T-Pain Is On A Boat: Re: [Electric Boats] scenario 34 foot chb fishing with 3hp 160 dc

Or,

The gear ratio on the sprockets is about about 3:1 and there is a 2:1 reduction on V-drive for a total gear reduction of about 6:1. I determined this was necessary by looking at the torque rating on the diesel and the electric motor and then calculating the required reduction to make them comparative on the shaft. This will give you a good first order approximation and then you can fine tune it from there. I actually did wind up decreasing the size of the sprocket on the motor to squeek just a little more out of it by changing the ratio from about 6.3:1 down to 5.9:1 and it did load the motor up a little more but the difference was negligable. The prop shaft is 1 1/4" and it has always turned freely by hand. I'm embarrased to say that I can't tell you what the spec on my prop is, it's just what came with the boat.

Carter

From: Orest Iwaszko <orestyko@hotmail.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 1:47 AM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] scenario 34 foot chb fishing with 3hp 160 dc

Looked into everyones advice . Also Archemedes blogspot I see your installation . your gear ratio appears about 2 : 1 . What ratio is working for you . how big is your shaft and prop ?. Did you have any trouble turning it ? Figuring out the optimum gear ratio will require some trial and error. regards Or

On 2012-12-13, at 5:05 PM, Carter Quillen wrote:

James

There is no doubt I would have preferred to use a synchronous belt but the chain was just too easy. Not only was it much easier and less expensive to find the sprockets, (you can get #40 chain stuff at most hardware stores), it was also much, much simpler to fit a 1/4" thick sprocket in my drive train. But the primary reason really was that I could mount the motor and cut the chain to fit. Not try and get the mount in just the right place for a specific belt. I might have been able to use an idler pully but the geometry of the engine room was very difficult for that as well and the chain was just too easy so I followed the path of least resistance.

As for the chain breaking, the hull is 1 1/2" thick steel reinforced concrete so I don't think I have to worry about the chain punching a hole in it. Acceleration forces are very low, unlike with a motorcycle sometimes, and I'm only transmitting about 7 hp anyway so the system is not very loaded considering the strength of #40 chain. I've got a couple hundred hours on the system now and the chain has not even begun to stretch. When it does, I'll replace it for about 10 bucks long before it gets around to breaking. It is a bit noiser than a belt would be but the system is still much quieter than the diesel and overall it runs very smooth so the chain was a very reasonable compromise.

As for the voltage issue, I stand by my contention that lower voltages are inherently safer. I'm not saying you shouldn't ever use 220V, (or more), I'm just saying you have to be a lot more careful when you do. Higher voltages certainly have some advantages, namely you can run smaller wire and typically get more torque out of your motors, but the possibility of creating a potentially deadly situation if you don't do everything just right is going to be a lot greater when working with high voltages, especially in a salty marine environment with a lot of vibration. For the do-it-yourselfer who may, or may not, have the required knowledge and experience to get everything just right the first time, the chances of making a potentially fatal mistake is going to be much lower working with 48V,(or less), than it will be working with 220V, even at just 16 amps, since it only takes something like 50 miliamps to kill you. My point was that  lower voltages are far more forgiving. That was the reason I made the choice for a 48V system on my boat.

Carter

From: James Sizemore <james@deny.org>
To: "electricboats@yahoogroups.com" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: "electricboats@yahoogroups.com" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 6:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] scenario 34 foot chb fishing with 3hp 160 dc

Using 220 volt battery would be more dangerous, but the 110 volt 30 amp and 220 volt 16 amp stuff

he is talking about using is pretty standard stuff on most boats. If he follows ABYC standard for his

install he will be as safe as any other boat. The controller looks to be single phase to me so a

typical inverter such as this would do the trick when not running of the generator:

http://www.adaptelec.com/powerbright-erp350012-12v-dc-to-220v-ac-power-inverter-3500-watt-capacity-p-90.html?zenid=sjljiuemb4s8m3qcql2hj2pme7

The only experimental part of his project will be as you noted the parallel hybrid connection to the

Shaft. I see you used a chain that would scare me. I have had chains break on me while riding

motorcycles and they easy put holes in steal crank cases. A broken or loose chain could put a

good size hole in fiberglass. My motor uses a trimming belts and I am happy with the noise levels.

