Re: [Electric Boats] Re: AGM Batteries?

 

I was at an Alternative Energy conference last year where there was a rep from GM in one of the sessions who was in charge of GM's EV development program. When I tried to ask her specifically about what type of Lithium batteries they were using she seemed to get kind of defensive and stated there where 38 different Lithium chemistries and she couldn't say exactly which one they where using. So it probably is safe to say that not all Lithium batteries are created equal.

 

One thing is certain, from a performance standpoint, Lithium batteries can do things that lead acid can't come close too. But if your application does not require those enhanced performance characteristics, even lowly FLA batteries can work pretty good for a lot of systems. Especially in marine propulsion where weight and space issues aren't always as critical as they can be in some other EV endeavors. And they are a whole lot cheaper.

 

I wish we had some cost effective NiCad or NiMH options. I have different power tools with Lithium and NiCad batteries and the NiCad stuff far outperforms the Lithium for these application anyway.

 

 

From: John Paramore <watertoyz@frontier.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: AGM Batteries?

If there's blame needed, Yausa might be a candidate as the builders, 
but the problem was pretty easily resolved with a packaging 
adjustment. As to working/not working in boats, keep in mid that the 
100 mph world electric water speed record was set with an 80 pound 
lithium pack...Gobs more density that Lead/Acid and 400 to 500 pounds 
lighter.

John

On Aug 27, 2013, at 2:43 PM, mkriley48 wrote:

