On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Steve Dolan <sdolan@scannersllc.com> wrote:
Steve, I think I speak for the whole group when I say we're happy to have you here and you may very well be the most knowledge person available anywhere on these systems (probably more so than the engineers since they haven't had the same field experience), that 410 is certainly a very big boat and an electric drive is an ambitious undertaking.
The manual trans is a good analogy, and it always seemed to me that the choice of charter service was a bold move, I mean, they must have know how those systems were going to be beat to hell! They probably got more use in a season than they would have in ten years in private hands. Still, I reiterate my concern from before, that kind of exposure and that kind of testing was bound to turn people off of these systems, maybe enthusiastic private owners would have been a better option for the long-term sales of these systems. That's all speculation of course, they may have tried private owners who wouldn't bite, they may have made a deal of some sort with the charter companies.
Agreed, the retrofit systems most of us are installing are adequate for the sorts of 25-35 foot boats they're going into but once you get much larger the batteries just get out of hand and the availability of motors, controllers, gear boxes, and the like all become more difficult. Something as large as those big cats really do need a complicated system if electricity is involved and pretty much require a gen-set. I can't help but thinking the problem is expectations, with an electric set up the user knows there will be compromises with speed and range, so he accepts them. If one were willing to make the very same compromises and install a pair of diesels of more like 20hp than the 50hp that is the usual and accept the very same compromise I wonder if they could get away with a much simpler system and better fuel economy if it was used in the same way as an electric would have been.
Given your experience, could you describe your electric system, hybrid or otherwise for a cat like your 410 or something similar? I know a few decades ago there was a lot of talk about hydraulic drive for cats, using a single engine to drive a pair of hydraulic motors to move the boat would, the efficiencies of hydraulics are pretty good these days, comparable to a hybrid electric system? I know hydraulics are pretty 'industrial' and I'm sure that's a turn off for a lot of people. The only think I'd like less than a diesel spill in the boat is hydraulic fluid.
David
I'm not knowledgeable on the "up stream" power costs but I haven't heard anything about Nuclear Power production and its efficiency so since I have one just up the street in Calvert County Maryland I may have to run by (I always wanted to visit it anyway) and see if they have any numbers.
Ideological issues aside, nuclear is an excellent option these days for power generation. I don't know about your local plant which is without a doubt not the latest and greatest but still, if you're charging from that source you can be pretty sure there aren't any particulate or carbon equivalent emission problems.
The electric power from my local utility is confirmed to be more than 20% supplied by renewable sources. The largest coal powered plant within 300 miles was decommisioned in 2005. The bulk of our local power generation is from natural gas, so I would say that the electricity in my area is considerably cleaner than power from IC engines. In our area, electricity is not used much for heating anything, water, cooking and area heating is usually natural gas because it is more efficient (cheaper) overall, it just happens to be cleaner too.----------------------------------------------------------
Moving on to the trickle down process, I would use the Solomon/Lagoon joint venture as an example. The handful of charter catamarans that were put into service provided enough feedback from regular users, that Solomon re-engineered the systems that they sell to people like you or me. Those charter cats were pulled from service and "new and improved" versions were released later. (I believe that one of the early Lagoons is owned by someone in this group). The real world experience gained from less than a dozen of these large boats has influenced many later ventures, I would bet that the Hunter engineers are very aware of what worked there and what didn't.
Yup it's me, the Lagoon 410 owner. The last one of 3 built as a test bed for the later 420's that SOME were placed into charter .The first 410 was also placed into charter for about 5 years buy the original owner.
Steve, I think I speak for the whole group when I say we're happy to have you here and you may very well be the most knowledge person available anywhere on these systems (probably more so than the engineers since they haven't had the same field experience), that 410 is certainly a very big boat and an electric drive is an ambitious undertaking.
Let's say you own a 5 speed manual car and you give it to a friend for the day that has never driven a 5 speed. What are the chances that the trans is going to feel some pain over that time? Most know how much monitoring has to go on with an Electric Boat to maintain the system in peak performance and longevity of the Batteries. In its infancy the systems were not meant for that kind of abuse and they were abused. I don't care how much you think you know, its taken me about a year now to feel comfortable with the system and know what's going on. Nether Lagoon or Solomons provided wiring diagrams and I just don't have a warm fuzzy feeling unless I have a set. The boats were pulled from "service" for several reasons. In the charter business down there the majority of renters were not sailing but powering from island to island. They run A/C 24/7 and everything else they could. As with any boat system this complicated they had glitches, mostly at first with the software for the genset/ charging routines I believe. Battery life was shortened do to abuse which then creates more problems with the charging system trying to keep up. IMO this type of system should never have been put into charter to start with.
