If there's blame needed, Yausa might be a candidate as the builders,
but the problem was pretty easily resolved with a packaging
adjustment. As to working/not working in boats, keep in mid that the
100 mph world electric water speed record was set with an 80 pound
lithium pack...Gobs more density that Lead/Acid and 400 to 500 pounds
lighter.
John
On Aug 27, 2013, at 2:43 PM, mkriley48 wrote:
> for all you lithium guys I have one word "DREAMLINER"
> if Boeing with their resources could not make it work,what do you
> know that they don't? All dreamliners have been retrofitted to Ni-MH
> mike
>
> --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Capt. Mike" <biankablog@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> Carter
>>
>> Free is good! Going to the AGM and Gel was a real pleasure after
>> having flooded batteries. I think one of the reasons my batteries
>> are doing so well is they are always being charged by either
>> solar, wind or AC battery chargers via the Honda 2000 and never
>> really sit around in a discharged state for too long. I also try
>> not to operate them below 70% dod before going into "hybrid" mode.
>> That still usually gives me several hours of just battery
>> operation which is usually plenty when I waiting for the wind to
>> pick up .
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from on board BIANKA
>> http://biankablog.blogspot.com
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Carter Quillen <twowheelinguy@...>
>> Sender: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
>> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 12:17:31
>> To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com<electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
>> Reply-to: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] AGM Batteries?
>>
>> Hey Mike,
>> Â
>> I am pleased to annouce that I just stepped up to a duel bank
>> of AGM batteries myself today. I totally lucked out and actually
>> got 10, one year old, Dynasty UPS12-300MR, (group 24 I think),
>> batteries GIVEN to me today. Woo Hoo!!! I guy I know at a factory
>> I do work at was pitching them because they totally upgraded thier
>> UPS. Nothing wrong with them AT ALL, they just got a new system
>> and didn't need them anymore.
>> Â
>> I'm not convinced they are exactly what I need but for the the
>> price I'm going to make them work. I plan to separate my
>> propulsion batteries from the house power and use these in twin
>> 48V banks for my house power to feed the inverter for the 120V
>> system. The Outback inverter has a 30 amp charge controller built
>> into it so I'll use that and wire up the kiloWatt of panels on
>> the Sun deck along with a wind generator I'm planning on getting
>> soon, all dedicated to house power. That leaves me 4 kiloWatts
>> from the tracking arrays for propulsion.Â
>> Â
>> Can't wait to get back to the Arc and get started next month. Am
>> also going to add another eight T-125s so I have duel traction
>> banks as well. That's like 2000 pounds of batteries total, lol.
>> Â
>> Another point about LiIon batteries that I've heard but not sure
>> is true. May be for some chemistries and not others, I don't know
>> but I've been told you might get thousands of cycles from them,
>> however they pretty much just die after about 7 or 8 years anyway
>> whether you're cycling them hard or not. That's just their shelf
>> life. I don't know if it is true but it is consistent with my
>> own limited experience with smaller LiIon batteries for radios and
>> computers. I've never had one last more than six years.
>> Â
>> If you've gotten 6 years out of your AGMs, that's a big
>> consideration if it is true because for many boats, # of cycles is
>> not as big an issue as overall life expectancy. So if an AGM will
>> last just as long, the only advantage to LiIon would be space and
>> weight, which is often not a big issue on a boat anyway. Â
>> Â
>> Carter
>> http://www.shipofimagination.com/
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Mike <biankablog@...>
>> To: "electricboats@yahoogroups.com" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 11:46 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] AGM Batteries?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I think the decision on which battery technology to go with
>> depends on a number of factors. Money just being one of them. Also
>> how and where you will use the electric boat being another. I'm
>> still not convinced that I would repower with LithIon when my AGM
>> banks says it's time. They are still holding up well after six
>> years. I know LitIon will be lighter than the 8A4D's I have now
>> but, Â my worst case scenario is cruising down the Intercoastal
>> waterway and one or more of my batteries needs to be replaced. I
>> probably could have new AGM ones delivered to the boat within
>> twenty four hours. Lead time for LithIon replacements is sometimes
>> weeks last time I checked. Not an issue if your boat is at your
>> home dock but, big $$$ if you are a transient boat on a cruise
>> paying dock fees waiting for LithIon batteries to arrive. I'm also
>> concerned about the adding the complexity of the BMS as my AGM
>> bank has been pretty trouble free and requires very little
>> babysitting these days. Of course I also have a sizable
>> investment in chargers setup for my AGM bank too. I'm keeping an
>> eye on the technology but, so far I have not seen enough reason to
>> change from the AGM bank already installed.Â
>>
>> Capt. Mike
>> http://biankablog.blogspot.com
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Roger L <rogerlov@...>
>> To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 9:34 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] AGM Batteries?
