(WARNING - this is a pretty long post...)
This post is mostly in response to the previous thread: "[Electric Boats] Re: Duffy Electric Launch (alternatives?)"
If someone would like to donate either a Ray or a Parson, I'll be happy to publish some performance tests from my boat! <grin>
I also considered the home route, the Ray, the Parsun, and the Torqeedo.
The Ray was ruled out fairly early:
It looks like a great motor. But there were no local sources, and from what I saw, the price was higher for the same HP.
If you check the Parsun, the Parsun F10ETL appears to be rated at 10HP, just like the others. However, it's MUCH heavier (up to 72 pounds vs. ~40 pounds for the Torqeedo). It's also water cooled - which means more parts and more things to potentially go wrong.
I was strongly considering trying the homemade route, until someone pointed out that if I used an equivalent HP motor in an outboard, I would need to worry about cooling (probably a water circulation pump, etc...). That tipped the scales over the scope of project I wanted to deal with. Especially since I don't have access to a full machine shop...
Reading the Torqeedo web page, I was very impressed with the engineering that went into the design from top to bottom. According to the web page, they DESIGNED the motor specifically for this application. They also engineered the prop for the application. The cooling problem is solved by mounting the motor IN the water, so there's no circulation pump to worry about. The Torqeedo also has a longer shaft than any of the other models (I'm assuming this is mostly due to the large prop).
Bottom line - I went with the Torqeedo, ordered from West Marine. West Marine had as low a price as I could find anywhere else, and substantially lower than one or two other places I could find for the Torqeedo. (this shocked me, but whatever...)
I also bought a hydraulically actuated outboard bracket that cost another $1700. (OUCH!!).
The outboard and lift were mounted on the back of my Catalina 30 sailboat. Due to the swim ladder already being in the middle, the bracket was mounted on the SIDE (similar to other sailboat outboard brackets). I spent the $$ on the hydraulic bracket thinking that as high as the side of the boat was, it would be very awkward for crew to be able to reach a traditional outboard bracket. It turns out that the bracket had a much larger footprint on the back of the boat than a traditional (small) motor bracket. This meant it had to be mounted up higher - which meant that I couldn't get the motor deep enough in the water.
Cool as it was, I had to return the hydraulic bracket, and go with a traditional outboard bracket.
West Marine was very gracious about accepting the return without even charging a re-stocking fee. I was very surprised at this, since I had obviously installed the bracket, and it had an electric motor. I was VERY pleased in that aspect of the dealings with West Marine.
Back to the boat....
The small traditional outboard bracket was fine for the Torqeedo. The Torqeedo is MUCH lighter than gas and electric motors of comparable HP.
To date, I've only done some INITIAL testing with the Torqeedo on a Catalina 30. Bear in mind that I get to deal with SPECIAL conditions - I'm on a warm INLAND LAKE - so no huge waves, no long distances to cover. I wouldn't use an outboard if I were out on the coast!!
The Torqeedo seems to have plenty of thrust for powering the boat going FORWARD. Unfortunately, a 10HP engine on the back of a 30 foot boat doesn't work terribly well in reverse. Backing out of the slip in a strong wind will be challenged. Using reverse to slow/stop the boat when coming into the slip in first experiments appears to be almost useless. The addage, "approach a dock at a speed no faster than that which you wish to crash into said dock" seems appropriate, as always.
The prop and motor unit seem robust enough. I like the controls. So far, the only part that looks a bit "cheap" is the lever that locks the engine down (unlock to tilt motor, lock in down position to allow reverse).
Reaching all the way down from the side of the Catalina 30 to pull up the motor bracket and then tilt the motor is still a bit of a challenge, and might be too much for some crew members.
In retrospect, I would really like to have tried the Parsun. It's about the same $$ for the same HP. It weighs more, but it looks like the 10HP version has electric tilt. This might allow me to use a fixed outboard bracket that gets the motor lower into the water, and just use a push button to raise and lower the motor when done. This would be MUCH easier than pulling up the motor out on the water once the sails were set.