On Dec 13, 2012, at 12:27 PM, Carter Quillen <twowheelinguy@yahoo.com> wrote:

I wouldn't count on being able to leave the electric motor hooked up without some kind of clutch in the system. The accelleration on startup against the inertial resistance of the motor coming up to speed can put some extreme forces on the system. It can easily break a chain and at best will make an aweful racket if you use a synchronous drive belt. And that's if it doesn't simply rip your motor out by the roots.

Also make sure your particular transmission is good to free wheel in neutral. Some are, some aren't. I have a velvet drive and it works fine, but some transmission will burn up in short order if allowed to free wheel.

You can see the setup we have on the Arc at  www.archemedesproject.blogspot.com/2012/03/wiring-electric-motor.html. I'm still looking for an appropriate clutch that would make things easier but for now we take the chain on and off when going from diesel to electric and back. Which is not that bad since I leave the boat in electric mode most of the time and only switch back to diesel in emergencies. The chain comes off a lot faster than it goes on.

I have to agree with the guy that suggested getting an old golf cart. All that conversion from 12V to 220V to 160V is going to eat you alive in parasitic conversion losses.Could be as much as 30% of your power and that's a lot.  I'm also a little leary about high voltage in a marine environment. Vibration and salt water are not good companions for high voltage systems. It can be done safely but you need be extra careful in your construcition. Lots of people have done the golf cart thing with good result and anything 48V or less is inherently a lot safer on a boat from an electrical standpoint.

From: Orest Iwaszko <orestyko@hotmail.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Cc: orestst@comcast.net
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] scenario 34 foot chb fishing with 3hp 160 dc

Thanks Matt, ( poignant questions) , Yes the purpose of this project is just for slow trolling economically or manoeuvring while jigging .

Charlie at KB motor drives was one of a kind , knew what I was up to right off the bat and know all the information below. He sells controllers motors and KNOWS HIS STUFF. !!!

This is the link to my controller

    http://www.kbelectronics.com/Variable_Speed_DC_Drives/DC_Drives_NEMA_4X.htm

Charlie c.joseph@kbelectronics.net   sells electrical controllers / motors etc. He gave me all this information without hesitation , understood my application right off the bat . So hard to find an individual like this.

He explained controller accepts both 50 or 60 HZ . It doesn't care if its modified or square wave from the inverter.     Eureka is that the controller accepts 220 AC coughing up 3 Hp or 110 coughing up 1 Hp

another awesome feature is that I can leave the drive pulley on constantly while running the main diesel and it wont burn up the controller because the controller is regenerative .

Id like to acknowledge Matt and others for steering me towards the necessary enlightenment . Any thoughts about a pulley system from the motor to the 1.5 inch prop shaft ?

On 2012-12-13, at 4:47 AM, matt elder wrote: Thanky

Interesting looking motor and controller! Are you going to use this strictly as a parallel drive motor? It would supplement your existing drive? If that is the plan you may be onto something. You just need to clarify what type of current the unit requires, ie: 50 or 60 cycles and if it will run on a modified square wave vs full sine wave. I'll see if I can google up some more info.
Is the plan to use this as a maneuvering / slow trolling motor on the boat featured on your facebook page? If so, it would sure make fishing a much more pleasurable experience without the noise and fumes from the bigger dino drive.

mattelderca

From: Orest Iwaszko <orestyko@hotmail.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 1:50:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] scenario 34 foot chb fishing with 3hp 160 dc

Hi great idea to show the equipment This is the only way I know how to send a link so

here is a link to my facebook page with pictures of the 160 volt DC Leeson motor catalogue 108502-00
108 inch pounds of torque 14 amps max .

14 amps x 160 lolts = 2240 watts.

link of motor and controller http://www.facebook.com/AlberniCharters rpm

regards Or

On 2012-12-12, at 7:26 PM, James Sizemore wrote:

Oree, how about a link to the motor and controller you are planning on using? That might help the conversation along a bit.

On Dec 12, 2012, at 8:43 PM, oree zko <orestyko@hotmail.com> wrote:

Ty Matt the motor is 160 volt DC
Power from the generator will send 220 AC to the variable speed forward and reverse controller which will also change the voltage from 220AC to 12 volt DC , so what I don't have yet is a 220 inverter . Dies this sound better? Orest
Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-12-12, at 11:13 AM, "James Sizemore" <james@deny.org> wrote:

I deffentally prefer my motor to run off 48volt DC then 220 AC, but mine is a primary drive and a serial hybrid. He wants a parallel hybrid so I think it is pretty much a wash either way for him.