> for all you lithium guys I have one word "DREAMLINER"
> if Boeing with their resources  could not make it work,what do you 
> know that they don't? All dreamliners have been retrofitted to Ni-MH
> mike
>
> --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Capt. Mike" <biankablog@...> 
> wrote:
>>
>> Carter
>>
>> Free is good! Going to the AGM and Gel was a real pleasure after 
>> having flooded batteries.  I think one of the reasons my batteries 
>> are doing so well is they are always being charged by either 
>> solar, wind or AC battery chargers via the Honda 2000 and never 
>> really sit around in a discharged state for too long.  I also try 
>> not to operate them below 70% dod before going into "hybrid" mode. 
>> That still usually gives me several hours of just battery 
>> operation which is usually plenty when I waiting for the wind to 
>> pick up .
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from on board BIANKA
>> http://biankablog.blogspot.com/
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Carter Quillen <twowheelinguy@...>
>> Sender: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
>> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 12:17:31
>> To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com<electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
>> Reply-to: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] AGM Batteries?
>>
>> Hey Mike,
>> Â
>> I am pleased to annouce that I just stepped up to a duel bank 
>> of AGM batteries myself today. I totally lucked out and actually 
>> got 10, one year old, Dynasty UPS12-300MR, (group 24 I think), 
>> batteries GIVEN to me today. Woo Hoo!!! I guy I know at a factory 
>> I do work at was pitching them because they totally upgraded thier 
>> UPS. Nothing wrong with them AT ALL, they just got a new system 
>> and didn't need them anymore.
>> Â
>> I'm not convinced they are exactly what  I need but for the the 
>> price I'm going to make them work. I plan to separate my 
>> propulsion batteries from the house power and use these in twin 
>> 48V banks for my house power to feed the inverter for the 120V 
>> system. The Outback inverter has a 30 amp charge controller built 
>> into it so I'll use that and wire up the kiloWatt of panels on 
>> the Sun deck along with a wind generator I'm planning on getting 
>> soon, all dedicated to house power. That leaves me 4 kiloWatts 
>> from the tracking arrays for propulsion.Â
>> Â
>> Can't wait to get back to the Arc and get started next month. Am 
>> also going to add another eight T-125s so I have duel traction 
>> banks as well. That's like 2000 pounds of batteries total, lol.
>> Â
>> Another point about LiIon batteries that I've heard but not sure 
>> is true. May be for some chemistries and not others, I don't know 
>> but I've been told you might get thousands of cycles from them, 
>> however they pretty much just die after about 7 or 8 years anyway 
>> whether you're cycling them hard or not. That's just their shelf 
>> life. I don't know if it is true but it is consistent with my 
>> own limited experience with smaller LiIon batteries for radios and 
>> computers. I've never had one last more than six years.
>> Â
>> If you've gotten 6 years out of your AGMs, that's a big 
>> consideration if it is true because for many boats, # of cycles is 
>> not as big an issue as overall life expectancy. So if an AGM will 
>> last just as long, the only advantage to LiIon would be space and 
>> weight, which is often not a big issue on a boat anyway. Â
>> Â
>> Carter
>> http://www.shipofimagination.com/
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Mike <biankablog@...>
>> To: "electricboats@yahoogroups.com" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 11:46 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] AGM Batteries?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I think the decision on which battery technology to go with 
>> depends on a number of factors. Money just being one of them. Also 
>> how and where you will use the electric boat being another. I'm 
>> still not convinced that I would repower with LithIon when my AGM 
>> banks says it's time. They are still holding up well after six 
>> years. I know LitIon will be lighter than the 8A4D's I have now 
>> but, Â my worst case scenario is cruising down the Intercoastal 
>> waterway and one or more of my batteries needs to be replaced. I 
>> probably could have new AGM ones delivered to the boat within 
>> twenty four hours. Lead time for LithIon replacements is sometimes 
>> weeks last time I checked. Not an issue if your boat is at your 
>> home dock but, big $$$ if you are a transient boat on a cruise 
>> paying dock fees waiting for LithIon batteries to arrive. I'm also 
>> concerned about the adding the complexity of the BMS as my AGM 
>> bank has been pretty trouble free and requires very little
>>  babysitting these days. Of course I also have a sizable 
>> investment in chargers setup for my AGM bank too. I'm keeping an 
>> eye on the technology but, so far I have not seen enough reason to 
>> change from the AGM bank already installed.Â
>>
>> Capt. Mike
>> http://biankablog.blogspot.com/
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Roger L <rogerlov@...>
>> To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 9:34 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] AGM Batteries?
>>
>>
>>
>> Â
>> 
>> I suppose sometimes battery type comes down to time versus money.
>> Boats are my hobby, so time doesn't count.
>> But running dead batteries back and forth to Walmart comes 
>> perilously close to being work -Â and unpleasant work at that. At 
>> any rate, it's close enough to make me figure hourly wage into 
>> that argument.Â
>> YMMV,
>> Â Roger L.
>> .......
>> ...............Â
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: oak
>>> To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 7:23 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] AGM Batteries?
>>>
>>>
>>> I was talking to my "boat neighbor" in the slip next to mine last 
>>> night - he related the same experience that I have had:
>>>
>>>
>>> In central and south Texas, the thing to do is go to Walmart, buy 
