Wednesday, November 24, 2010

RE: [Electric Boats] Re: High end electric/diesel yacht [3 Attachments]

 
[Attachment(s) from Steve Dolan included below]

 

David,

 

Ideological issues aside, nuclear is an excellent option these days for power generation. I don't know about your local plant which is without a doubt not the latest and greatest but still, if you're charging from that source you can be pretty sure there aren't any particulate or carbon equivalent emission problems.

Gee wiz, I’m greener than I thought! :o)

 


Steve, I think I speak for the whole group when I say we're happy to have you here and you may very well be the most knowledge person available anywhere on these systems (probably more so than the engineers since they haven't had the same field experience), that 410 is certainly a very big boat and an electric drive is an ambitious undertaking.

Hey thanks, I might be up there on the 410’s but I learn something every time I’m on Electra Glide. I’ve actually stayed in close contact with one of the Field Techs for Solomons (now Electric Marine Propulsion http://www.ikanostech.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=frontpage&Itemid=54  ). We do exchange info and ideas.

  


 The manual trans is a good analogy, and it always seemed to me that the choice of charter service was a bold move, I mean, they must have know how those systems were going to be beat to hell! They probably got more use in a season than they would have in ten years in private hands. Still, I reiterate my concern from before, that kind of exposure and that kind of testing was bound to turn people off of these systems, maybe enthusiastic private owners would have been a better option for the long-term sales of these systems. That's all speculation of course, they may have tried private owners who wouldn't bite, they may have made a deal of some sort with the charter companies.

I’m again guessing but I would bet that the owners were looking at the “Charter to Own” deals and were driven by the sales pitch of “less maintenance costs” when they purchased. I don’t know if many know about the charter industry down there but 5 to 6 years is the longest most of those companies want a boat in service do to “ware and tare”. After that period they want newer boats. At $20k a week you can’t blame the renter. I don’t know if any boats were directly bought by the leasing companies.    

 

 

By the way Lagoon has a 470 their electrifying through Tether’s company Emotions http://emotionhybrid.com/ and Dave has done 2 500’s. I first met Dave in Solomons Md on board Electra Glide last year along with Nigel Calder. They wanted to see what improvements had been made over the original design as well as see what issues I had. I mostly had concerns about the lack of monitoring of the batteries as well as the genset that he didn’t really have anything to do with and has since been fixed with 2 $5 parts and been running like a top (knock on wood). The other projects they are working on is a 60’ TAG boat (see on their site) “Tang” and through a grant some HYMAR projects which includes an EMM (energy management system) which they seem to be still having some problems with. KISS!

 

I just love the Lagoon cats, the French charter type cats are given a hard time by the speed freaks, but that's not my MO so I think they're great. My question though is that mainsail, its way up there! Have you found any trouble setting, dousing, sheeting, or generally getting way up on the cabin to mess with the boom or sail? The other question I see raised a lot is the helm placement, any trouble with visibility?

 

I think your talking about the larger cats with fly bridges? Those things are monsters and are a pain to see from. The main sails are very high off the deck and I’m sure having been properly designed to take the raised pitching point they command but they look top heavy. Now the 410 is more conventional and though they have a rag top they are manageable from above all though a hard top down the road is in the plans for us. Housing the main I have an Electric winch but haven’t used it except for the top 2 feet. I need some exercise! Dowsing is easy, release the halyard and it falls into the stack pack. Setting is all from the rear helm and starboard winches’ and the Admiral (all 100lbs) has no issues with it. Overall other than docking this boat (it gets easier every time) it’s stress free.

 

That's interesting. Nigel Calder's books are invaluable for any boat owner. His latest projects I've read about have been real space-ship type electric systems for the entire boat, they seem a little over the top to me, but I'm glad someone is into this stuff in boats, I bet the results when they're all done are going to be amazing.
I mentioned the EMS systems and I think that’s what your referring to on Calder’s boat along with the Power Distribution Systems he’s got on board.  

 

Agreed, the retrofit systems most of us are installing are adequate for the sorts of 25-35 foot boats they're going into but once you get much larger the batteries just get out of hand and the availability of motors, controllers, gear boxes, and the like all become more difficult. Something as large as those big cats really do need a complicated system if electricity is involved and pretty much require a gen-set. I can't help but thinking the problem is expectations, with an electric set up the user knows there will be compromises with speed and range, so he accepts them. If one were willing to make the very same compromises and install a pair of diesels of more like 20hp than the 50hp that is the usual and accept the very same compromise I wonder if they could get away with a much simpler system and better fuel economy if it was used in the same way as an electric would have been.

 

I’m no expert or heavy into electrics but I don’t feel like the system is all that complicated. Now there is no way I’m going to rebuild a controller or fix an electric motor but really what else is there? Most failures are wiring related. I do have a Main Distribution Box but inside that is mostly a couple of buss bars, breakers, and some big wires. (I tend to over simplify) but if you stare at it long enough it falls into place. It took me the longest time to comprehend the fact that the batteries, generator, motors and Inverter could all run to the same buss bars without burning up or how the distribution of power would work between the batteries and genset. As with anything complicated you just break it down into smaller pieces.   


Given your experience, could you describe your electric system, hybrid or otherwise for a cat like your 410 or something similar? I know a few decades ago there was a lot of talk about hydraulic drive for cats, using a single engine to drive a pair of hydraulic motors to move the boat would, the efficiencies of hydraulics are pretty good these days, comparable to a hybrid electric system? I know hydraulics are pretty 'industrial' and I'm sure that's a turn off for a lot of people. The only think I'd like less than a diesel spill in the boat is hydraulic fluid.

I wouldn’t want to depend on my sailing skills to bring my boat into a dock on sails alone under “ruff” conditions. Something is going to get broken. Running a single engine for propulsion leaves you with no means to “get out of trouble” accept the sails (well the anchor to). On a Big boat you want to have options. I agree on the “spills”. Part of the systems on a Blue Water boat have to be redundant. If something fails you want to have a plan “B” or even a plan “C”. Having 2 hulls makes a dual system the way to go. God what a dream it is to be able to spin on a dime.

 

I attached a couple of pictures to see the diagram of the power flow as well as a side view of the boat. I would be happy to answer any other questions.

 

Have a great Thanksgiving everyone,

 

Steve in Solomons MD


 


Steve in Solomons MD



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Attachment(s) from Steve Dolan

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1 of 1 File(s)

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