>>
>>
>>
>> Â
>> 
>> I suppose sometimes battery type comes down to time versus money.
>> Boats are my hobby, so time doesn't count.
>> But running dead batteries back and forth to Walmart comes
>> perilously close to being work -Â and unpleasant work at that. At
>> any rate, it's close enough to make me figure hourly wage into
>> that argument.Â
>> YMMV,
>> Â Roger L.
>> .......
>> ...............Â
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: oak
>>> To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 7:23 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] AGM Batteries?
>>>
>>>
>>> I was talking to my "boat neighbor" in the slip next to mine last
>>> night - he related the same experience that I have had:
>>>
>>>
>>> In central and south Texas, the thing to do is go to Walmart, buy
>>> a battery, put the receipt some place safe. Â Walmart batteries
>>> aren't the best, but they're cheap. Â And they had 5 year
>>> warranties. Â On a boat in this heat with a charger, the battery
>>> would be cooked in 2-3 years regardless of HOW much $$ you spent
>>> on it. Â With the Walmart batteries, they were VERY GOOD about
>>> taking the old battery back and prorating for the next one... Â
>>> would typically cost about $30 every 2-3 years to replace the
>>> battery. Â <grin>
>>>
>>>
>>> My neighbor added another element. Â I used to very carefully
>>> keep the receipts in a file at home. Â He recalled that for a
>>> while, they would put the receipt in a plastic sleeve that was
>>> attached to the battery itself. Â But then they discovered the
>>> heat from the engine was turning the thermal paper completely
>>> black, so you couldn't read it anymore... Â :)
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm used to batteries not lasting very long. Â That's why I hate
>>> to spend a huge investment on them. Â I have yet to see an ROI.
>>>
>>>
>>> But I've also never used batteries for such high and long term
>>> power demands. Â The cheapest car battery I could find was always
>>> OVERKILL for powering the radio, a few running lights, and MAYBE
>>> starting a small engine.
>>>
>>>
>>> Now I need to be able to pull 10-25A constant for over an hour. Â
>>> It'll be interesting to see if AGM batteries are up to this.
>>>
>>>
>>> After looking at the Balqor web site, Li may be more
>>> approachable. Â If Li would truly give me a battery that will run
>>> much longer, be much more reliable, maint. free, and last many
>>> times more cycles, I'd love to try it. Â Up till now, it's been a
>>> matter of sticker shock, and some trepidation about the
>>> complication and expense of very expensive chargers and BMS
>>> systems for each cell in a bank that would require many, many cells.
>>>
>>>
>>> Though, it sounds like the care and feeding of Li batteries
>>> really doesn't have to be THAT complicated. Â I have plenty of
>>> voltmeters. Â It would seem that if I bring a lead from each cell
>>> out to a terminal strip that's easy to access, it should be an
>>> easy thing to periodically check each of the cells.
>>>
>>>
>>> I would assume that in NORMAL usage, if I watch the voltage of
>>> the bank, and don't run it into the ground - then I shouldn't
>>> have to CONSTANTLY monitor the individual cells. Â And if I'm
>>> using a small charger, and have plenty of time, then charging
>>> need not be either complicated nor terribly expensive.
>>>
>>>
>>> Will see...