>>> a battery, put the receipt some place safe. Â Walmart batteries 
>>> aren't the best, but they're cheap. Â And they had 5 year 
>>> warranties. Â On a boat in this heat with a charger, the battery 
>>> would be cooked in 2-3 years regardless of HOW much $$ you spent 
>>> on it. Â With the Walmart batteries, they were VERY GOOD about 
>>> taking the old battery back and prorating for the next one...  
>>> would typically cost about $30 every 2-3 years to replace the 
>>> battery.   <grin>
>>>
>>>
>>> My neighbor added another element.   I used to very carefully 
>>> keep the receipts in a file at home.   He recalled that for a 
>>> while, they would put the receipt in a plastic sleeve that was 
>>> attached to the battery itself.   But then they discovered the 
>>> heat from the engine was turning the thermal paper completely 
>>> black, so you couldn't read it anymore...   :)
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm used to batteries not lasting very long.   That's why I hate 
>>> to spend a huge investment on them. Â I have yet to see an ROI.
>>>
>>>
>>> But I've also never used batteries for such high and long term 
>>> power demands. Â The cheapest car battery I could find was always 
>>> OVERKILL for powering the radio, a few running lights, and MAYBE 
>>> starting a small engine.
>>>
>>>
>>> Now I need to be able to pull 10-25A constant for over an hour.  
>>> It'll be interesting to see if AGM batteries are up to this.
>>>
>>>
>>> After looking at the Balqor web site, Li may be more 
>>> approachable. Â If Li would truly give me a battery that will run 
>>> much longer, be much more reliable, maint. free, and last many 
>>> times more cycles, I'd love to try it. Â Up till now, it's been a 
>>> matter of sticker shock, and some trepidation about the 
>>> complication and expense of very expensive chargers and BMS 
>>> systems for each cell in a bank that would require many, many cells.
>>>
>>>
>>> Though, it sounds like the care and feeding of Li batteries 
>>> really doesn't have to be THAT complicated. Â I have plenty of 
>>> voltmeters. Â It would seem that if I bring a lead from each cell 
>>> out to a terminal strip that's easy to access, it should be an 
>>> easy thing to periodically check each of the cells.
>>>
>>>
>>> I would assume that in NORMAL usage, if I watch the voltage of 
>>> the bank, and don't run it into the ground - then I shouldn't 
>>> have to CONSTANTLY monitor the individual cells. Â And if I'm 
>>> using a small charger, and have plenty of time, then charging 
>>> need not be either complicated nor terribly expensive.
>>>
>>>
>>> Will see...
>>>
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Roger L <rogerlov@...>
>>> To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 7:39 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] AGM Batteries?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Â
>>> 
>>> I don't think that lead/acid is dead either. It seems to be a 
>>> very mature technology. But I think that flooded cells are out 
>>> of date. They are an unnecessary maintenance headache compared 
>>> to AGMs. The gel style AGM is simply a more efficient and abuse-
>>> resistant way to use the same lead acid technology. AGMs are 
>>> only slightly more expensive initially, much more resistant to 
>>> impact, tilt, and charge/discharge cycles, are non-fuming, and 
>>> last enough longer to more than make up for the difference in price.
>>> Caveat: I live in a cool to cold climate. Things might be 
>>> different in warmer climates.
>>>     Roger L.
>>> ...........
>>> ......................
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Carter Quillen
>>>> To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 26, 2013 12:33 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] AGM Batteries?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Few will dispute that LiIon technology rocks and that flooded 
>>>> lead acid kind of sux but  if you can get to the grocery store 
>>>> in Hundai and can't afford a Bently, you're not going to go 
>>>> hungry because you don't like the ride.
>>>> Â
>>>> Until the price of LiIon come down significantly, Lead will not 
>>>> be dead!
>>>> Â
>>>> And although it is highly debated using some very broad 
>>>> assumptions, lead acid is still quite competative against LiIon 
>>>> IMO. Especially if you're strictly looking at Watts/$$$ and not 
>>>> performance capabilities. Â If you've got the room, get the good 
>>>> stuff like Trojan or Rolls, design your system well and treat 
>>>> your FLA batteries right, I think you will find in a thorough 
>>>> economic analysis that lead acid is very economically 
>>>> competative against LiIon for marine propulsion applications. I 
>>>> would go so far as to say it is most likely  a better deal, 
>>>> especially when you simply consider storage capacity per dollar.
>>>> Â
>>>> Plus the economic risk factors are much lower with FLA because 
>>>> it doesn't hurt that much if you fry $1000 worth of lead acid 
>>>> batteries but a mistake that trashes your liIon system could put 
>>>> you into bankruptcy.
>>>> Â
>>>> Having said all that, I will admit that I although I'm content 
>>>> with my Toyota Corolla,(that has over half million miles on it 
>>>> btw), that doesn't mean I don't wish I could afford to drive a 
>>>> Bently.
>>>> Â
>>>> Carter
>>>> http://www.shipofimagination.com/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: Robert Lemke <robert-lemke@...>
>>>> To: "electricboats@yahoogroups.com" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 26, 2013 12:08 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] AGM Batteries?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: Roger L <rogerlov@...>
>>>> To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 26, 2013 8:38 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] AGM Batteries?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I quit using flooded cells and went to AGM about 15 years ago 
>>>> for everything on the farm and in the boats as well. All the 
>>>> cars, tractors, and trucks. Much better batteries.
>>>> Â Roger L.
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: oak
