Hi Gabe, and welcome ..
I have some comments, that may be less positive than you would wish for, but hopefully will allow you a bit more realism based on the current costs and ease of making boats.
Here I am referring to an ocean crossing (category A in the EU) boat.
1. Making a boat is not hard.
It involves a lot of fiddly detail work, and for good results you need to have professional level skills in plumbing, carpentry, marine electrics (see ABEC codes), plumbing,
Preferably is also knowledge in hydraulics, systems installation and systems design.
Metals fabrication experienec and tools will make the results look and work better.
Not knowing any of the above is not an obstacle.
The skills are readily learned, and the results achieved are about equivalent to the effort put into it.
Examples:
1.
Ie having an industrial hydraulics guy show you how to design, install, join, lines, valves, accumulators and pumps will take a few days, and of you follow given samples for quality, similar quality is readily achievable.
Some practice, attention to detail, the right tools, and you can do just as good a job as anyone else.
Caveat:
Lack of good tools, not seeing how it is meant to be done, not using the appropriate materials, and trying to do it from a diagram for teh first time will not result in such high quality results.
2. Having a marine electrician show you how to do wiring, will allow you to plan and install wiring appropriately for boats, using the right wire and termination practices.
Soldering for example is prohibited, and specific wiring is mandated. There are good reasons for this, and the reasons apply only to boats.
3. Doing plumbing for waste water, black and gray water tanks, house loads, etc. is not all that hard.
Nevertheless it is a skilled trade, and proper ventilation, valving, and design is very important, and boats are not like houses. They tilt, and the system most emphatically sometimes needs special considerations because of this.
And so on...
Access to industrial tools will shorten build times by appox 70%, as will experience, by that same 70%.
Some components (hull) can by bought as cnc cut kits, that will save 70-80% of the time required to make that piece.
The platnetsolar solar boat you refer to is a hugely expensive, impractical, stunt.
It is not particularly seaworthy, but this is easily overcome, and was, by using weather routing and choosing, with care, when and where to go.
The boat cost 5M$+, and has extremely narrow, uncomfortable, impractical hulls.
It is in no way appropriate or suitable for use as an example of a liveboard or cruising yacht.
(-Cost, Systems, carrying ability, ultimate survivability, fitness for purpose, etc.)
The atlantic has been crossed, many times, in rowboats.
This does not make them appropriate to the occasion, nor will they survive a hard storm, which are not infrequent (nor all that frequent, in truth).
Boats MUST have (liability) insurance, these days, or you will be refused entrance to many, or most, or all marinas.
Insurance will only be given to you, if you conform to certain standards.
The cheap plans to not generally contemplate insurance, nor international norms etc. as the world has mostly changed.
Getting the insurance is not trivial, but it is not all that hard or expensive. Nevertheless, a lot of problems will be in store, unless certaing hazards are avoided.
For example: in the US, insuring a wood hull is very hard.
A self built one likewise.
This does not make it impossible, but it does make you have less choices, and less options. Many marinas in the US will refuse entry unless you have liability insurance.
Likewise, tanks for storing your wastewaters are legally mandated, these days (new builds). You can and will have your boat impounded in most of the world if you do not have these tanks.
France, Spain, the EU for example. Galapagos. and so on..
Sailboats as a category are simple, not all that hard to build, and very safe.
They can easily survive (even strong) storms, and go anywhere in the world.
Sailing is not all that hard, and a weeks course can give you and excellent grounding in the basics.
Building a *traditional sailboat* is very slow work, unless you are exectionally gifted and skilled, and tooled.
It is also expensive.
A sailboat, generally costs:
30% hull
70% systems
Both in work hours and in money.
Example:
A hull, say in plywood, that you think will cost 10.000$, will cost about 60-80.000$ when ready.
Referring to 26-33 ft sailboat, traditional, in plywood and epoxy.
Could be strip planked, cold molded, or anything else, all below apply in different ratios.
This is why:
The plywood is 10.000. The sealants (marine epoxy glue, fittings, caulks, primers, insulation, paints) will cost about 10.000.
The hatches, portlights, skylights, locks, hinges will be 5000-10.000.
Ancillarys will be about 20% to 40% of hull material, as you usually will not buy them in bulk, although you should, for savings of 50% in total costs.
So your ready hull will cost about 30-35.000$.
Systems will cost about 60.000 or double the ready made hull.
Winches, sheets, tackle, rigging, masts, spars, engines, shafts, through hulls, seals, generators, wiring, switches, control panels, helm, tanks, plumbing, rigging, sails and so on.
It takes about 8-10.000 work hours to make a 10 m or 33 ft sailboat, for a typical effort.
For minimalist approaches, and or for an experienced guys doing his second or tenth boat, maybe half, when they have industrial tools ready at hand.
Winches, hydraulilc lifting, welders, lathes, presses, pnematic glue guns, compressors, power, lighting, scaffolding and so on.
The above costs can be reduced by about 50% if you can find and use second hand equipment.
A lot of second hand stuff is perfcetly usable, but some is not.
Knowing the difference or being able to make a component can make a vast difference.
For example, a metalworker can easily make a worm gear and screw to drive an anchor winch, that was broken and is worthless.
(Making it in 316L steel is about 1-2 days, from scratch, and at most 200$ in materials.)
Otherwise, buy a 3000€ piece of kit.
This difference is 30:1 or 40:1 and will apply throughout the build.
Solar as a systems-generation power is not all that expensive, any more, unless you buy ready made marine packages.
This means solar is well suited for use to keep your VHF, refrigeration and instrument powered, and some PC use.
Some small use for radar and entertainment is possible, generally with bigger installations on bigger boats.