If he goes AC he has to buy an inverter to convert 12volt DC to AC, if he uses a DC motor/controller he will need a hefty high amp charger to convert his generators AC to 12 volt DC and he will have issues finding a 12 volt 3/5 hp dc controller.

But we still don't even know if he is thinking of using a 3 phase or single phase AC motor/control so any comparisons are super speculative at this point.

On Dec 12, 2012, at 6:25 AM, matt elder <mattelderca@yahoo.ca> wrote:

Efficiencies mainly, and relying on a 3000 watt inverter to push near 2500 watts as your primary propulsion. Drawing 200 or so amps from the bats won't be good either.
It just seems all a bit off. I know, it's just a discussion. Personally I think he'd be better off using the 600 bucks to purchase a golf cart and
use it's components (speed controller, reversing contactor, motor, etc.) to build a drive. Rewire the house batteries to 36 volt and use a converter to feed the house.

I just think, and it's my personal opinion, that moving the voltages up is a big waste of energy.

mattelderca

From: James Sizemore <james@deny.org>
To: "electricboats@yahoogroups.com" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: "mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2012 4:03:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] scenario 34 foot chb fishing with 3hp 160 dc

The math is pretty simple hp to watts is 1:746 so 3hp = 2238 watts. So me telling him 3kw already had some fluff built in. Do i have enough fluff depends on the motor controller. But most inverters can surge past their max pretty far for a second or two. So I think 3kw is a good fit.

Now for ohms law 2238 / 12 = 186 amp draw from his battery at max speed. So he said he had 6 golf cart batteries so assuming he has around a 200 AH pack. So he should get an hour out of it. If he wanted to take his house bank to empty and travel at full electric speed.

A couple of hours at half throttle.

What math did you have an issue with?

On Dec 11, 2012, at 2:20 PM, matt elder <mattelderca@yahoo.ca> wrote:

I think some of the math may be way off here.
3 HP is more like 6000 watts of inverter power.
I doubt a 3000 watt inverter will run this motor, even if it did, the current it would draw at 12 volts is near 250 amps.
Then you will need to know if this controller will run on a modified square wave as most cheap inverters put out.
You may need a full sinewave inverter which will cost you. And then you may need to see if it will run at 50 or 60 cycles.
Just a few thoughts,

mattelderca

From: James Sizemore <james@deny.org>
To: "electricboats@yahoogroups.com" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2012 1:56:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] scenario 34 foot chb fishing with 3hp 160 dc

The inverter is what will pull from the batteries and 12 volt to 220 volt single phase inverters are quite common in Europe, you never said what phase the motor kit your looking at needed, if it needs a 2 phase inverter those are less common and less cheap, but still exist.

On Dec 11, 2012, at 12:47 PM, Orest Iwaszko <orestyko@hotmail.com> wrote:

Thanks for the response James , This deal comes with a variable speed controller. Yes Ill have to find a 220 volt 3000 watt inverter. Does 160 volt 3 hp sound doable eventually from batteries ?

On 2012-12-11, at 10:37 AM, James Sizemore wrote:

You will need a 3kw inverter. And the cheaper induction motors are normally on/off full speed so it might be hard to use in close quarters, unless you drop some euro's on a variable speed controller. But sound like an interesting project, for only a thousand or so expense.

On Dec 11, 2012, at 12:03 AM, Orest Iwaszko <orestyko@hotmail.com> wrote:

Im back , Been drooling in my dreams about the magic you are creating . Ive come across a 3 hp 160 volt dc motor with a controller for $ 600. The controller needs 220 volts. input.
My boat is 34 feet and I only want to use this system for up to 3mph tops. Mostly 2.5 mph or less.
My boat has a Northern Lights 5 kw genset with both 110 and 220. So Im able to run off the gernerator. and would aquire a 220 volt inverter.
The dc motor will turn my 1.5 inch shaft with 20 inch prop at around 400 rpm for fishing
dc motor spins up to 1750 so at 900 rpm motor with a 3 /1 reduction my shaft should turn 300 rpm .
Im thinking to spin the shaft with a pully belt system .
I have 6 golf cart batteries used at 12 volts for the house system and for this project and would like to add solar panels and wind generator eventually .

Is this perusable in your opinion.
Orest 34 foot CHB