T-Pain Is On A Boat: Re: [Electric Boats] pulling the plug...

Mark:

I think the maintenance cost will be higher on the diesel hybrid system if my install is any indication. My EP system is on a 30 foot sailboat but, my only ongoing maintenace cost in four years has been oil changes for my Honda generator. Which are still much cheaper than doing them on my old 27 HP diesel. I did have to do a $50 meter display replacement on my battery monitor but, that was an install issue not because the unit failed. When I had my diesel I would be doing oil and filter changes every 50 hours, changing engine zincs, water pump impeller. That was the basic maintenance which I did myself. Then there were other maintenace costs over the years exhaust elbow replacement, hose replacements. Some of my fellow sailboat owners are now dealing with replacing engine and transmission seals which are now leaking. A head gasket failure is what killed my diesel engine but, I did not have to deal with replacing that because I went to EP. Then their were the winterizing costs (if the boat is laid up for the winter) which with EP are zero.

Capt. Mike

http://biankablog.blogspot.com

From: Mark Lockley <lockleymark1@yahoo.co.uk>
To: "electricboats@yahoogroups.com" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 7:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] pulling the plug...

Good points james - I would also like to add that there are not too many new 40ft boats of any kind on the market these days for under 400k. I work at the moment in a boat building company in China and we just priced a 40ft RIB with very little superstructure and the build costs alone were at minimum of 300K. Any vessel in this range of size will be spending around 100K for engines package as a guide price plus plus plus so the price comes up rather quickly.

I also priced a catamaran hull of 40ft to be built in South America to awlgrip finish bare hull and that alone was 100K with no interior no hardware and no engines etc etc.

lets all remember the price of resins and cloth has increased in the recent years!!

So as you say to be pre buying your milage ahead of the game has a huge advantage - and its all dependant on usage. Im also assuming (anyone please correct me if im wrong) that ongoing maintenance and oil changes etc etc will be more costly thatnsolar hybrid maint ?

PS Just for reference - our yard here uses 90% hardware and machinery from other counties so our pricing structure is only cheaper on labour and basic consumables etc.

Thanks Mark

From: James Sizemore <james@deny.org>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 24 November 2011, 1:40
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] pulling the plug...

Two problems with your assumptions below. First is that a lot of the price difference in the DSE between similar catamarans is in that they use Steyr engines which are not cheap even before you add in the electric option. So you would first need to price one of the normal cats with Steyr diesels to even get a base line for comparison. And account for any other difference in fit and finish.

And the second and more important mis-assumption is that this boat is being purchased with solar cells included. So you are pre-purchessing a large amount of fuel ahead of time, so to make any _honest_ comparison of the price of a boat that includes maybe half or more of all the fuel it will ever use in the purchase price. Is the price of another catamaran and half or more of all the fuel it will ever use! Which would be very dependent on who owns the boat and how they use it. To even get a guess on how good or bad a deal it would be.

Lets take this to the extremes in both directions:

If the owner of a DSE use it as a live aboard and to circumnavigate the globe at low speeds then he would love the price of his boat and would save thousands and thousands of dolors in fuel cost over the 40 year life of the boat. So for this person the price would be cheap even before factoring in what diesel might cost 40 years from now.

If the owner only boat once a month and at very high speed, he will never recoup the cost of the solar cells and will have wasted a lots of good money.

Hopefully we can all agree that buying any two boats is a little more complex of a decision then unit price to interchangeable widget. Comparing the price of two different kaiaks can be extreme. Drive down to your local boat shop. One kaiak cost $400, and the other Kaiak cost over $1000. They are made of different materials and to different standards. And the cost of any two 40 foot catamarans very just as much if not more.

So to reiterate I don't know if the markup is 200,000 or just 50,000 compared to a "similar" boat and knowing that markup would be important. Knowing the future cost of diesel would also be important to gauge whether this boat is a good or bad deal. Neither would be easy to guess.

