T-Pain Is On A Boat: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Batteries, General reply note

Man good responses here. I wonder however why no real info on how to take
proper care of lead acid batteries. To keep the bank on trickle charging is
the best way to keep the battery from developing sulfide crystals. But while on
a continual charge the plate gets plated with the antimony that is in the
battery to make stronger the plate so it will hold up over time.

It is this plating process that makes a fully charged battery unable to
release the power stored in it. This is much the same as an alu-air battery
having issues with oxidation that reduce the transfer of electrons during the
chemical process.

Although there are carbon lead acid batteries that have been developed that
reduce the problem with this antimony plating issue, as well as carbon
slurries that are reported to do the same. These products don't seem to
trickle down to consumers.

But after discussion about these products and the proper care of Lead Acid
batteries no suggestions for battery care that consider both problems with
Lead Acid have come to light.

Some studies declare that adding a carbon slurry will more than double the
life of a common Lead Acid battery. Japanese patents show laboratory testing
that document this. One can make their own slurry with how tos found on the
net. But the problem is many find the answer whether right or wrong to much
work to try on the old bank. I find myself guilty of spending money rather than
trying a little experiment to see for myself. I should take the effort even if
the cost of such an effort is much higher for someone off grid than someone on
grid.

Kevin Pemberton

On Wednesday, October 01, 2014 05:30:53 AM you wrote:
> Hi Scotty and others;
>
>
> Part of the difference is higher frequency, and note "pulse charge" --
> different from a "drag the amps out and see what happens" test. There are
> also different testers, mine is the "drag out" type -- the one at the office
> didn't seem to do that, but I was in a hurry so will ask next time I go
> there. Probably costs a bunch, not Harbor Freight stuff. Time in use is a
> better test in my opinion, as I said before, just like an oil change, tune
> up, or tires. A cost of owning a battery powered anything.
>
>
> Cal
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: V1opps
> Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2014 8:32 AM
> To: cal
> Subject: Re: Batteries, reply note
>
>
> Hum maybe I have a bad battery, but the voltage on all of them test good
> And u say it's bad to put a load tester on them? I don't have a load tester
> but maybe can borrow one?
> Is desulftion have to be done with a 6v or 12v desulfator?
> I have only seen 12v desulfators. Never seen a 6v desulfator. So I guess a
> 12 v desulfator can be used on a 6 v battery
> From what I understand the desulftaters use a hight frequency hi voltage
> pulse to desulfate anyhow
> Thx
> Scotty
>
> > On Sep 30, 2014, at 18:04, "cal" <h20dragon@centurytel.net> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Scotty;
> >
> > Batteries - of superior quality -- last longer -- even when not used.
> > That is part of what you pay for, and get as a bonus. The long term
> > charger, if ordered along with your own charging charger, work together to
> > keep batteries at optimum strength long term. When the system as a whole
> > is done, I advise a second charger that kept my battery pack good for over
> > 7 years. I did not then have to trade off the batteries as often, just
> > watch the use level, and all but one tested usable if not new, when I
> > traded in the pack last month. Remember ONE bad cell stops a pack till
> > all are fixed. However, I don't warranty the pack more than the factory
> > does, with proper maintenance a new fresh pack may last say 7 to 10 years
> > if cared for, making it way cheaper to own than off the shelf brands of
> > lower quality. Or you can wait, pay maybe 40% more down the road, or
> > some more even from me, as prices rise normally each year around January.
> >
> > Desulfinating a pack, testing with a load meter also takes a lot from the
> > pack, how could it not, as it is severe cleaning and/or an active load on
> > old cells. I do not desulfate packs any more, as not consistent, and may
> > damage some individual cells -- that burn out in needed emergencies. I
> > have what I use and add that to the battery order, by optional request, it
> > would be tuned to match the system or if not doable I just don't order it
> > with the battery pack. I have several, so no brand is offered, just that
> > it will be for that pack -- or not offered if not possible at that time.
> >
> > I treat batteries as if my life depended on getting to shore and back home
> > safely, without hassle -- some don't care and have to save a buck, I don't
> > see it that way. When I had an insurance and securities agency, I sold
> > insurance to a young man, "for his wife, if something happened" he
> > cancelled when she wasn't around three days later. No fault, slick ice --
> > but he ran into a tree skiing a year later, and the wife finds he left her
> > and the kids to go home to her aging parents, also foreclosed on the house
> > payments.
> >
> > Have a good day, ------ Cal
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message----- From: V1opps
> > Sent: Monday, September 29, 2014 9:51 PM
> > To: cal
> > Subject: Re: Batteries, reply one
> >
