i am definitely going to be working with "local" suppliers assuming that turns out to be possible... i went the -Alibaba connection route because with a google search it popped up a unit that appeared to be exactly what i needed..... now i was perfectly willing to read specs carefully, all fine print and try to find others who had used the same unit but i couldn't even get past the very first hurdle of discovering what they charged for the unit... the highest prefab price i have been given is about 14k (local) and the lowest price i have seen would amount to about $3500.... the $3500 is built completely wrong and i wouldn't settle for it but i also felt that i didn't need to go for the 14k unit.... perhaps with the names i have now been given i can now find a good supplier....
i understand the chemistry, the general parameters of operation, various pack construction methodologies. potential problems that produce inferior cells/packs/BMSs but i did not know the specifics of where to go to find reliable/knowledgeable people/suppliers... but as i say with the kind direction of this group that situation is beginning to be remedied...
i guess my intent was simply to report what was happening to a newbie who ventured into the realms of "alibaba" for equipment.... at no time has having done so proven to be helpful
kinda have to wonder what the point of alibaba is being as they seem to go so far our of their way NOT to sell through it....
From: Eric <ewdysar@yahoo.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 6:56 PM
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: trying to get prices from Alibaba contact (a rant)
Hi Michael,
I appreciate your perseverance, but why are you trying to go directly to an offshore manufacturer? If you want a new TV, do you call Sony or do you go to Best Buy or Walmart? Time for a new car, do you visit your local dealers or start planning a trip to import your own from Europe (or wherever)? The idiom "penny-wise and pound-foolish" comes to mind.
I can understand why someone might be looking at a complete system like MasterVolt, having only one vendor generally delivers better support. But that type of customer support comes at a price. However, I don't think that the type of vendor that you're describing will provide any type of support, they might not even deliver a working product at all. Worst of all, you'll have virtually no recourse.
There are a number of reputable EV supply vendors that sell components like batteries, BMS, contactors, chargers, instrumentation, etc. locally. They'll provide technical info to help get you up and running and replace faulty product, at least as far as the stuff that they sold you. I don't see that their margins are all that great and the customer and technical support is worth far more than the markup on their products.
Carrying this one step further, the drive vendors on this list will pull even more components into a single package and provide even better support by helping design a solution that fits your needs. These vendors also have even more incentive to work through your conversion issues, they know that a happy customer will bring more business.
I understand the desire to do things on a limted budget, but at some point you'll be sacrificing quality, reliability and safety. I didn't really want to spend as much as I did on my cabling or the $80 for my class T master fuse and fuse block, but to try to skimp there is foolish. I could have bought 11kWh of FLA (8 Trojan T-105) for 1/3 what my 8kWh of Thundersky LiFePO4 cells, but my boat would be 300 lbs heavier and my range at 4kts would be 18nm instead of 24nm.
I know that you've already shopped around and you know what Li batteries cost delivered to your door. If you can't afford them, then use AGM. If you can't afford AGM, use flooded. Each cost savings comes with a performance compromise. It would be awesome if the best performance came from the cheapest option, but that rarely ever happens. Honestly, my conversion cost about twice what I thought it would when I first started investigating converting my boat to electric, and I definately got my money's worth. I believe that I could have converted my boat for half what I spent, but I don't think that it would be nearly as efficient or reliable. When I sail, I don't really think about my drive, certainly much less than I used to think about my diesel.
I can't tell, but you might be stuck in "analysis paralysis". At this rate, your project may never leave the drawing board. You're getting a lot of good advice from this group, but it looks like you're still trying to reinvent the wheel. You might want to stop and check your priorities, do you want to work on your boat or do you want to import stuff from other countries. You may not have time for both.....
Fair winds,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA
PS. I don't remember what type of boat you're converting. Can you remind me?
--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Mccomb <mccomb.michael@...> wrote:
>
> I've been trying to get an answer from a Chinese company that I contacted through Alibaba. The question was pretty simple being as I found a photo, description and specs for what I thought a suitable product on one of the Alibaba web pages.
