Thanks Capt. Mike,
Guess we just had some kind of malfunction in the site, lost the site for awhile, along with a post. But in reply to your comment....I'm sure cold air can be a big part of what I'm working on. It puts me in the crakpot zone, but I'm pretty sure there is no 1st or 2nd law violation and that is based on BTUs and WATTs having measureable and comparable quantities.
Latter
Ron
--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Capt. Mike" <biankablog@...> wrote:
>
> Ron
>
> I also encourage you to follow your research on heat transfer. Your propane story has some interesting applications for an electric boat. Refrigeration is often an issue on cruising boats. If the propane powering a generator for charging can also cool an ice box on board in the process that is a win win situation. You could be on to something.
>
> Capt. Mike
> Sent from on board BIANKA
> http://biankablog.blogspot.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Ron" <rlgravel@...>
> Sender: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 19:02:57
> To: <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
> Reply-to: electricboats@...: Re: [Electric Boats] Water Temperature
>
>
>
>
> Capt.Mike,
> Thanks for the words of encouragement, I guess I reacted a little too quickly, but with so many people reading and making post about what everyone is most interested in, that being use of, charging and discharging, and what type of batteries etc. hot exhaust and overheating electronics and motors and so on. I just thought a simple request for water temperatures that different people have around their boats would have produced more than one response, that one response was very good and helpful, the question from Bob goes straight to what I would like to get into and that is, are there possibilities of recovery in what everyone calls waste heat, or can we draw anything positive from the very water that floats a boat?
>
> I have been in this evolution of learning for almost 50 years and for the most part it has been directed at the single goal of a submersible that is self sufficient relating to power transferred from surronding heat. I have grown old and the dream of the submersible is no longer for me a reality, but what I have learned has grown to the point of several fields becoming overlaped in such manor that losses in one system actually become the driving force of another one.
>
> I likely did not make a proper introduction when I signed up to be part of this group, but I guess most people do not.
> I will say a little bit, in the desire of letting everyone have a little insight about why my thoughts and comments are sometimes hard to follow. I have documentation that confirms a strong ADD and OCD personality and finding this late in my life helped me understand why there was much difficulty in the early school years and staying on a steady path throughout my work life. The major part has been machanically related, with a short exposure to the semiconductor fields which led to a little understanding about things that cannot be seen.
>
> This group represents what seems to be the best suited outlet for what I think I have learned. Thoughts are formed based on what has been done and observations of the results that affected anything related to the action.
> An example that goes to the heart of the idea about using propane to draw heat from things around us. Once when working in the roofing field, an event of great learning value took place, we had a tar melting pot (dual axle trailer size) with a quite large burner design, a propane bottle (just filled) about 16" Dia. and 4' tall and standing in full sun, the temperature of the day was 102 F, not long after starting the burner the flame fell just short of going out, a quick look around revealed the entire bottle was covered in a shell of ice which had cut off the heat transfer through the metal. The solution was a quick fix of putting the bottle in the nearby swimming pool and an extension made by cutting the rubber supply line and using a water hose to span the distance. I'm a little embarrassed by the action, but proud that the results were quick, easy and successful. Knowing what, when, and why something is safe is a key to doing things that others would never consider. An almost complete design for a power system has evolved from that event, the reason it is still untested and incomplete, is a fearful respect for propane and the pressures and explosive nature when air is allowed to come into the picture.
> Working alone and underfunded any project will almost for sure fail.
>
> If I make the comment that a propane bottle is thrown overboard and inside that bottle are several mechanical actions that send a few watts of electrical energy back to the batteries in the boat, I hope there might be at least one person that might really want to know why and have the right contacts and resources to prove it right or wrong.
>
> Is there anything a propeller can do that goes beyond just producing thrust only ?
>
> Mention of an air motor may surface and to illustrate the variation in sizes, it might be as small as a pencil drill (used by most dentist) or as large as a 10 HP electric motor.
>
> Guess this is too much and has turned into rambling, but too many years of mental building of that submarine, where even the batteries become structural parts of the shell, a head full of ideas and designs and no likely outlet. The marine enviornment seems best as it offers liquid to liquid heat transfer and actually in some ways has a great gain from weight ( move away from nonproductive dead ballast).
>
> I really have a strong belief in electric, but I also think there is a bright future for lead acid batteries, 150 years of no real change (still in a box) maybe we can move out of the box.
>
> Guess I have dug a pretty deep hole :((
>
> Mike, I looked at your blog and enjoyed what you have done and are doing, best wishes, it is inspirational.
>
> Cheers
> Ron
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Capt. Mike" <biankablog@> wrote:
> >
> > Ron
> >
> > Don't think confuse lack of trsponse for lack of interest. Your thoughts got me interested. So much so that I took my infared thermometer and took some measurements. I measured 114 F on the underside of the solar panel. But, surprisingly I only measured 98 F on the (blAck) side facing the sun. I was expecting a higher temperture. Interesting.