>>>
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Roger L <rogerlov@...>
>>> To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 7:39 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] AGM Batteries?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Â
>>> 
>>> I don't think that lead/acid is dead either. It seems to be a
>>> very mature technology. But I think that flooded cells are out
>>> of date. They are an unnecessary maintenance headache compared
>>> to AGMs. The gel style AGM is simply a more efficient and abuse-
>>> resistant way to use the same lead acid technology. AGMs are
>>> only slightly more expensive initially, much more resistant to
>>> impact, tilt, and charge/discharge cycles, are non-fuming, and
>>> last enough longer to more than make up for the difference in price.
>>> Caveat: I live in a cool to cold climate. Things might be
>>> different in warmer climates.
>>> Â Â Â Roger L.
>>> ...........
>>> ......................
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Carter Quillen
>>>> To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 26, 2013 12:33 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] AGM Batteries?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Few will dispute that LiIon technology rocks and that flooded
>>>> lead acid kind of sux but if you can get to the grocery store
>>>> in Hundai and can't afford a Bently, you're not going to go
>>>> hungry because you don't like the ride.
>>>> Â
>>>> Until the price of LiIon come down significantly, Lead will not
>>>> be dead!
>>>> Â
>>>> And although it is highly debated using some very broad
>>>> assumptions, lead acid is still quite competative against LiIon
>>>> IMO. Especially if you're strictly looking at Watts/$$$ and not
>>>> performance capabilities. Â If you've got the room, get the good
>>>> stuff like Trojan or Rolls, design your system well and treat
>>>> your FLA batteries right, I think you will find in a thorough
>>>> economic analysis that lead acid is very economically
>>>> competative against LiIon for marine propulsion applications. I
>>>> would go so far as to say it is most likely a better deal,Â
>>>> especially when you simply consider storage capacity per dollar.
>>>> Â
>>>> Plus the economic risk factors are much lower with FLA because
>>>> it doesn't hurt that much if you fry $1000 worth of lead acid
>>>> batteries but a mistake that trashes your liIon system could put
>>>> you into bankruptcy.
>>>> Â
>>>> Having said all that, I will admit that I although I'm content
>>>> with my Toyota Corolla,(that has over half million miles on it
>>>> btw), that doesn't mean I don't wish I could afford to drive a
>>>> Bently.
>>>> Â
>>>> Carter
>>>> http://www.shipofimagination.com/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: Robert Lemke <robert-lemke@...>
>>>> To: "electricboats@yahoogroups.com" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 26, 2013 12:08 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] AGM Batteries?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: Roger L <rogerlov@...>
>>>> To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 26, 2013 8:38 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] AGM Batteries?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I quit using flooded cells and went to AGM about 15 years ago
>>>> for everything on the farm and in the boats as well. All the
>>>> cars, tractors, and trucks. Much better batteries.
>>>> Â Roger L.
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: oak
>>>>> To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 26, 2013 9:32 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] AGM Batteries?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> John,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Â Maybe you aren't taking into account the major difference
>>>>> between usable a-hr capacity between AGM and LiFePO4. Since you
>>>>> quoted $200 per AGM, I'm assuming these are no bigger than 100
>>>>> a-hr. When you calculate for usable a-hr, the AGM shouldn't be
>>>>> pulled down more than 50% DOD, the lithium can be pulled down
>>>>> to 80% DOD for 2000 cycles vs 400 for AGM. How they get their a-
>>>>> hr rating is also different, an AGM is pulled to 100% DOD at a
>>>>> 20 hour rate vs a lithium being pulled to 80% DOD at a 1 hour
>>>>> rate. If the AGM was pulled at a 1 hour rate, the the a-hr
>>>>> rating would be 1/2 of what it is at the 20 hour rate due to
>>>>> Peukert effect. An easy rule of thumb, what ever a-hr worked
>>>>> for your needs with lead, you can size the LiFePO4 bank at 1/2
>>>>> the size for the same usable a-hr. 200 a-hr lead bank could be
>>>>> replaced by a 100 a-hr lithium bank. I have (2) 12 volt 100 a-
>>>>> hr Winston banks and each ran $440, so again, much cheaper than
>>>>> lead.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob,Â
>>>>> If I did the full lifetime analysis, I'd probably agree with
>>>>> you the Li batteries were (long term) a better deal.
