fall back into running position again. It will not pull up out of the water when put into reverse; you always have full reverse available.
3. Weak acceleration:
Both the Torqueedo 2.0 and 4.0 models have permanent magnet motors which have the characteristic of excessive current under increased load such as stemming high winds or pulling kids on inner tubes. Under overload conditions the motor may be cutback by the speed control by design. Also to prevent overheating, the maximum current may be limited thus also limiting acceleration and reversing thrust. The 4.0 has weak acceleration compared with the Ray, according to our tests. One of our dealers reported an incident in which a 2.0 overheated and cut back when pulling 2 kids on inner tubes.
The Ray is not limited in acceleration. It does not overheat, cut back nor is the current limited.
4. Exaggerated comparison of power and efficiency:
Torqueedo showed in their 2011 catalogs a silhouette of a Ray Electric Outboard, and referred to it as a "Conventional electric outboard". They said the power rating = input power. Ridiculous! They also implied that the Ray Outboard could have overall propulsion efficiency as low as 18%. Actual efficiency is 45.7% , published under specifications on our website in 2009.

5. Torqueedo falsely claims largest propeller:
Torqueedo claims that their 12" diameter propeller is the largest available, ignoring the fact that the Ray propeller is 12.5" in diameter.
6. Rateing 2HP Torqueedo's at 6HP and 4HP Torqueedo's at 9HP:
This is certainly misleading particularly if statements like 6HP equivalency for the 2.0 without further explanation are made. . Equivalent to What? They, like Minn Kota did several years ago, are comparing apples with oranges. A gasoline outboard is designed for a planning boat, so it doesn't work well on displacement boats which all practical electric boats are. The real problem arises when the equivalency explanation is shortened or dropped like 6HP equivalency or just 6HP. So people hear and assume this small new motor by some new technology is 6HP. I discovered a dealer actually telling customers the 24V Torqueedo is 6 HP. Apparently 2.0 and 4.0 mean shaft HP, but this is not stated. If the same method of HP rating is not used for all outboards, meaningful comparison cannot be made. Unilaterally changing the rating method will not serve Torqueedo or the industry well.
7. High Maintenance costs:
The Torqueedo apparently has inadequate protection against damage when the lower unit hits an obstruction. This is in addition to the no trip release problem. Apparently damage to propeller, gears, shaft connection or whatever might give way is provided by the electronics which senses the sudden torque increase and stops the motor. One of my dealers says this doesn't work and the shaft somehow becomes uncoupled internally, says he had four fail in this way in four months. This breakdown starts with fishing line damaging oil seals admitting water into the pod. Damage of fishing lines was reported not under warranty. Any breakdown requires shipping the outboard to a repair facility as repairs cannot be made by dealers.
This contrasts with the Ray 2 year warranty on the propeller and all other underwater parts no matter what you hit, fishing line included. Plus the Ray motor is able to be repaired by the dealer.
Morton Ray
CEO

"I'm damned; I'm in love with the wind swept, stormy sea. Drawn by her rawness, her salty-scented spray tugs at my heart and my soul", "So Many Boats, So Little Time!"

From: Eric <eric14850@yahoo.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 11:54 PM
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Duffy Electric Launch (alternatives?)

I went to the Ray site and looked at the outboards. Then I did some comparisons to other options.

My comments:
Bottom end gear ratios are meaningless. The only significant issues at the bottom end are propeller speed, size, shape, and the resultant efficiency (for displacement hulls at a given speed larger diameter and slower propeller rpm (given efficient shape) are better for efficiency).

Parson looks cutesy and is expensive for the claimed performance.
Torqeedo looks very well engineered, the Mercedes of the group. Unfortunately, I have seen information indicating it does not have the reliability of a Mercedes.
Ray looks crude and primitive. On the plus side it has nice big two bladed prop which could hide behind a skeg were the motor mounted inboard on a sailboat in place of a saildrive.

Information from the company websites for their 48v offering (Each company may have calculated HP and thrust the same way, or differently. There is no way to know, but HP to thrust claims are all over the place):
Parson rated at 5 HP at the propeller shaft 130 lbs thrust. $2999
Torqeedo rated at 9.9 hp gas outboard equivalent 189 lbs thrust. $3,849
Ray rated at 4 HP 195 lbs thrust $3,795

Home built possibility:
PMAC-SSR Motor Drive Kit (motor and controller which support regen. From electricmotorsport.) 6 HP continuous $1650. In addition one would need two toothed pulleys correctly sized to gear the prop to the desired rpm, toothed drive belt, outboard lower end and a mounting bracket with belt tensioner to weld the motor to the lower end ($1000 materials and labor should be an overly generous sum). Total: $2650

For comparison: 8 HP Honda 4 stroke with remote, electric start, and alternator: $3087
Will any of the above electric options equal the performance of the Honda mounted on the same displacement hull?

Including labor and materials for mounting the motor to a gas outboard lower end a "home built" unit is considerably cheaper than any of the commercial options, plus that option has regeneration capability if coupled to a sailboat.

Why is Ray worth the cost?

Ideally the answer is provided by a comparative study using the same battery pack hooked to each electric outboard option. Performance measured while driving the same displacement boat in a series of tests, each at a set speed and amount of battery usage.

Eric

--- In mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com, woody <boatnutwoody@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Doug,
>
> Have you seen the Ray E-Boats made in Cape Coral, Fl? Please take a few minutes to view the web-site at http://www.rayeo.com/ and if you see one of our models that interest you contact Woody at the factory, 8-4:30 M-Th. 239-574-1948
> Thanks
> Woody
> Ray E-Boats
> http://www.rayeo.com/
>
> "I'm damned; I'm in love with the wind swept, stormy sea. Drawn by her rawness, her salty-scented spray tugs at my heart and my soul", "So Many Boats, So Little Time!"
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: DRHitch <drhitch@...>
> To: mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 10:39 AM
> Subject: [Electric Boats] Duffy Electric Launch (alternatives?)
>
>
>
>
> Dear electric boat enthusiasts,
> I recently sold my 22' steamlaunch (Beckmann Mase) and at one time considered converting that boat to electric. I have been looking hard at the line of Duffy electric launches, BUT....
>
> 1) I also was aware of a launch called "Endeavor green" but they appear to not be in business anymore? Was out of Tampa/Clearwater, FL
>
> 2) Elco boats are beautiful, but quite expensive.
>
> 3) Are there certain things to look out for in the Duffy line? Motor brands, controllers, battery monitoring systems?
>
> Thx
> Doug in Chicago
>