> >
> > Capt. Mike
> > Sent from on board BIANKA
> > http://biankablog.blogspot.com
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "Ron" <rlgravel@>
> > Sender: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2010 18:11:32
> > To: <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
> > Reply-to: electricboats@: Re: [Electric Boats] Water Temperature
> >
> > Bob,
> > I guess the silence is loud and clear, Ned gave an answer that while correct, only confirms that efficency is extremly low and this is based on the use of water at a certain temperature as both the source and sink. The phrase "slow boat to china" comes to mind :)
> >
> > My idea of a waterfall thrugh the keel didn't seem to go very well, but then most questions and answers have been revolving around small amounts of generation or recovery.
> >
> > My thoughts about recovery of waste heat, or preventing overheating, involve the use of liquid propane as a sink (-44 degrees @ 0 psi) and if using a water surface temperature of 70 degrees, pressure will build to 110 psi.
> >
> > Having a temperature delta of -50 > +1200 F is easy to set up and such a wide range will only assist in speed of cycle and not so much about how much energy is taken in.
> > The simple fact is, heat builds pressure and pressure produces work potential and mass flow equates to power.
> >
> > With those comments I'll withdraw the subject and carry on with my work as best I can.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Ron
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Robert D. Wilson" <bob@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Ron,
> > >
> > > One of my concerns has been how to utilize the excess heat generated under
> > > solar panels. Solar panels are very inefficient converting only 20 - 30
> > > percent of the energy falling on them to electricity and the balance is
> > > waste heat. Would love to find some way of capturing that waste heat and
> > > using it to generate more electricity.
> > >
> > > Bob Wilson
> > > Backpacker 38
> > > Building in Richmond, BC
> > >
> > > On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 9:13 AM, Ron <rlgravel@> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I had hoped for a higher figure, but it is what it is :)
> > > > For me the line of thought started in the 60's watching Cousteau and
> > > > thinking about how neat to have a submarine and not need a surface support
> > > > team along with all the expenses and dependence on good weather.
> > > > Lack of funds and a dedication to family has held it to only dreams, but
> > > > along the way (I'm a slow learner) I have picked up thoughts based on what I
> > > > have used (physically and mechanically) in several different lines of work,
> > > > but almost always my focus of thinking was how to save wasted heat or make
> > > > use of it.
> > > > The results of all those years of thinking has led to many possibilities
> > > > about picking up crumbs of wasted energy and recovering mechanically or
> > > > generating small amounts of electricity, this has been the focus of so many
> > > > post by this group (battery charging and regen methods) which all goes to
> > > > one basic word "Heat".
> > > >
> > > > Heat is all around us in many areas and the intensity varies quite a bit
> > > > from the water a boat floats in, to the hot exhaust pipes of an IC engine,
> > > > collecting heat is not a big problem but designing a machine to utilize the
> > > > heat collected, represents a challenge that most people will shy away from
> > > > for many reasons. I think charging batteries can be a 24 hours action and of
> > > > course always better when the sun is shining
> > > >
> > > > Before I go into any depth of conversation, I need to ask if anyone wants
> > > > me to continue or is this a taboo topic ? I will share a few thoughts but I
> > > > generally have a very hard time conveying my thoughts in a manor that is
> > > > easy for others to see and I do have some design work on-going, but have run
> > > > low on enthusiasm.
> > > >
> > > > Ron
> > > >
> > > > --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com <electricboats%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > > Samuel Shallard <sshallard@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Not quite sure where this line of thought started but here goes.
> > > > > I line in ME
> > > > > Surface water temp in the ocean currently varies for 55-65 deg.
> > > > > I winter that will drop to the mid to low 30's. We may get freezing
> > > > > close to land.
> > > > > Water down deeper is 50 degrees.
> > > > > One thing that happens with tides is that on incoming tides the
> > > > > deeper water will upwell around anomolies such as ledge and bring the
> > > > > cold water to the surface.
> > > > > Interestingly if you get offshore into the Gulfstream the water temp
> > > > > jumps into the 70's
> > > > > There are web sites with the information on buoys that giver surface
> > > > > water temps and temps at depth for the gulf of ME and probably most
> > > > > of the US.
> > > > > Most changes in temp in lake water occurs in the top 20 ft. Out lakes
> > > > > vary a lot depending on depth and whether they are spring fed.
> > > > > Groundwater is usually 55-60 degrees so spring fed lakes may stay on
> > > > > the 60's while surface water fed may be up to 80 degrees. Around here
> > > > > they all freeze in the winter.
> > > > > On Aug 6, 2010, at 4:48 PM, Ron wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > In general I think there is an average temperature of surface
> > > > > > water, but I'm wondering what kind of difference there is from warm
> > > > > > to cold represented by the members of this group in their different
> > > > > > locations ?
> > > > > > Also how much of a change with the seasons ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks for any feed back.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ron
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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