But saying all that. Yeah I think the boat is a little over priced. But I don't think that has anything to do with it being a hybrid. ;-)

On Nov 23, 2011, at 4:39 AM, Eric wrote:

Hi James,

Do you have any prices to compare with regular boats in this size range? The one that did list a price, the DSE at $500,000US seems kind of pricy. I think that you could buy a new diesel powered 40' yacht that was much better looking and have almost $200,000 left over for future fuel purchases....

Eric
Marina del Rey, CA

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, James Sizemore <james@...> wrote:
>
> Two companies are already in the 40 foot hybrid category:
> http://www.greenlinehybrid.com/
> http://www.dsehybrid.com/
>
> I do not think it would be hard to beat the DSE in looks, one ugly boat. The Greenline is not a bad looking boat.
>
> In the pure electric category you might have stiffer competition http://www.solarwaterworld.de/en/products/yacht/suncat-46.html
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 22, 2011, at 6:56 PM, Mark Lockley <lockleymark1@...> wrote:
>
> > Hi Eric,
> >
> > thanks for comments sorry i wasnt more clear on the relaxed cruising, basically the people that are off on longer voyages - example cruising mexico's west coast - running mostly daytime journneys of less than 20nm and will have extended stays at anchor in bays and marinas etc The person or people perhaps that would like to sail but are older or unable to operate a sailboat but in no particular rush to get anyplace ut love peace and quiet mostly.
> > obviously the catamaran is a easier boat to move along and a good base for both batteries and solar panels etc.
> >
> > basically myself and a friend, both sailors and boat builders are toying with the concept to make them on a commercial level but we are not electrical savy as it were hence my questions.
> >
> > I find the forum interesting and welcome anyones input negative or positive so all debate is good - bring it on.
> >
> > Thanks Mark
> >
> > From: Eric <ewdysar@...>
> > To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, 23 November 2011, 6:52
> > Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: pulling the plug...
> >
> >
> > I'm going to have to say "it depends". I don't know what "relaxed extended cruiser" means to you. Offshore? Coastal? The Great Loop? Inland lakes?
> >
> > The Dragonfly, a 41' x 10' canalboat ( www.slowboatcruise.com ) did a very successful circumnavigation of the Great Loop. The boat was a hybrid, with a 60hp diesel, a 48V AGNI 95 (9kW) electric motor, 1/2 ton of batteries and plenty of solar panels. They ran at 3 knots under electric and any important pasages were run under diesel at up to 5.5kts. They averaged about 17 miles a day.
> >
> > They guy with the 38' trawler in the slip next to me considers himself to be a relaxed power cruiser. In a weekend he'll log close to 100nm of coastal/offshore distance at speeds around 10kts (that's the relaxed part, most of his peers cruise at 16-18kts). Electric drive, hybrid or not, has little value to him.
> >
> > But for a successful powerboat hybrid, I believe that one needs an ICE that will operate the vessel safely by itself and then add in a smaller electric drive that will handle the slow stuff cleanly and quietly. The Dragonfly went this route. Alternatively, one could build install an electric drive that can operate the vessel safely by itself then add the considerable onboard power generation to run the boat for extended periods (more than 30 minutes). Both scenarios are heavy, complicated and expensive when compared to a regular driveline. There are few (if any) efficiency gains at this scale and both types of drives will be running a diesel for most of their operation, keeping them fairly dependent on fossil fuels and diminishing the electric drive advantages (clean, quiet, low maintenance, etc.)
> >
> > These are just my opinions, and plenty of others feel differently. So if you want to do what the Dragonfly did, then hybrid is a viable alternative. But for most powerboaters, electric drive is difficult and expensive to implement effectively.
> >
> > Fair winds and smooth seas,
> > Eric
> > Marina del Rey, CA
> >
> > --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Mark Lockley <lockleymark1@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Eric,
> > > Ã‚
> > > do you feel a hybrid system - battery bank and small diesel D.C. generator is inneficient or innapropriate for a 40ft power catamaran - lets say for the relaxed extended cruiser market that want to be less dependant on diesel fuel and have the ability to sit and wait between passages ? obviously a paower catamaran will have a larger roof area available for location of solar especially if it was originally designed around the hybrid concept.Ã‚ your comment appreciated.
> > > Ã‚
> > > ThanksÃ‚ Mark
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>