> > Yes it seem hard to put a lot of money into something that I can only use
> > half a year and they get worse sitting around the other half a year
> > But my pack is getting old at 7 years and hard to make it up the hills, so
> > not very useful especially in the winter
> > Do you know if it is safe to put a desulfator directly on a 6 volt battery
> > vs trying to desulfate them in pairs 12v? Last time I desulfated I did it
> > in pairs but actually the pack seemed weaker after I desulfated them, ?
> > Well congrates on making it to 75 hope you around for a bit more
> > Cheers
> > Scotty
> >
> >> On Sep 30, 2014, at 6:55, "cal" <h20dragon@centurytel.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> Thanks scotty, let me know if I can help others you might know on these.
> >> If and when, I decide to fully retire, that's all folks --- at 76 next
> >> Feb, nothing is a big deal.
> >>
> >> Battery power is provided by lead, or lithium, and other materials- in
> >> acid- sealed or not. Different construction of course, but one thing is
> >> constant in lead acid ( reasonable cost ) batteries. More weight equals
> >> more power, lighter weight less power. Your choice as I mentioned, less
> >> power for less $$ - or the other way, no magic there. lead ion costs
> >> way more, your choice to spend more and get deeper recycling or not, I
> >> have different types. However I don't use them, as all batteries lose
> >> power over time, so I plan on a replace schedule.
> >>
> >> Thanks, Cal
> >>
> >> -----Original Message----- From: V1opps
> >> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2014 2:43 PM
> >> To: cal
> >> Subject: Re: Batteries, reply one
> >>
> >> Ok that sounds goo but won't happen for awhile, I still overseas for a
> >> mother month and head back over seat just after thanksgiving , so really
> >> in no big hurry at this moment
> >> Yea. I'm sure prices will go up in winter, but I'm in no big hurry
> >>
> >> I have heard some of these sealed batteries have less resistance and
> >> preform better and last longer?
> >> I have seen them in 12v only.
> >> They seem to weigh just about the same as 1 6v wet battery so eve if they
> >> saya 235 amps on them don't see how they can last as long as two 6 v
> >> batteries that weigh almost 2x as much?
> >> Guess carrying around less lead may make the car preform better ( a good
> >> reason to go to li oin batt)
> >> Cheers
> >> Scotty
> >>
> >>> On Sep 29, 2014, at 23:08, "cal" <h20dragon@centurytel.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hey Scotty, I think this will be a good buy on the ones for you, as a
> >>> package price on the best and longest lasting batteries. Got prices
> >>> this morning, and assumed your old ones in trade, since you can pick the
> >>> new pack up at the DEKA warehouse in Portland. That way, no sales tax
> >>> either. There are three levels for you to choose from, as you know
> >>> probably best use is not to go too much over the 50 to 60 % discharge
> >>> rate. No charger change on these either. Cash or deposit from you goes
> >>> to my special "buyer only" account at Chase bank. All money stays
> >>> there till you sign for delivery from my DEKA manager. Prices are as
> >>> below, rounded up a nickel or two, don't need about .95 in every price
> >>> on a list. Prices are not that stable for the season, as winter is
> >>> coming so if you want these I have prices as of this week, maybe longer
> >>> but I don't control that.
> >>>
> >>> Also these prices are confidential, just to boat guys or your friends,
> >>> too much bragging might get this cancelled at the distribution point
> >>> level, thanks a lot on that point. I can't let anybody know whose
> >>> giving out prices on whichever brand, please note this, until I get a
> >>> bit more business in place. Talking it up, by letting this be known it
> >>> is a direct sale, could shoot this down for all of us. Please, only
> >>> discrete inquiries by buyers referral at this actual sales point. I
> >>> can't afford to have stores bitching to the factory for sure. Stores
> >>> have shipping cost, sales tax, stocking and employee cost that I don't
> >>> have.
> >>>
> >>> Series 10 215 AH ---- $ 119. List is $ 212.
> >>>
> >>> series 15 230 AH ---- $ 134. List is $ 234.
> >>>
> >>> Series 25 235 AH ----- $ 146. List is $ 251.
> >>>
> >>> That peels almost all the profit off for your pack price. I assumed the
> >>> trade in of all old batteries. These new ones are in stock and fresh --
> >>> so easy Portland delivery. You can arrange delivery through me if you
> >>> need for that part to be a specific later date.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Thanks Scotty, ----------- Cal
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message----- From: V1opps
> >>> Sent: Friday, September 26, 2014 3:47 PM
> >>> To: cal
> >>> Subject: Re: Batteries, reply one
> >>>
> >>> I maybe able to get to pdx and pick them up sometime
> >>> Won't be back for awhile anyhow
> >>> Let me t
> >>> Know the price when u get a chance
> >>>
> >>> Scotty
> >>>
> >>>> On Sep 26, 2014, at 8:29, "cal" <h20dragon@centurytel.net> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Hey, Scotty;
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi Scotty;
> >>>>
> >>>> Haven't heard from Seattle yet. They want to talk with my guys, so
> >>>> who knows. Two alternates, I can get the DEKA's out of Portland and I
> >>>> think you can pick them up if I have them paid for in advance. Those