Again, I don't have speed or range numbers yet. I very much want to collect a lot more data. But first I'm trying to get a feel for what my range is on current batteries (since I'm still in the experimental stage, I went cheap with 4x deep cycle marine batteries for the 48V - so I have no idea if I have 20 min, or 2 hours of range...).
I thought I had seen a 24V marine battery at Walmart that was in a form factor 24 case. That would let me get the 48 volts with only two additional batteries. While not having a lot of capacity, it would be sufficient as a "get home" backup. Then I could feel a lot more comfortable testing the primary battery pack to it's limit, knowing that all I have to do is flip a switch over to the secondary bank when I'm done and want to get back in the slip.
Hope this might be helpful insight to at least someone out there...
From: Eric <eric14850@yahoo.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 10:54 PM
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Duffy Electric Launch (alternatives?)
I went to the Ray site and looked at the outboards. Then I did some comparisons to other options.
My comments:
Bottom end gear ratios are meaningless. The only significant issues at the bottom end are propeller speed, size, shape, and the resultant efficiency (for displacement hulls at a given speed larger diameter and slower propeller rpm (given efficient shape) are better for efficiency).
Parson looks cutesy and is expensive for the claimed performance.
Torqeedo looks very well engineered, the Mercedes of the group. Unfortunately, I have seen information indicating it does not have the reliability of a Mercedes.
Ray looks crude and primitive. On the plus side it has nice big two bladed prop which could hide behind a skeg were the motor mounted inboard on a sailboat in place of a saildrive.
Information from the company websites for their 48v offering (Each company may have calculated HP and thrust the same way, or differently. There is no way to know, but HP to thrust claims are all over the place):
Parson rated at 5 HP at the propeller shaft 130 lbs thrust. $2999
Torqeedo rated at 9.9 hp gas outboard equivalent 189 lbs thrust. $3,849
Ray rated at 4 HP 195 lbs thrust $3,795
Home built possibility:
PMAC-SSR Motor Drive Kit (motor and controller which support regen. From electricmotorsport.) 6 HP continuous $1650. In addition one would need two toothed pulleys correctly sized to gear the prop to the desired rpm, toothed drive belt, outboard lower end and a mounting bracket with belt tensioner to weld the motor to the lower end ($1000 materials and labor should be an overly generous sum). Total: $2650
For comparison: 8 HP Honda 4 stroke with remote, electric start, and alternator: $3087
Will any of the above electric options equal the performance of the Honda mounted on the same displacement hull?
Including labor and materials for mounting the motor to a gas outboard lower end a "home built" unit is considerably cheaper than any of the commercial options, plus that option has regeneration capability if coupled to a sailboat.
Why is Ray worth the cost?
Ideally the answer is provided by a comparative study using the same battery pack hooked to each electric outboard option. Performance measured while driving the same displacement boat in a series of tests, each at a set speed and amount of battery usage.
Eric
--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, woody <boatnutwoody@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Doug,
>
> Have you seen the Ray E-Boats made in Cape Coral, Fl? Please take a few minutes to view the web-site at http://www.rayeo.com/ and if you see one of our models that interest you contact Woody at the factory, 8-4:30 M-Th. 239-574-1948
> Thanks
> Woody
> Ray E-Boats
> http://www.rayeo.com/
>
> "I'm damned; I'm in love with the wind swept, stormy sea. Drawn by her rawness, her salty-scented spray tugs at my heart and my soul", "So Many Boats, So Little Time!"
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: DRHitch <drhitch@...>
> To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 10:39 AM
> Subject: [Electric Boats] Duffy Electric Launch (alternatives?)
>
>
>
>
> Dear electric boat enthusiasts,
> I recently sold my 22' steamlaunch (Beckmann Mase) and at one time considered converting that boat to electric. I have been looking hard at the line of Duffy electric launches, BUT....
