T-Pain Is On A Boat: Re: [Electric Boats] 5KW or 10 KW

James,

thanks for responding with your insight. I answered your questions below in red.

From: Electroprop <james@electroprop.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, April 4, 2014 1:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] 5KW or 10 KW

Hi Chris,

All of these motors are current limited.

On a 48 volt system you are pretty maxed out at 2,200 rpm and may not be able to sustain that rpm when the batteries lose voltage when low. If you went to 72 volts, these motors could produce 50% more power and would be operating at 50% more speed.

I intentionally avoided 72 VDC. Also, as you mentioned in a earlier post, higher gear reductions are less efficient.

The 125 amps sounds about right for the 0913 motor before it gets too hot. What temperature do you reach at this power level after how many minutes of operation? It is generally accepted that you have reached continuous temperature after one hour of continuous operation.

I have never ran more than a few minuteds at full throttle.

Conventional shaft packing can be very inefficient if the adjustment is too tight. We always recommend going to a dripless shaft seal.

I plan to convert next year when I pull the boat. Anyone ever thought about the sealed, oil filled cutless bearing. I think it's made by Evolution Marine. I'm thinking this might be even more efficient than a dripless shaft seal.

You have additional belt losses related to having two motors with two sets of belts.

My two motors only use one belt.

The best thing to do is to purchase an infrared thermometer and go around your system looking for hot spots, which you can then optimize. The dripless packing gland won't appear hot because it is in cooled by seawater.

You could replace your propeller with one that has more pitch than diameter, cupping and a high blade area ratio. This is probably the best place to start to get an increase in efficiency. I plan to change the prop when I pull the boat next year. Are there prop manufacutures out there that really understand how to spec out the best prop for an electric drive?

Most ratings for supplied motors are based on intermittent ratings. What is the true continuous rating of the system? Sounds like 12 KW is about right for this setup. How are the motors controlled? Do they each have a separate signal to the controller? You may be able to balance those signals. Sevcon controllers utilize CANBUS which, if hooked up, would have each motor running at the exact same rpm.

Initially I had 2 throttles mechanically linked with one going to each controller. I found it tough to balance the loads and ended up skewing the throttle calibration in one of the controllers to make up for the difference in outputs between the 2 throttles. Now, I just parallel one throttle output to both controllers. This works better without the need to skew the throttle calibration. I guess I don't understand what you about each motor running at the same RPM. Since they are connected by a synchronous belt aren't they by default running at the same RPM? I do experience one motor taking more load at full throttle and believe this is due to my single belt system and one motor having higher belt tension due to being the one closest to the sprocket that drives the prop. Or, maybe the one controller just sees a higher command at full throttle than the other.

Remember that it isn't just what is consumed as energy that counts, it is how efficiently it is delivered to the propeller shaft, that gives you the final results.

Regards,

James

James Lambden
The Electric Propeller Company
625C East Haley Street,
Santa Barbara, CA
93103

805 455 8444

james@electroprop.com

www.electroprop.com

On Mar 30, 2014, at 1:56 PM, Chris Hudson wrote:

James,

I did some testing on my boat today and here's some data for the formula you're working on:

Morgan Out Island 41

27,000 lbs.

34' LWL

2X ME0913 motors at 48 VDC

Belt reduction ratio 3.0:1

Propellor 18X17, I think.

Prop shaft at slight down angle with conventional shaft packing.

Top speed 5.5 Kts. by GPS

2055 motor RPM

685 propellor RPM

41.5 VAC to each motor

125 Amps AC to each motor

11.5-12.0 KW total, hard to be exact because at full throttle with my setup one motor grabs more load than the other, so I have to back off slightly to balance the load across the motors. I feel that the net KW is the same either way though.

As you can see, my ratio takes me to the max continuous amp rating of each motor at full throttle. In your opinion, is my ratio correct? 12KW from a "20 KW" system, am I being all I can be? Initially my ratio was 2.2:1.0 and the motor amps were too high at cruise speed to keep a handle on heat and efficiency.

Group, please feel free to chime in about my system with any thoughts, opinions, etc.

Regards,

Chris

Sent from myPhone

On Mar 28, 2014, at 20:34, Electroprop <james@electroprop.com> wrote:

The idea of 1 KW per ton was based on an average of boats in the size range that we have been converting, namely 25 to 35 footers between 5 and 7 tons.

We also noticed that in this range of boat we were obtaining 90% of hull speed at that power level.

Upon closer examination it appears for the boats that we know of, to fit into the model of 1 KW achieving 90% of hull speed, the heavier the boat was, the higher the power requirement. This is largely due to the exponential increase in cross sectional size and wetted surface area.

At this point we are looking at a model that starts at .7 KW per ton at 3 short tons of displacement and adding .1 KW for each additional short ton.

This equates to:

3 tons @.7 KW / ton

4 tons @ .8 KW / ton

5 tons @ .9 KW / ton

6 tons @ 1 KW / ton and so on until

20 tons @ 2.4 KW / ton.

We may find that the curve is even steeper than this. So far I only have data up to 9 tons.   Anyone that can verify this model would greatly help.

This is also based on the conditions that I outlined in a previous post to this group, the main conditions being an efficient drivetrain including propeller, shaft seal and alignment. We should also further stipulate for the model to work that the propeller would not be at a speed greater than 800 rpm at full speed. We could even figure out a derating for higher speed propellers like the ones your boat came with.

What is your electric power requirement at 90% of hull speed in KW? Let us know your displacement too. If your boat cannot achieve 90% of hull speed, please let us know its highest speed and KW draw. We can still fit it into the model.

Because with larger boats the 90% of hull speed gets higher than what a serial hybrid can reasonably make, we don't consider any speeds above 7 knots to be realistic for electric drives (for displacement boats) and keep expectations of higher speeds limited.

