Hi, John, you have a good point regarding my comment re prices causing
popularity. I did not factor that in.
-------John Green says, "The popularity of electric will increase
naturally as the cost of not having electric goes up."-----
I wanted to enlarge at the time, but it has the danger of becoming a
political rather than practical discussion.
But, as I say, you have a good point that everything goes up, however,
comparatively, basic electric, (as opposed to artificially expensive
setups that I personally believe are designed to protect the auto
servicing industry) is so much cheaper to manufacture, that the cost
remains lower in percentage terms, and hopefully nearer to affordable.
Boat drives follow and/or lead auto developments.
You have made a point indirectly also, and that is that the product has
to stand on its own, just as Mr Benz's did.
Right now, there are basic electric plug-in vehicles that cost a few
thousand dollars new. But they are not in use in the "First World".
Right now also, many "First World" households require, as in have a
need, only for short range for one of the vehicles that is run by the
household. The people would be delighted to buy a new vehicle for about
5 grand, that uses a few cents of fuel a day.
I am not advocating that a miracle happen, and the blocking of low cost,
plug-in vehicles (followed by boats with similar systems) by politics
stop. It would create financial chaos by collapsing the auto service
industry. Those older second vehicles make a lot of employment in the
servicing and repair industry.
But in the long run, every hobbyist who converts a small car to
electric, or a boat to electric, causes an increase in acceptance.
Having said that, it has been stated many times on this group that each
situation might require different solutions. Somone docked on the inland
waterway might need more battery power than someone closer to a cruising
ground. It is very personal due to limitations.
But, limitations opposing ICE are increasing, as well, both regarding
pollution and running cost.
On your own boat, you are probably looking at turnkey system cost. When
marketing a product, there is a tendency to err on the safe side, to
allow claims to be valid. So, things might be 'better' than the
satisfactory minimum. Certainly commercially available setups are nice.
This protects the public, as well as ensuring continuance of business,
as the R & D costs are about the same, no doubt, for a 100 watt motor
that fails to satisfy, as it is for a 10 kw motor that works well.
As for me, I want the Atomic 4 gone, together with the stink and fire
risk, as well as space.
I want to flick a switch to move around to hook up to a dock or mooring.
And I am happy to use an ICE outboard if I get the need to for safety
reasons.
So, for me, electric wins as the second means of propulsion after sails,
provided I carry an ICE backup.
And I want to do it all without the wife whining about my spending as
much as I whine about hers, so it has to come in under 500 bucks. It is
doable. But I do not expect to compete with a commercially developed
installation.
As for being green, I am currently looking across Halifax Harbour at the
smokestacks of the Tufts Cove generating station, where probably more
toxicity belches out in 5 seconds, than a small boat could create in a
lifetime. But despite that, if I have a choice, I will err towards
green.
Re the possible 'cultists', we all have the right not to join! They
might be the glue that holds the group together.
An essential part of my future intentions are to have ICE in a combo
with electric, I would be stupid not to, I have to learn to sail, and
have higher risks than someone experienced. So, they don't put me off, I
just gather what useful info I can, and am a bit more wary of claims
from sources that have 'too much' enthusiasm.
And then I do whatever I want and am able to do, snags and errors
included.
John
1b. Re: re ICE versus Electric
Posted by: "John B." jkbjr@verizon.net old75scamp
Date: Tue Jun 7, 2011 9:24 pm ((PDT))
FWIW
Recently there was a lot of discussion about unrealistic claims about
electric drives
giving newcomers false information and ultimately discouraging them from
purchasing
or keeping electric drive systems. While this may tick off some of the
most
avid
electric proponents on this forum, I think the almost cult like
allegiance
to everything
electric and an open disdain for anything ICE turns off more people than
misrepresented
performance claims.
I sincerely doubt Mr. Benz called over Mr. Mercedes and said, "Hey check
this out. This
thing burns gas and can be put in a carriage to carry people. We'll put
the
horse people
out of business and the best part is, in a hundred years, the polar ice
cap
will melt and
the people won't be able to breathe the air". It's much more likely
that
Fred Farmer said
to his wife, "Wife. If we bought one of them trucks from Henry Ford, we
could take our
crops into the city and make more money than we make selling at the
Grange."
Or
the mayor of Podunk, Nebraska said to the town council, "If we had one
of
those new fangled fire
engines we probably would have gotten out to Fred Farmer's place before
it
burned to
the ground and if we had one of those motorized ambulances his wife
might
have made
it to the hospital before she died." Or Wilbur said to Orville, "You
know
we may just have
something here if we use this engine instead of the big rubber band."
Build an electric vehicle that the average person can afford to
purchase,
that will
perform as well as the base model Ford, Honda Chevy, Mazda etc. etc. and
people will
consider it as a viable option to the standard ICE powered vehicle.
Tell
people that it
only gets 70 to 100 miles on a charge, that it takes three to six hours
to
charge it, that
you have to have a special charging station and oh by the way it's going
to
cost $45K to
$70K and you will have people continuing to buy standard ICE powered
vehicles. The same
thing applies to boats. Develop an electric system that is as cheap and
dependable as the
current crop of ICEs and people will buy it. But tell people that they
have
to monitor the
charging rates of the batteries or that the batteries can give off
corrosive
gases or you can
only run for an hour at full throttle, or that you need a generator to
motor
sail etc. etc. and
people will opt for the turn the key, start the motor and go ICE option
nearly every time.
John Green says, "The popularity of electric will increase naturally as
the
cost of not
having electric goes up." Think about that for a minute. Right now,
the
industrialized
world runs on fossil fuel. Every time the cost of fuel goes up, the
cost of
everything else
goes up too. Food is more expensive, heating and cooling your home is
more
expensive,
every petroleum based product from pharmaceuticals to plastics becomes
more
expensive. Unfortunately most peoples income does not go up in relation
to
the oil market
so they are squeezed into rationing the income they have. If people
can't
afford the fossil
fuel how are they supposed to afford the cost of the electric conversion
of
their car, their
house or their boat? Driving the cost of fossil fuel up does not
advance
the performance
or reduce the cost of electric vehicle propulsion, it just makes the ICE
systems more
expensive to operate and reduces the number of people that can afford
either
one.
I have a 1977 O'Day 27 with an Atomic 4 inboard and a Honda 9.9 as a
backup
when
the 30 year old motor acts up. I'd love to lose the inboard and
outboard
and go with
electric drive but frankly I can't justify it either practically or
financially. To me, it's not the
cost of fuel and maintenance it's the cost of the electric system. At
20 to
30 gallons of
gas per season there is no way I can justify the change even if the cost
of
gas quadrupled.
Of course if the cost of gas quadrupled I would have to move my boat
closer
to home
because I couldn't afford the round trip to Chesapeake Bay. Income
priorities, food,
shelter (heat and air), clothes ... boat.
With that being said, I sincerely hope someone, maybe someone here,
comes up
with the
breakthrough idea that creates the electric equivalent of the Model T
Ford.
Not only will
he or she become exceedingly rich (I still think making a profit is a
good
thing) but he or
she will completely transform transportation as we know it.
John Bortner
O'Day 27 "Circe"
--
http://www.fastmail.fm - Email service worth paying for. Try it for free
No comments:
Post a Comment