>
> 1) I also was aware of a launch called "Endeavor green" but they appear to not be in business anymore? Was out of Tampa/Clearwater, FL
>
> 2) Elco boats are beautiful, but quite expensive.
>
> 3) Are there certain things to look out for in the Duffy line? Motor brands, controllers, battery monitoring systems?
>
> Thx
> Doug in Chicago
>
My comments:
Bottom end gear ratios are meaningless. The only significant issues at the bottom end are propeller speed, size, shape, and the resultant efficiency (for displacement hulls at a given speed larger diameter and slower propeller rpm (given efficient shape) are better for efficiency).
Parson looks cutesy and is expensive for the claimed performance.
Torqeedo looks very well engineered, the Mercedes of the group. Unfortunately, I have seen information indicating it does not have the reliability of a Mercedes.
Ray looks crude and primitive. On the plus side it has nice big two bladed prop which could hide behind a skeg were the motor mounted inboard on a sailboat in place of a saildrive.
Information from the company websites for their 48v offering (Each company may have calculated HP and thrust the same way, or differently. There is no way to know, but HP to thrust claims are all over the place):
Parson rated at 5 HP at the propeller shaft 130 lbs thrust. $2999
Torqeedo rated at 9.9 hp gas outboard equivalent 189 lbs thrust. $3,849
Ray rated at 4 HP 195 lbs thrust $3,795
Home built possibility:
PMAC-SSR Motor Drive Kit (motor and controller which support regen. From electricmotorsport.) 6 HP continuous $1650. In addition one would need two toothed pulleys correctly sized to gear the prop to the desired rpm, toothed drive belt, outboard lower end and a mounting bracket with belt tensioner to weld the motor to the lower end ($1000 materials and labor should be an overly generous sum). Total: $2650
For comparison: 8 HP Honda 4 stroke with remote, electric start, and alternator: $3087
Will any of the above electric options equal the performance of the Honda mounted on the same displacement hull?
Including labor and materials for mounting the motor to a gas outboard lower end a "home built" unit is considerably cheaper than any of the commercial options, plus that option has regeneration capability if coupled to a sailboat.
Why is Ray worth the cost?
Ideally the answer is provided by a comparative study using the same battery pack hooked to each electric outboard option. Performance measured while driving the same displacement boat in a series of tests, each at a set speed and amount of battery usage.
Eric
--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, woody <boatnutwoody@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Doug,
>
> Have you seen the Ray E-Boats made in Cape Coral, Fl? Please take a few minutes to view the web-site at http://www.rayeo.com/ and if you see one of our models that interest you contact Woody at the factory, 8-4:30 M-Th. 239-574-1948
> Thanks
> Woody
> Ray E-Boats
> http://www.rayeo.com/
>
> "I'm damned; I'm in love with the wind swept, stormy sea. Drawn by her rawness, her salty-scented spray tugs at my heart and my soul", "So Many Boats, So Little Time!"
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: DRHitch <drhitch@...>
> To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 10:39 AM
> Subject: [Electric Boats] Duffy Electric Launch (alternatives?)
>
>
>
>
> Dear electric boat enthusiasts,
> I recently sold my 22' steamlaunch (Beckmann Mase) and at one time considered converting that boat to electric. I have been looking hard at the line of Duffy electric launches, BUT....
>
> 1) I also was aware of a launch called "Endeavor green" but they appear to not be in business anymore? Was out of Tampa/Clearwater, FL
>
> 2) Elco boats are beautiful, but quite expensive.
>
> 3) Are there certain things to look out for in the Duffy line? Motor brands, controllers, battery monitoring systems?
>
> Thx
> Doug in Chicago
>
__._,_.___
| Reply via web post | Reply to sender | Reply to group | Start a New Topic | Messages in this topic (6) |
.
__,_._,___
No comments:
Post a Comment