This is not common, as bigger boats are not normally designed to be energy efficient due to market reasons. Technically, it is not hard nor too expensive.
Solar is not yet a primary-propulsion power source, you will not be able to make a small boat powered by solar, and motor long distances in the ocean.
The limiting factor is energy storage density, and the state of the art is improving about 40%/year/year.
At approx. 5 years from now, the sota will have achieved a level for primary propulsion in coastal craft, at current systems pricing, and about 2-4 years later for long-distance cruising.
It is practically certaing, that within approx. 10 years, solar will become a mainstream, affordable, candidate for primary propulsion in ocean crossing yachts.
The problems are partly techincal and partly cost-related, and costs are dropping at the 40% year/year level.
When the cost level is 20% of current, and the energy storage density is about 3-5 times higher per mass, solar and electric propulsion will be better and cheaper than comparable internal combustion technology.
This is not the case today.
The driving factors in above predictions and trends are total system made, economies of scale, and new materials and technologies.
All of these are well funded by hundreds to thousands of firms worldwide, using several billion a year in research, and commonly making large profits (hundreds of millions/yr or more).
The driving factors are off-grid houses, electric vehicles, and electric hand tools, rather than marine applications.
A marine user does not need to know why the battery got better and cheaper, for it to work just as well as one meant for power tools, pcs, cell phones, electric scooters, electric cars, electric forklifts or so on, all moving well over 1 billion $/yr revenue and all growing strongly due to increasing demand and improving technology.
If you want to go sailing, cheap, soon, buy an old sailboat.
They are well available in the US, in abundance, at all price ranges.
Fixing and polishing one is trivial compared to a new build, in time, tools and skills and more marketable later.
Often, you will get all the old legacy systems in working or near working order, and few new appliances will be strictly necessary.
You will absolutely not be able to build, to legal standards, a comparable craft today in the US, for less than twice the cost of used and refurbished.
A 26 ft sailboat can be found for about 2-5.000$ in the US, with working or repairable systems.
Your fix-it budget should be about 2x hull cost (second hand, non-yacht systems), and the results will reflect the investment.
They can also be used as-is, and most new regs do not apply to older boats.
Example:
Ie you can buy one battery to replace the old poor single engine-start battery, for 200$, or a good big battery system good for house loads, navigation and living aboard, wiring, kill switch, isolation transformer.
Component costs about 2000$ (and up).
You choose, based on personal preferences and desires.
Good luck,
Hanermo
On 18.10.2011 7:06, exp30002 wrote:
Hello;
I hope everyone is having a nice day. Let me also talk about that guy who started this thread.OK, so rent. It is not so much the rent. It is what I call the "Huckleberry Finn Syndrome".In Mark Twin's book Tom Sawyer, Tom friend Huckleberry Finn does not live in a house.And Huck Finn is used to it. Even when there is money, he does not feel comfortable in a house.I am getting the Huckleberry Finn Syndrome. I have camped in all the deserts of California,and more. I think it is time for me to enlarge my world. I have not been out on the ocean.I could get an RV, but I sleep outside with no tent. I have been on the top of all the mountains.
So I saw this book: Twenty Small Sailboats that Can Take You Anywhere, or something like that.And I guess these sailboats can sail across the waters a long distance. I guess some sailingexperience is necessary. Weather reports, and reliable equipments.
There is this new thing: the solar panels. And an electric boat with solar panels. Can these solarpanel electric boats sail just a far as sailboats? Apparently: yes http://planetsolar.org/Transatlantic 21 : http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/Swiss_boat_claims_first_solar_Atlantic_crossing.html?cid=5706980
I do not need such a long distance: max to Hawaii from California.
Can a 26' cabin cruiser body type of boat cross a long distance on open water as one of those smallsailboats to take me anywhere? I guess that is the question.
The rest of the words just introduction.
I am pleased to meet all of you.
Sincerely;
Gabe
On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 7:18 PM, Lochadio Who <lochadio@yahoo.com> wrote:
I'm solidly behind the idea of running solely on power generated by sun and wind, I'd love to work out a viable/affordable design where I could harvest power from the tide or the flow of a river while the vessel was anchored at night, but this craft runs in the real world with a real budget and is (hopefully) going places where a shore line will only be ballast.A set of alternators isn't my first choice for generating power, but in beats the alternatives on a 20 foot pontoon boat with only electric motors for propulsion, a limited amount of deck space and nothing but a couple of oversized beer cans and Davy Jones locker below decks.The Briggs and Stratton runs day or night, rain or shine.I'm not trying to make you put one on your boat, or anyone else's. If you don't like it, no problem, don't make one.
The guy that started this thread was looking for options, and I gave him one....this was the guy that wanted to build something that was cheaper then rent remember?Just the slip space for the kind of boats you're talking about probably costs more then he spends on a months rent.I'm sorry if you don't like the idea (actually I'm not, but I defer to everyone else following this.)It is a viable option if you want some cheap back-up power that runs on the same fuel as the Colman lantern and camp stove, could easily be converted to LNG or LPG if that's what you'd prefer to run the domestic systems on, takes up only 2.5 square feet of deck space and it beats the snot out of his plan for "towing a dingy with extra solar panels".
Since you don't get 100% efficiency out of solar panels, does that mean they don't work and we shouldn't use them?Will adding another 80 lb of solar array generate power at night or on a rainy day?Did I somehow miss the section of the user group description that said I was required to be a pretentious twit with the other members?I was under the impression this site was about possibilities.
If you've got a $100 option that generates power in the dark with fuel already available on board and takes up the same deck space as a medium sized beverage cooler, I'd be happy to hear about it.
--
exp30002@gmail.com
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