On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Eric <ewdysar@yahoo.com> wrote:
David,
The electric power from my local utility is confirmed to be more than 20% supplied by renewable sources. The largest coal powered plant within 300 miles was decommisioned in 2005. The bulk of our local power generation is from natural gas, so I would say that the electricity in my area is considerably cleaner than power from IC engines. In our area, electricity is not used much for heating anything, water, cooking and area heating is usually natural gas because it is more efficient (cheaper) overall, it just happens to be cleaner too.
Electricity in California is some of the cleanest in the country, so you guys are probably in good shape for electric vehicles from an emissions per person mile stand point. Unfortunately, the rest of us are still running on coal with some natural gas in there and I know of several biomass plants in the works down here, so that's good news. Its still a stretch to assume that emissions are lower via central generation rather than point of use, there are just too many other factors that can shift the equation either way; you've got a much better chance than I do, but for instance California does not have the most modern power grid around and distribution losses can be very very high. I'm not asserting one is better than the other in every case; again, its very complicated, just that even given a very efficient point of use or a very efficient central generation set-up, the question still has too many factors to be able to use one bit of information to answer the question. This isn't a failing for any of us, its just the nature of the beast to have so much uncertainty in it. The most concrete answer would be a moderate solar array on the stern rail to charge up the battery bank. Then you know exactly where the energy is coming from and you know there aren't any emissions related to the daily use of the system.
The other point to be made about claims of renewable power purchases is that sort of accounting and accrediting is very suspect at this stage. There are many cases of those claims being the result of accounting tricks, buying carbon off-set credits of questionable validity, buying shares in funds to build future renewable energy stations, or otherwise making the claim without any relation to the actual energy being generated and used. If you were so inclined, and I'm certainly not, you'd have a lot of work cut out for you to trace the volts at your outlet back to their generation source. I don't have a better answer for you about figuring what type of energy each of us gets but its never as simply as we'd like.
The other point to be made about claims of renewable power purchases is that sort of accounting and accrediting is very suspect at this stage. There are many cases of those claims being the result of accounting tricks, buying carbon off-set credits of questionable validity, buying shares in funds to build future renewable energy stations, or otherwise making the claim without any relation to the actual energy being generated and used. If you were so inclined, and I'm certainly not, you'd have a lot of work cut out for you to trace the volts at your outlet back to their generation source. I don't have a better answer for you about figuring what type of energy each of us gets but its never as simply as we'd like.
Moving on to the trickle down process, I would use the Solomon/Lagoon joint venture as an example. The handful of charter catamarans that were put into service provided enough feedback from regular users, that Solomon re-engineered the systems that they sell to people like you or me. Those charter cats were pulled from service and "new and improved" versions were released later. (I believe that one of the early Lagoons is owned by someone in this group). The real world experience gained from less than a dozen of these large boats has influenced many later ventures, I would bet that the Hunter engineers are very aware of what worked there and what didn't.
I haven't been privy to Lagoon's R&D program so I can't speak to how much feedback they've had or how that has affected their designs for future systems. I'll note that they don't seem to offer an electric model anymore, is that the case? I'm not sure the Lagoon experience was a good one for electric boats. I don't know what happened with those models or with Solomon but the scuttlebutt was the systems didn't perform to expectations, were terribly expensive, unreliable, and were quickly dumped by their owners and the company as well, as we all know perceptions can be more important than the truth, take for instance the lack of diesel powered small vehicles in the US, the rest of the world loves them but if you ask an American about diesel cars they'll recall the loud, smelly, slow Mercedes Benz models from the 70s (which I happen to think are pretty cool). I have no idea if those things are true, I know we have a member who has one and likes it and his experience is invaluable around here; but those rumors and tales, whether there was any basis to them at all, for all I know it was the oil companies whispering things around the docks, have probably scared off more builders and buyers than they encouraged. I do know from many years ago the founder of Solomon made a lot of outlandish claims and generally wasn't the guy you'd want to listen to when it came to electric motors but he's since left the company. I'm not claiming to know the story, really I guess I'm asking if anyone here knows any more than the dock side chatter I've gotten up to this point, some internet scuttlebutt is better than some dock scuttlebutt isn't it?
In general I'd rather make modest claims and surprise people than make outlandish claims and disappoint, but I'm no salesman.
I'm sure the Hunter guys followed all of that with interest and I'll add that to the list of things to ask them if I head over there.
In general I'd rather make modest claims and surprise people than make outlandish claims and disappoint, but I'm no salesman.
I'm sure the Hunter guys followed all of that with interest and I'll add that to the list of things to ask them if I head over there.
About the Hunter 27e, I think that the Hunter 27 is a reasonable modern production boat, though not my cup of tea. Using Elco's "drop-in" diesel replacement should be pretty straightforward. I give Hunter a big thumbs up for putting the option out there, even if they haven't built one yet (does anybody know?). I've heard that Catalina out here on the west coast is discussing electric options too.
They aren't really my style either but they'll sell more of those 27es than probably every other electric sailboat model combined up to this point. Really I'm surprised Catalina didn't get there first, they're usually more of the leader in this relationship, there could be all kinds of business dynamics going on; Catalina could be waiting to see how Hunter does, Catalina may not have been able to get the motors in the quantities they needed but Hunter could with a smaller production run, the President of Elco may be sleeping with the purchasing agent over at Hunter, who knows. Beneteau would have been my second guess but they had their electric outing in Lagoon, I'd like to think they have a blockbuster system up their sleeve but really the innovation potential in electric drives for boats is pretty low. The current tech is pretty much maxed out, the motors and controllers are super efficient, its just batteries that hold everything back, if the battery technology would show up then we'd all be off to the races, until then we're just hoping the wind doesn't quit. There's also the R&D costs involved, the margins on small boats is already pretty thin and you can guess there aren't a lot of people buying those entry level yachts these days, I'm sure Hunter is taking a chance but for better or worse they do seem to 'innovate' (i.e. do weird things) more than Catalina, such as the B&R rig, or those round cockpits they were using back in the late 90s.
I'll move any more thoughts about the Hunter to its own thread.
Good call.
David
David
converting my 1964 Cheoy Lee Bermuda 30 ketch
Fair winds,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA> Respectfully, the EPA methodology isn't as foolproof as a single number can> of use power....
> explain. Electric cars, unless they are being charged from a known renewable
> source, such as wind, solar, biomass, or hydro, do have emissions associated
> with their use, but determining those emissions is a case-by-case situation
> starting from their charging outlet and ending up at the mine or the well
> where the fuel originates. I have no doubt that electric cars, when compared
> to conventional cars, use less energy to drive around, but I think its more
> from their owners attention to weight, driving habits, and design of the
> vehicle rather than something inherent in using grid power instead of point
>
>
> I would question whether there is anything here that's going to trickle down to the
> rest of us. I mean, they'll probably build what, ten of these total? The
> systems aren't completely specified but I would guess the components are all
> off-the-shelf items (at least as much as they can be in boats) rather than
> representing a break through in motors, controllers, batteries, or gearing.
> There won't be enough to bring down costs on the components, and the system
> isn't one that would scale down to the more pedestrian boats discussed
> around here.
>> Can we talk about how great that new Hunter 27e is? I drive by the plant all
> the time, if the group would like to put together some questions I'm sure I
> could make an appointment to go and talk to the designers and see some being
> built (if they're in production yet.)
>
> David
>
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