they say the missing power was dissipated in the infinitesimal resistance of the connection between the caps.
the Indian guys were a bit sharper because they realized R doesn't cut it.
the EDN article - look at the comments, more specifically:
We just had a big discussion on Electronics_101 about this exact subject.
We had a couple of people, one in particular, who refused to accept the answer.
For the person who said "what about zero ohms?", first, there is no such thing in the real world. Even the switch as it closes starts out at relatively high resistance, compared to when it is fully closed.
Let's say for the sake of argument that you have superconducting wires, and the capacitors are made of superconducting metal with truly lossless dielectric. And you are using some kind of ideal super-switch that closes in zero time to zero resistance with zero rise time.
The wires still have inductance and length. The circuit will ring, radiating away as EM waves. This is how spark gap oscillators work, except there is no second capacitor. The builders minimize resistance as much as possible and rely on the ringing to generate RF.
You can't escape it- somehow the energy escapes. Even with R1 = 0. In the real world, everything has some amount of resistance. There will even be a tiny arc just before the switch contacts close, that burns off energy as light, heat, and noise. As the first initial roughnesses of the switch surfaces touch, a large amount of current begins to flow, burning those first high contact points, expending energy.
We had a couple of people, one in particular, who refused to accept the answer.
For the person who said "what about zero ohms?", first, there is no such thing in the real world. Even the switch as it closes starts out at relatively high resistance, compared to when it is fully closed.
Let's say for the sake of argument that you have superconducting wires, and the capacitors are made of superconducting metal with truly lossless dielectric. And you are using some kind of ideal super-switch that closes in zero time to zero resistance with zero rise time.
The wires still have inductance and length. The circuit will ring, radiating away as EM waves. This is how spark gap oscillators work, except there is no second capacitor. The builders minimize resistance as much as possible and rely on the ringing to generate RF.
You can't escape it- somehow the energy escapes. Even with R1 = 0. In the real world, everything has some amount of resistance. There will even be a tiny arc just before the switch contacts close, that burns off energy as light, heat, and noise. As the first initial roughnesses of the switch surfaces touch, a large amount of current begins to flow, burning those first high contact points, expending energy.
---------------------------------------------------------
Well the one in particular was moi.
I cogitated at length and finally came up with an example that I believed would show the truth and published my pamphlet.
Big hint - the number of electrons in the charge is unchanged.
Hope you like it.
Kirk
From: Myles Twete <matwete@comcast.net>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2012 12:26 PM
Subject: RE: [Electric Boats] charge on paralleled capacitors
How did they have it wrong?
Since you didn't provide it, here's the link to the article that has you concerned enough to opine on it and to try to influence our understanding of capacitors:
I don't suppose you've read this study "Energy Consideration in the two capacitor problem" from 2000?
That study supports the conclusions made in that EDN article as to the magnitude of the energy loss and notes that it is independent of whether the loss is due to resistance, electro-magnetic or other mechanisms. Is your article just focused on the loss mechanism or do you dispute the magnitude of the energy loss or that the energy loss takes place at all?
-Myles
From: electricboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kirk McLoren
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2012 11:13 AM
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] charge on paralleled capacitors
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2012 11:13 AM
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] charge on paralleled capacitors
actually it affects how people understand charge. EDN just published an article on it and had it wrong.
Most people believe EDN because that's how the text books explain it so perusal of the internet will be small help.
free on Nov 2 so download then and discover the truth.
If you are going to use electricity to power your boat or anything else I think the better your understanding the better you can make predictions.
I firmly believe you are better off with more knowledge.
Kirk
Will Rogers quote: "Stupidity got us into this – why can't it get us out?"
From: Myles Twete <matwete@comcast.net>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2012 10:40 AM
Subject: RE: [Electric Boats] charge on paralleled capacitors
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2012 10:40 AM
Subject: RE: [Electric Boats] charge on paralleled capacitors
Sure, the reader is free, but you're asking 99cents to read it…nothing in the intro or glossary inspire me to pay for something that I can get for free on Wikipedia or numerous other sites. Sorry.
More to the point of this list: What does "charge on paralleled capacitors" have to do with Electric Boats?
Please resist self-promotional advertising on this list.
-Moderator
From: electricboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kirk McLoren
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2012 10:18 AM
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] charge on paralleled capacitors
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2012 10:18 AM
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] charge on paralleled capacitors
thank you
there is a free viewer
Will Rogers quote: "Stupidity got us into this – why can't it get us out?"
From: donald bland <dlblandjr@att.net>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2012 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] charge on paralleled capacitors
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2012 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] charge on paralleled capacitors
wow, congrats man ! published author ahoy mateys! I do not have a kindle device , but if one might read such a work on a download to a regular ol'fashioned PC I most assuredly shall do so , again congrats and a tip o' th pint to y' lad !
From: Kirk McLoren <kirkmcloren@yahoo.com>
To: "EDMHomeBuilders@yahoogroups.com" <EDMHomeBuilders@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, October 21, 2012 11:51:45 AM
Subject: [Electric Boats] charge on paralleled capacitors
To: "EDMHomeBuilders@yahoogroups.com" <EDMHomeBuilders@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, October 21, 2012 11:51:45 AM
Subject: [Electric Boats] charge on paralleled capacitors
My new Kindle booklet discussing this is now available.
I provide a further proof the missing energy is not dissipated in the resistance of the connection fastening them together.
Also a bit of commentary on the misuse of kinetic energy when describing the energy of motion.
On Nov 2 it will be promoted, free download.
Will Rogers quote: "Stupidity got us into this – why can't it get us out?"
No comments:
Post a Comment