>
> I asked for the price of the unit displayed which was a 48v, 200ah LiFePO4 battery pack which they claimed would make a great EV power pack. I asked about the functionality of the included BMS in terms of high and low cutoff at the cell level and if they used passive or active or none at all balancing.
>
> So far the optimum-china.com folks have asked five different sets of questions and I have patiently responded all five times but to this point they have not provided even the hint of a price. Their latest with no price give was that perhaps I was ordering a larger battery pack than I needed?
>
> REALLY a waste of time talking to these folks.
>
> Being as all manufacturing is being moved off shore I will probably have to try again at some pont but this particular group is no firmly on my "S" list. They simply seem incapable of answering the very strait forward question "how much?".
>
I appreciate your perseverance, but why are you trying to go directly to an offshore manufacturer? If you want a new TV, do you call Sony or do you go to Best Buy or Walmart? Time for a new car, do you visit your local dealers or start planning a trip to import your own from Europe (or wherever)? The idiom "penny-wise and pound-foolish" comes to mind.
I can understand why someone might be looking at a complete system like MasterVolt, having only one vendor generally delivers better support. But that type of customer support comes at a price. However, I don't think that the type of vendor that you're describing will provide any type of support, they might not even deliver a working product at all. Worst of all, you'll have virtually no recourse.
There are a number of reputable EV supply vendors that sell components like batteries, BMS, contactors, chargers, instrumentation, etc. locally. They'll provide technical info to help get you up and running and replace faulty product, at least as far as the stuff that they sold you. I don't see that their margins are all that great and the customer and technical support is worth far more than the markup on their products.
Carrying this one step further, the drive vendors on this list will pull even more components into a single package and provide even better support by helping design a solution that fits your needs. These vendors also have even more incentive to work through your conversion issues, they know that a happy customer will bring more business.
I understand the desire to do things on a limted budget, but at some point you'll be sacrificing quality, reliability and safety. I didn't really want to spend as much as I did on my cabling or the $80 for my class T master fuse and fuse block, but to try to skimp there is foolish. I could have bought 11kWh of FLA (8 Trojan T-105) for 1/3 what my 8kWh of Thundersky LiFePO4 cells, but my boat would be 300 lbs heavier and my range at 4kts would be 18nm instead of 24nm.
I know that you've already shopped around and you know what Li batteries cost delivered to your door. If you can't afford them, then use AGM. If you can't afford AGM, use flooded. Each cost savings comes with a performance compromise. It would be awesome if the best performance came from the cheapest option, but that rarely ever happens. Honestly, my conversion cost about twice what I thought it would when I first started investigating converting my boat to electric, and I definately got my money's worth. I believe that I could have converted my boat for half what I spent, but I don't think that it would be nearly as efficient or reliable. When I sail, I don't really think about my drive, certainly much less than I used to think about my diesel.
I can't tell, but you might be stuck in "analysis paralysis". At this rate, your project may never leave the drawing board. You're getting a lot of good advice from this group, but it looks like you're still trying to reinvent the wheel. You might want to stop and check your priorities, do you want to work on your boat or do you want to import stuff from other countries. You may not have time for both.....
Fair winds,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA
PS. I don't remember what type of boat you're converting. Can you remind me?
--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Mccomb <mccomb.michael@...> wrote:
>
> I've been trying to get an answer from a Chinese company that I contacted through Alibaba. The question was pretty simple being as I found a photo, description and specs for what I thought a suitable product on one of the Alibaba web pages.
>
> I asked for the price of the unit displayed which was a 48v, 200ah LiFePO4 battery pack which they claimed would make a great EV power pack. I asked about the functionality of the included BMS in terms of high and low cutoff at the cell level and if they used passive or active or none at all balancing.
>
> So far the optimum-china.com folks have asked five different sets of questions and I have patiently responded all five times but to this point they have not provided even the hint of a price. Their latest with no price give was that perhaps I was ordering a larger battery pack than I needed?
>
> REALLY a waste of time talking to these folks.
>
> Being as all manufacturing is being moved off shore I will probably have to try again at some pont but this particular group is no firmly on my "S" list. They simply seem incapable of answering the very strait forward question "how much?".
>
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