One has to remember that if the boat is geared for a higher speed, it will be much less efficient at lower speeds than a boat that is geared for lower speeds. And efficiency which translates into range is the largest determinant of this technology so there must be a limit on speed to keep it all realistic.

Catamarans are completely different so anyone out there that would like to chip in their cat data, we can start building a model for cats too.

Cheers,

James

James Lambden
The Electric Propeller Company
625C East Haley Street,
Santa Barbara, CA
93103

805 455 8444

james@electroprop.com

http://www.electroprop.com/

On Mar 27, 2014, at 3:07 AM, fitloose wrote:

Hi Bob/Eric,

I think Bob makes some good points, not least of which is safety. However, I'd like to add more fuel for thought, whilst still keeping safety in mind.

One reason we've adopted the 1kW/long ton light ship displacement,90% 'rule' (for EP sailing boats) is because most will not have an actual tow test result, so in this sense the rule becomes conservative. If in doubt do a tow test.

I like your swim analogy Bob. I'm a Masters sprinter and whilst I could a few years back swim 3,300m in the hour, I prefer the 100m sprint or rather 50m at my age - so I see air cooled EP as more anaerobic than aerobic when thinking of short term high power and/or higher boat speeds; in the sense that EP is better at short high power bursts and diesel at longer higher power continuous. When it comes to low power aerobic, EP wins every time. My point is, stick to what your system, be it body or boat, is designed for. If you don't it will come at a price.

If your e-repower is 1/3rd of the hp of the original diesel that will likely be the minimum. i.e. 0.75kW/ton light ship and assumes the original diesel was sized properly and as a sailing auxiliary in the first place. So my original 10hp diesel is happy being replaced by a 3.33hp (2.5kW) continuous (1hr) rated EP. If you want more, say up to 1.25kW/ton you are moving into the region of the low revving/heavy duty cycle diesel that long term cruiser RTW sailors use, to punch waves and attain hull speed. Having said that, 0kW/ton can also be a rule. It works for James Baldwin (Atomvoyages.com) and the Pardeys!

When designing and choosing my system, and like Bob, I had to decide on cruise and top speeds first. So, over some thousands of miles my average boat speed with my 26' LOA/21.25LWL boat has been 4 Knots and that is the overall, all time average speed of motoring and sailing. In that sense this is the speed my boat likes to do and the original diesel and the EP replacement match that. Going faster costs more in time and money and means less time under sail.

In fact one thing I haven't seen mentioned much is that dreaded thing called money and why we choose EP in the first place. If I had gone with 1kW/ton I'd be into more batteries, higher voltages, complexity and cost. So my 0.75kW loaded (0.83kW/ton light ship) sums work for me.

Another reason is my boat is a double ender and the engine room space is low volume so the form factor of the system is important. In other words I couldn't get a motor, gearbox and batteries in, even if choosing epicyclic over helical gearing. I could get a geared belt drive in but then, like a gearbox system, I'd have to choose between being a 36V or 48V system over 24V.

On the basis that the biggest AH rating battery is best in engineering (resistance) and cost terms i.e 2x260AH 8Ds is better/cheaper for me than a combination of 4 x 130s. So, due to available volume it came down to what voltage did I want to run my system at? If I wanted to hit the 1kW/ton I'd have needed a 36V rated system and what truly is the overall gain of going from an 85% to 90% hull speed, going to give me for that?

Note as my controller accepts 24V to 48V I could simply have decided only to use 30 Volts of a 36V or even a 48V bank or string and program my controller so my throttle only reaches the needed voltage. There are pros and cons here that are outside the scope of this mail.e.g. max shaft speeds for a given prop.

So to my way of thinking it comes down to the criteria you set in the first place, bearing in mind the max power you desire/need. Reducing from the 1kW to 0.75kw and direct drive fitted my rules. Mine were:

1) Cost/Simplicity/System efficiency (less batteries, smaller chargers, higher efficiency figures when compared to geared etc)
2) Quietest system possible (direct drive no gearing)
3) Clean
4) Green
5) Modular expandable system

Looking at the above we come out with the following additional 'rules' or results for my needs.

1) Sufficient power/range (with back up smallest hand held Honda genny - 1kW for me) and the least expensive cost of ownership over time. Greener overall?
2) Use the minimum number of AGM batteries with the highest AH for a series string. If the string goes down only two batteries to replace for 24v, 3 for 36v etc.. An option to add a 2 x 130AH reserve and inverter bank in the future for my 24V system. Note - now done.
3) Maximise Solar especially if your boat lives on a mooring and also it will likely work out cheaper/greener in the long run when compared to more batteries.
4) Minimise charger costs (24V generally cheaper than voltages above that)
5) Modular Expandable. When my main EP batteries die I can go to a 36 or 38 V string if I need that extra 5 or 6 volts to push the boat to a higher top speed and re-use my old 24V chargers/inverter for plenty of domestic power on a separate house string.

I hope the above gives some insight into the other 'rules' that may govern ones choices. It's not all about power and whilst I certainly mean no offence to our dear American cousins; you do have a history of over weight, over powered vehicles and boats, whilst neglecting fuel and system efficiencies. I say that after having lived in 50mph California for awhile when younger; and being appalled at the fuel use/consumption and cheap give away price of the petrol/gas beasts, compared to our UK 70mph rules that let us use less gas for higher speeds due to less weight with a realistic, if more expensive price of our fuel in the UK.

My how times change and Ca. now leads us once again to newer, greener, quieter tech. Well done America! Now all you have to do is get rid of those beautiful sounding stonking V8 cars/trucks and those heavy big V twin motorcycles ;)

Looking forward to a quieter greener electric world.

Yours - a reforming petrol head.

John.

http://john.rushworth.com/