On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 5:05 PM, Eric
<ewdysar@yahoo.com> wrote:
David,
I've been involved with electric car conversions for about 15 years, and I have seen the same emission arguments against electric cars. Some people have claimed that electric cars should have higher emissions per mile that average cars due to local power sources. There is now solid evidence to the contrary, the Nissan Leaf is recognized with EPA gas milage equivalent of 99mpg with holistic emissions much lower than the latest gasoline hybrids or hyper-efficient diesels.
Respectfully, the EPA methodology isn't as foolproof as a single number can explain. Electric cars, unless they are being charged from a known renewable source, such as wind, solar, biomass, or hydro, do have emissions associated with their use, but determining those emissions is a case-by-case situation starting from their charging outlet and ending up at the mine or the well where the fuel originates. I have no doubt that electric cars, when compared to conventional cars, use less energy to drive around, but I think its more from their owners attention to weight, driving habits, and design of the vehicle rather than something inherent in using grid power instead of point of use power.
As far as "what's the point", their use case is different than my boating needs; however, that doesn't make their use case any less valid. I know a number of large power boaters that use their boats for "sunset harbor cruises" more than half the time that they cast off from the dock. That usage is low speed and could be entirely covered by shore power charging, the diesels would not need to be started at all.
No argument there. Boats are pleasure objects, they're all wonderful when they fulfill the desires of their owners, and I'd never tell someone they had a 'bad boat' as long as it made them happy. Electrics are a great way to power a whole lot of boats out there, but 50 foot planing cruisers isn't one of them, at least not yet. Personally, I'd rather have electrics over an engine any day as long as it met my needs, but that's personal, a lot of people just love big loud engines and more power to them (no pun intended), boats are for personal fun after all.
I agree that given the setup, the electric drives are probably not designed to add power beyond the capabilities of the IC engines, like some automotive hybrids, but again, the use case is different for a boat instead of a car.
The statement that you have no experience with this type of boat makes your arguments against the concept more speculative than practical. I didn't see anything in their marketing info that was any more misleading than what you see in regular promotional propaganda for non-hybrid boats (or cars, or cell phones, or coffee makers, etc...)
My discussion certainly is speculative, I haven't been on the boat and probably never will be (but would love a ride if anyone is offering!) maybe someone with some experience running large yachts like this one could weigh in on how they see the electrics being advantageous? For all I know slow speed maneuvering may very well be a big problem with large planning boats, and the engines idle being too loud early in the morning may be a big problem too, I'm sure someone with some experience could give some more examples. Advertising materials get away with an awful lot, legally anyone can pretty much say anything they like, whether that is a good thing or not is an entirely different discussion that has nothing to do with electric boats so thankfully we don't have to get into it, but personally (just me talking here), I think its a stretch to talk about zero emissions and about 'hybrid' because these terms imply something to consumers, and what it implies isn't what this boat does. I'd say the same thing about a whole lot of advertising out there, not trying to single these guys out.
Like you, I personally don't believe that pleasure boats like the ones that we discuss in this group benefit from hybrid drive systems because of the additional complexity, weight, cost, etc. But I know that some people here feel differently and I'm not willing to discount other opinions just because I don't agree with them.
I'm certainly willing to discount, ridicule, even mock the opinions of others if they're sufficiently stupid, it doesn't happen often, and it hasn't happened around here, but I reserve that right:) You make a good point that this is a pleasure boat, and I didn't mean to suggest that any of our boats are 'efficient' or anything like that, its all surplus when it goes into our toys and that's wonderful, from the silliest little lake schooner to the ugliest mega yacht, and certainly to my ancient sailboat, boats are all just fun things not to be taken too seriously. If they would have just described the boat and its systems then I'd probably be more interested in its drive than anything else, but when they go on about how its a planing hull & a displacement hull & has prop tunnels & and is super efficient because it can put around at 8 knots on the electrics, well, come on, I can't let that go:)
We all get to spend our money and time however we like, so more power to whomever wants to buy one these yachts. And I'm guessing that even we will eventually gain benefits from this type of "leading edge" product with the lessons learned from supporting mainstream users.
Sure, no problem with any and everyone buying anything they like. I would question whether there is anything here that's going to trickle down to the rest of us. I mean, they'll probably build what, ten of these total? The systems aren't completely specified but I would guess the components are all off-the-shelf items (at least as much as they can be in boats) rather than representing a break through in motors, controllers, batteries, or gearing. There won't be enough to bring down costs on the components, and the system isn't one that would scale down to the more pedestrian boats discussed around here. At this point in the technology, motors and controllers are mature technologies that are slowly developing but there isn't much more in the way of efficiency to get out of an electric motor. The next big tech needs to come in batteries and the next big technology will move not just boats but transportation, consumer items, and probably just about everything else forward will be energy storage, so I wouldn't think this particular product is going to make that happen either.
Can we talk about how great that new Hunter 27e is? I drive by the plant all the time, if the group would like to put together some questions I'm sure I could make an appointment to go and talk to the designers and see some being built (if they're in production yet.)
David
Fair winds,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA
--- In
electricboats@yahoogroups.com, David Goldsmith <suntreader@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for pointing that out, I just didn't explore their materials
> completely enough to find that spec.
>
> .... if you're charging at the dock then you're just displacing the > emissions and again, it might be more or it might be less depending > on distance to the power generation state, efficiency of the power > grid, type of power plant, efficiency of battery chargers, etc. In > general, point-source fuel use creates fewer emissions, but like I > said, there are so many factors involved it can go either way.
>
> They've got a bunch of best possible scenarios there, like the idea that the
> owner is going to idle along at 7 knots, well below hull speed, instead of
> shooting off at the 22 knots of cruising speed advertised.
>
> So, ultimately, my point is, what's the point of this thing?
>
> I don't have any experience in power boats of this size, is it often a
> problem maneuvering because the engines don't idle low enough?
> ..... I also didn't see it described that the
> electric motors could work in tandem with the diesels for additional total
> power, but they were two separate systems that could drive the same props
> but not at the same time.
>
> Its not really the product I don't like, its the implications in the way its
> described which strikes me as dishonest.
>
> David
>
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