The manual trans is a good analogy, and it always seemed to me that the choice of charter service was a bold move, I mean, they must have know how those systems were going to be beat to hell! They probably got more use in a season than they would have in ten years in private hands. Still, I reiterate my concern from before, that kind of exposure and that kind of testing was bound to turn people off of these systems, maybe enthusiastic private owners would have been a better option for the long-term sales of these systems. That's all speculation of course, they may have tried private owners who wouldn't bite, they may have made a deal of some sort with the charter companies.
There are a few major differences between the 410 and 420 systems.
1. The Solomons system wasn't used in the 420's!
2. The Solomons system was pretty much a non computer system. The genset was manually started and shut down on the original system. One original 410 has a new genset with the Auto run and it seems to be working now (a cooling issue corrected). You monitor the state of charge and go from there on the 410.
3. The Solomons system is based on 144V system where the 420 was a 72V system.
4. Though I've never physically seen the 420 system I'm pretty sure the hardware is different. Different controllers and motors. Something a lot of people don't know is the Solomons motors are actually 2 motors connected together with 2 controllers per side. In my case I have 4 motors and 4 controllers. If I loose one of the "halves" or one controller I can still run on the other 1/2 at 50% output and throttle back to 25% on the other side.
Ok the reason why most don't run on this particular system is the cost. I bought my boat at about the cost of a standard ICE boat. I putter around the Chesapeake Bay at this time and have no more grand plans than the East Coast and hopefully the Caribbean in a few years. 410E #1 is heading for South America in a few months. 410E #2 completed a trip up the East Coast with a new owner this summer mostly in the ICW on a genset (power) do to inexperience with the sailing part of the boat and all the new systems and is planning to head to the Caribbean next Spring. I'm planning the Delmarva Peninsula next year then up to Boston and down to Myrtle Beach the following year. From there who knows.
As for my costs for fuel I filled the tanks with 40g at the start of the second year but don't know the mileage and used the boat about 60 days on the water or how "full" the tanks were. Considering the enjoyment I am quite pleased with this cost. Maintenance has been much simpler than my dock mates with ICE systems. Additional costs have been under $3k but that includes system upgrades such as the PakTrakr and a controller that was bad which now gives me a rebuilt spare. I'm budgeting around $5k a year for batteries down the road. This is a big boat and a big system. In most cases the majority of the Electric boats on this site are much smaller and most aren't planning for trips over a few weeks of traveling in blue water.
I just love the Lagoon cats, the French charter type cats are given a hard time by the speed freaks, but that's not my MO so I think they're great. My question though is that mainsail, its way up there! Have you found any trouble setting, dousing, sheeting, or generally getting way up on the cabin to mess with the boom or sail? The other question I see raised a lot is the helm placement, any trouble with visibility?
----------------------------------------------------------About the Hunter 27e, I think that the Hunter 27 is a reasonable modern production boat, though not my cup of tea. Using Elco's "drop-in" diesel replacement should be pretty straightforward. I give Hunter a big thumbs up for putting the option out there, even if they haven't built one yet (does anybody know?). I've heard that Catalina out here on the west coast is discussing electric options too.I believe that Beneteau is also testing an Electric system built by Dave Tether, the original owner of Solomons and now working with Nigel Calder. There are several very large cats with Electric Drive Systems (Hybrid) that are on the water at this time.
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That's interesting. Nigel Calder's books are invaluable for any boat owner. His latest projects I've read about have been real space-ship type electric systems for the entire boat, they seem a little over the top to me, but I'm glad someone is into this stuff in boats, I bet the results when they're all done are going to be amazing.
Just a point on Hybrid systems. Once you get to a certain size boat and plan on a long distance or extended cruise you have to have a hybrid system. I realize most here are not interested in gensets and the like but if you're planning on any long distance sailing you got to have a backup to the batteries. I also believe most understand this and realize pure electric isn't smart under those conditions at this time.
Agreed, the retrofit systems most of us are installing are adequate for the sorts of 25-35 foot boats they're going into but once you get much larger the batteries just get out of hand and the availability of motors, controllers, gear boxes, and the like all become more difficult. Something as large as those big cats really do need a complicated system if electricity is involved and pretty much require a gen-set. I can't help but thinking the problem is expectations, with an electric set up the user knows there will be compromises with speed and range, so he accepts them. If one were willing to make the very same compromises and install a pair of diesels of more like 20hp than the 50hp that is the usual and accept the very same compromise I wonder if they could get away with a much simpler system and better fuel economy if it was used in the same way as an electric would have been.
Given your experience, could you describe your electric system, hybrid or otherwise for a cat like your 410 or something similar? I know a few decades ago there was a lot of talk about hydraulic drive for cats, using a single engine to drive a pair of hydraulic motors to move the boat would, the efficiencies of hydraulics are pretty good these days, comparable to a hybrid electric system? I know hydraulics are pretty 'industrial' and I'm sure that's a turn off for a lot of people. The only think I'd like less than a diesel spill in the boat is hydraulic fluid.
David
Steve in Solomons MD
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