>>>>> To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 26, 2013 9:32 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] AGM Batteries?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> John,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   Maybe you aren't taking into account the major difference 
>>>>> between usable a-hr capacity between AGM and LiFePO4. Since you 
>>>>> quoted $200 per AGM, I'm assuming these are no bigger than 100 
>>>>> a-hr. When you calculate for usable a-hr, the AGM shouldn't be 
>>>>> pulled down more than 50% DOD, the lithium can be pulled down 
>>>>> to 80% DOD for 2000 cycles vs 400 for AGM. How they get their a-
>>>>> hr rating is also different, an AGM is pulled to 100% DOD at a 
>>>>> 20 hour rate vs a lithium being pulled to 80% DOD at a 1 hour 
>>>>> rate. If the AGM was pulled at a 1 hour rate, the the a-hr 
>>>>> rating would be 1/2 of what it is at the 20 hour rate due to 
>>>>> Peukert effect. An easy rule of thumb, what ever a-hr worked 
>>>>> for your needs with lead, you can size the LiFePO4 bank at 1/2 
>>>>> the size for the same usable a-hr. 200 a-hr lead bank could be 
>>>>> replaced by a 100 a-hr lithium bank. I have (2) 12 volt 100 a-
>>>>> hr Winston banks and each ran $440, so again, much cheaper than 
>>>>> lead.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob,Â
>>>>> If I did the full lifetime analysis, I'd probably agree with 
>>>>> you the Li batteries were (long term) a better deal.
>>>>> The issue is that for me to fund a single 24V bank, I'm looking 
>>>>> at around $2500.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> For my larger boat, it's $5000 for the 48V bank.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Even assuming $200 per 12V battery for AGM, it's sooo much more 
>>>>> affordable on the budget, even if I know I will most likely 
>>>>> have to replace the AGM bank a couple of times over the next 10 
>>>>> years.   If I spend $1000 on AGM batteries every 2 years, I'd 
>>>>> break even on a Li purchase after 10 years. Â Given that I 
>>>>> typically don't keep boats for more than 2 years, certainly not 
>>>>> as long as 10 years, it's just too long of a period for ROI.  
>>>>> And there's no way I'd begin to expect to get much on resale of 
>>>>> used batteries of any type.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If I end up sticking with my C-22 LONG term, and sticking with 
>>>>> the electric motor LONG term, I might eventually try a Li pack 
>>>>> as the primary battery for that boat, and keep a AGM or 
>>>>> possibly even FLA as backup, just because it's soooo much 
>>>>> cheaper.   But it'll be a while before I can afford another 
>>>>> $2500 of hobby bucks.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, I'm not disagreeing with you technically. Â I'd LOVE to 
>>>>> try out a LI bank and see how well it really works.   It's 
>>>>> just the initial investment plunge that's holding me back.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> John
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> From: Robert Lemke <robert-lemke@...>
>>>>> To: "electricboats@yahoogroups.com" 
>>>>> <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 26, 2013 10:15 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] AGM Batteries?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Â
>>>>> John,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I used to use Odyssey AGM for my electric kayak for a 16~18 
>>>>> mile range. Last year I switched to LiFePO4 and the same weight 
>>>>> in batteries, now have a 80 mile range. When you consider cycle 
>>>>> life, these Winston lithium cells give the best bang for the 
>>>>> buck. Â
>>>>> http://www.balqon.com/store.php#!/~/category/
>>>>> id=0&offset=0&sort=priceAsc
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> From: oak <oak_box@...>
>>>>> To: "electricboats@yahoogroups.com" 
>>>>> <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 26, 2013 6:06 AM
>>>>> Subject: [Electric Boats] AGM Batteries?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I recently noticed that a number of my deep cycle marine 
>>>>> flooded lead acid batteries had been pretty much cooked dry 
>>>>> from the Texas sun and the relatively moderate discharge cycles 
>>>>> of the Torqeedo motors.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The batteries are Exide batteries, group 27, 160 reserve 
>>>>> minutes. Â After re-filling the batteries, they would charge, 
>>>>> but certainly won't take a load for very long. Â The batteries 
>>>>> came with a 2 year replacement warranty - and at this point are 
>>>>> less than a year old.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I went by the place where I bought them, and noticed they had 
>>>>> Exide Vortex AGM batteries (group 24, 100 reserve minutes) on 
>>>>> sale for $119.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I pulled two of the most problematic FLA batteries (would take 
>>>>> a charge, but at less than 25A were dead in 5-10 minutes), and 
>>>>> returned them. Â The store gave me a full refund, which I 
>>>>> turned around and put toward purchasing two of the AGM 
>>>>> batteries to give a try.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have discovered that "maint. free" deep cycle batteries 
>>>>> aren't. Â And they can't begin to take the heat of a Texas 
>>>>> summer.  However, the power density was ok for my needs.  
>>>>> When they were new, and performing well, I could get over an 
>>>>> hour run time out of them at moderate power (though this was 
>>>>> still far below the rated 160 minutes at 25A rating!)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Will I get better results from the AGM batteries??
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Is it realistic to expect with AGM batteries rated for 100 
>>>>> Reserve Minutes (which I understand means I can run them for 
>>>>> 100 minutes at 25A load) that I can actually pull 10-20 amps 
>>>>> for over an hour, and then charge them back up on a fairly 
>>>>> regular basis?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> John
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
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