>>>>> The issue is that for me to fund a single 24V bank, I'm looking
>>>>> at around $2500.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> For my larger boat, it's $5000 for the 48V bank.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Even assuming $200 per 12V battery for AGM, it's sooo much more
>>>>> affordable on the budget, even if I know I will most likely
>>>>> have to replace the AGM bank a couple of times over the next 10
>>>>> years. Â If I spend $1000 on AGM batteries every 2 years, I'd
>>>>> break even on a Li purchase after 10 years. Â Given that I
>>>>> typically don't keep boats for more than 2 years, certainly not
>>>>> as long as 10 years, it's just too long of a period for ROI. Â
>>>>> And there's no way I'd begin to expect to get much on resale of
>>>>> used batteries of any type.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If I end up sticking with my C-22 LONG term, and sticking with
>>>>> the electric motor LONG term, I might eventually try a Li pack
>>>>> as the primary battery for that boat, and keep a AGM or
>>>>> possibly even FLA as backup, just because it's soooo much
>>>>> cheaper. Â But it'll be a while before I can afford another
>>>>> $2500 of hobby bucks.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, I'm not disagreeing with you technically. Â I'd LOVE to
>>>>> try out a LI bank and see how well it really works. Â It's
>>>>> just the initial investment plunge that's holding me back.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> John
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> From: Robert Lemke <robert-lemke@...>
>>>>> To: "electricboats@yahoogroups.com"
>>>>> <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 26, 2013 10:15 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] AGM Batteries?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Â
>>>>> John,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I used to use Odyssey AGM for my electric kayak for a 16~18
>>>>> mile range. Last year I switched to LiFePO4 and the same weight
>>>>> in batteries, now have a 80 mile range. When you consider cycle
>>>>> life, these Winston lithium cells give the best bang for the
>>>>> buck. Â
>>>>> http://www.balqon.com/store.php#!/~/category/
>>>>> id=0&offset=0&sort=priceAsc
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> From: oak <oak_box@...>
>>>>> To: "electricboats@yahoogroups.com"
>>>>> <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 26, 2013 6:06 AM
>>>>> Subject: [Electric Boats] AGM Batteries?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I recently noticed that a number of my deep cycle marine
>>>>> flooded lead acid batteries had been pretty much cooked dry
>>>>> from the Texas sun and the relatively moderate discharge cycles
>>>>> of the Torqeedo motors.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The batteries are Exide batteries, group 27, 160 reserve
>>>>> minutes. Â After re-filling the batteries, they would charge,
>>>>> but certainly won't take a load for very long. Â The batteries
>>>>> came with a 2 year replacement warranty - and at this point are
>>>>> less than a year old.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I went by the place where I bought them, and noticed they had
>>>>> Exide Vortex AGM batteries (group 24, 100 reserve minutes) on
>>>>> sale for $119.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I pulled two of the most problematic FLA batteries (would take
>>>>> a charge, but at less than 25A were dead in 5-10 minutes), and
>>>>> returned them. Â The store gave me a full refund, which I
>>>>> turned around and put toward purchasing two of the AGM
>>>>> batteries to give a try.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have discovered that "maint. free" deep cycle batteries
>>>>> aren't. Â And they can't begin to take the heat of a Texas
>>>>> summer. Â However, the power density was ok for my needs. Â
>>>>> When they were new, and performing well, I could get over an
>>>>> hour run time out of them at moderate power (though this was
>>>>> still far below the rated 160 minutes at 25A rating!)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Will I get better results from the AGM batteries??
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Is it realistic to expect with AGM batteries rated for 100
>>>>> Reserve Minutes (which I understand means I can run them for
>>>>> 100 minutes at 25A load) that I can actually pull 10-20 amps
>>>>> for over an hour, and then charge them back up on a fairly
>>>>> regular basis?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> John
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
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