> >>>> are the best. I can get the interstates here in Eugene, but they
> >>>> might not get together with Seattle, and I can try Portland for that
> >>>> too. Number three, since you save the WA tax, I can get them for you
> >>>> shipped to you as sealed batteries, at added cost of course -- but a
> >>>> pallet and shipping is not cheap. I will check tomorrow and try to
> >>>> get some prices, by the way -- not doing this for folks who need one or
> >>>> two batteries.
> >>>>
> >>>> I think this is best for about four or more at a time, so you have a
> >>>> good number to work with as that evens out the freight, and overall
> >>>> expense. I know most of this wholesale costs stuff, they would prefer
> >>>> to do it on a cash basis, to lower their card expenses. That makes it
> >>>> possible to lower the overall cost and still do a profit, could that
> >>>> work for you?? All done at delivery at the store of course. You don't
> >>>> know me, I don't expect to have you send anything to me first. Yes, I
> >>>> expect to make a small profit from this, no surprise there -- but I
> >>>> hope to make some friends in other boating areas at the same time.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Time to close shop for today, _____ Cal
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: V1opps
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2014 7:14 AM
> >>>> To: cal
> >>>> Subject: Re: Batteries, reply one
> >>>>
> >>>> Ok great thanks
> >>>> Isn't there a provision that for electric cars there is no tax??
> >>>>
> >>>> Scotty
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Sep 25, 2014, at 3:27, "cal" <h20dragon@centurytel.net> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Looks like I can sell through the Seattle store, ---- if the store
> >>>>> agrees tomorrow. I can arrange for you to get those batteries at a
> >>>>> good price break. A new stock number, but better than the old ones
> >>>>> with updated parts. Looks like 232 amp hours now, and they can take
> >>>>> the cores without a problem, or extra $$ shipping. I will have a
> >>>>> price once they agree to what we do down here, you will pay the tax of
> >>>>> course.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks, ----- Cal
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message----- From: V1opps
> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 8:52 AM
> >>>>> To: cal
> >>>>> Subject: Re: Batteries, reply one
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm not in town now, but would be in the Seattle area
> >>>>> I think, if I remember right they are interstate u2200??????
> >>>>> I think they are about 8 years old. They still work but hard to get up
> >>>>> some hills
> >>>>> They are in an 1981 ford escort...jet industries car. 108v pack I
> >>>>> think
> >>>>> Guess lithium would be best but not sure of cost and then need bms
> >>>>> and charger etc??
> >>>>> If I can find a cheaper alternative that's even better, some say SAMs
> >>>>> club are the cheapest way
> >>>>> Thx
> >>>>> Where u located at?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Scotty
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Sep 23, 2014, at 18:22, "cal" <h20dragon@centurytel.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Yes, I have access to, and can sell you batteries at an excellent
> >>>>>> price, usually about what the stores pay to get them. I do sales
> >>>>>> for Both Deka, and Interstate, plus usually have some special deals
> >>>>>> on specific batteries as they are available. I can always beat the
> >>>>>> prices, but often I can find some that fit the use better, run times
> >>>>>> desired or more, using your input data.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Simple replacement first off --- What size do you have, and how much
> >>>>>> have you been quoted for a pack where you are now ??
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Do you want more amps or maybe larger size, if you have space, or a
> >>>>>> simple replacement ?? I have slightly taller ones that have a
> >>>>>> common foot print, as good choices for you.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Does brand make a difference, or is time the first line, like 3 to 4
> >>>>>> years over 5 to 7 years, or longer, a choice of dollars over service
> >>>>>> time ??
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Where are you located for delivery purposes ?? I can ship all sizes
> >>>>>> by weight, only sealed batteries by common means.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If you need a new frame or fully rewired with new terminals, that can
> >>>>>> happen, and makes shipping more cost efficient, as the batteries are
> >>>>>> secure in that frame for way easier packaging.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> With some data, we can find what fits best for the car, and your
> >>>>>> needs. Thanks, ---------- Cal Drake
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: V1opps
> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 3:33 AM
> >>>>>> To: h20dragon@centurytel.net
> >>>>>> Subject: Batteries
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi I have an electric car that now uses about 18 6v interstate
> >>>>>> batteries that I am thinking about getting replaced, do you have any
> >>>>>> good deals on them or suggest other sources or going to lion?
> >>>>>> Thank you
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Scotty