While we're discussing battery cost, bear in mind that the most expensive up-front solution (LiFepO4) just might turn out to be the least expensive over the life of the battery bank, even including the
additional management/monitoring electronics that are typically installed.
Two caveats:
1. You have to own the boat long enough to have the pack die a natural death to get you money out of the investment (nobody knows how long this is yet, they're too new), or if you sell you have to convince the buyer that the cells still have value.
2. You have to avoid killing the pack prematurely (nobody really knows the best way to treat these cell yet).
-Tom (happily running a lithium bank for over 300 cycles)
--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <ewdysar@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Martin,
>
> I've posted this info to this group before, but here it is again. Please note, Li-Po and LiFePO4 are two types of Lithium batteries. Li-Po batteries are typically more expensive but they have a higher tolerance for extremely high discharge rates. LiFePO4 batteries are available in large formats, are cheaper and are well suited for traction applications in boats. EVs see much higher discharge rates, so the additional expense of Li-Po cells are sometimes justified. Other than that, Li-Po and LiFePO4 seem to be fairly close on energy density and lifespan.
>
> ===================================
> Choosing a battery type for your electric boat conversion can be difficult. Here's some general information that is generally accepted on this board. The product specs from battery vendors don't tell the whole story.
>
> FLA (flooded lead acid) batteries are typically run to about a 60% DoD (depth of discharge). Some people go deeper, but many consider this depth to be a good compromise between energy delivered and maintaining a long life, measured in charge cycles.
>
> AGM (absorbed glass mat) batteries can be discharged to the 70-80% range. I generally consider a 70% discharge for AGM systems. Both FLA and AGM weigh about the same for the same rated capacity.
>
> Lithium Batteries (LiFePO4) can be discharged even deeper, for range estimates I use 80% DoD to keep a small safety reserve. LiFePO4 batteries are about 50% the weight of lead/acid batteries for the same rated capacity.
>
> Then there is a trait called the Peukert Effect, this describes a battery's decreased ability to deliver energy at higher amp loads. I won't go into the math here, but that loss is predictable through Peukert's equations. Brace yourselves; it's going to get technical for a while.
>
> In fact, the concept was known for many years before Peukert was able to quantify the relationship between the load and capacity lost. Here's a link to a page that explains the Peukert Effect is greater detail:
>
> http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/peukert2.html
>
> The content can be a little difficult to work through, but it is correct. There are additional pages that provide validation of their version of the formula, where the results can be verified against the published specs of almost any battery. If you don't want to work through all of the math in the middle of the page, the second to the last paragraph refers to how different battery types have different Peukert's Exponenets and what that can mean.
>
> If you can accept that different batteries can have different Peukert Exponents depending on how they are made, then the following link shows graphically how a different Peukert Exponent affects the available capacity of different batteries. Look about halfway down the page, in the section labeled "The Peukert Effect":
>
> http://www.vonwentzel.net/Battery/00.Glossary/
>
> Finally, while few manufacturers publish their specific Peukert Exponents, some do and some other numbers have been published for common batteries. Peukert Exponents are typically calculated through empirically measured capacity at different loads. Here are a few examples (values closer to 1.0 are better):
>
> Trojan T-105 = 1.25
> US Battery 2200 = 1.20
> Optima 750S = 1.109
> Thundersky LiFePO4 = 1.03
>
> So what does this mean in the real world? Let's pick battery bank size of 10kWh and a constant load of 2500W (52A @ 48V). That will drive most of our boats to somewhere between 4 and 5kts, your results will vary.
>
> The simple math would indicate that there are 4 hours of charge in the bank to 100% DoD, So FLA batteries like T-105s would have 60% of 4 hours or 2.4 hours of usable range. Likewise AGM would be 2.8 hours and Lithium would have 3.2 hours of usable range. But this is where Peukert's effect raises its ugly head.
>
> FLA with PE of 1.25 – 10kWh to 60% DoD at 2500W = 1.60 hours (that's a loss of 33% to Peukert's Effect)
> AGM with PE of 1.1 – 10kWh to 70% DoD at 2500W = 2.38 hours (15% lost to Peukert's Effect)
> LiFePO4 with PE 0f 1.03 – 10kWh to 80% DoD at 2500W = 3.05 hours (less than 5% loss)
>
> You can see that AGM have almost 50% more usable range than T-105s for this size battery bank at this load. Reducing the load (slowing down) reduces the effect and speeding up makes it worse. Even though quality AGM are about twice the cost of T-105s, the extra usable range makes them a very good alternative. Add in the much lower self discharge rate so that constant maintenance charging is not required and they look even better. People also recognize that AGMs seem to last longer in the real world and now the AGMs are cheaper in the long run.
>
> If weight is a concern, then LiFePO4 is the way to go. The high price per Ah can be intimidating, but you can reduce the Ah and achieve the same range, saving money and even more weight. Let's do the math for a battery pack that has a 2.5 hour range at 2500W.
>
> FLA – 14.25kWh to 60% DoD at 2500W = 2.5 hours = 633 lbs, cost about $1500
> AGM – 10.5kWh to 70% DoD at 2500W = 2.5 hours = 520 lbs, cost about $2500
> LiFePO4 – 8.25kWh to 80% DoD at 2500W = 2.5 hours = 200 lbs, cost about $3500
>
> So now the lithiums are only 2.3 times the cost of T-105s but they are less than 1/3 the weight for the same range at this load.
> So for most boaters, I recommend AGMs as a good balance of price to range.
> ========================================
>
> So the bottom line is; it's your money, your boat and you know how you use it. You get to figure out your priorities and pick the storage system that best fits your particular needs and constraints.
>
> Fair winds,
> Eric
> 1964 Bermuda 30 ketch, 5.5kW Propulsion Marine drive, 8 kWh Lithium batteries
> Marina del Rey, CA
>
> --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers <mdemers2005@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I would like to know what is the advantage with Li -po batteries in boats
> > This concept is new to me for boat application
> > Does it give much much more running time?
> >
> > Thanks,Martin
> >
>
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