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Hi Charles and All,
First thing I learned is car salemen lie and battery saleman are even worse. So I go to basic econo 101 and physics.
Since the batteries Tesla, others use cost $250kwhr in 1000 lots, that sets lithium battery material costs at under $175kw and probably under $125/kwhr. There is nothing that expensive in good lithiums but about 18 lbs of alum, copper, iron, plastic, electrolyte and a lb of lithium carbonate, none of which are more than $6/lb.
Packaging, temp control and BMS is about $100/kwhr but that is likely to drop as electronics gets better and production experience increases.
Since batteries really are commoditities because so many battery companies and so few orders, battery companies will be lucky to get cost +10%.
While car companies spend way too much calculating and just need to get some time in EV's, it's not the battery's fault nor should it be put in the EV battery's cost unless over several yrs like other car's tooling is.
So this leads me to read into the lines that lithium batteries now cost OEM's about $400/kwhr in finished pack form and probably under $200/kwhr in 5 yrs if not earlier.
Love is so short, forgetting is so long.
From: Kirk McLoren <kirkmcloren@yahoo.com>
To: "electricboats@yahoogroups.com" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] NiMH Batteries Suppressed
I think some of these patents expire 2014
Love is so short, forgetting is so long.
From: Craig Carmichael <craig@saers.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:42 PM
Subject: [Electric Boats] NiMH Batteries Suppressed
>I believe there is some sort of contract, patent, or combination of
>both, possibly from GM, that requires hybrids to only use NiMH.
>
It is the opposite. Since the success of GM's EV-1 [see video "Who
Killed the Electric Car"] Chevron acquired Ovonics from GM, and via
its morphing proxies Cobasys and now "Ovonics reborn"(?) has acquired
125 patents for metal hydrides and simply won't let ANYBODY, ANYWHERE
build big flooded NiMH batteries.
The writing is on the wall: try to make them and you'll get a "stop
work" injunction and be tied up in court until bankruptcy. Whether or
not any of the patents were violated. No sane investor would touch
that. (And I'll bet almost none of the 125 inventors got much of
anything, since their inventions have gone to waste as usual.) No
wonder China "doesn't honor" [technology murder by] US patents.
That's the main reason lead-acid isn't EXTINCT, because as Kirk
surmises the prices would be economical - only somewhat more, and the
batteries far superior and way longer lasting.
That's also why the NiMH D cells have been so well developed and have
amazing specs, and are being used as hybrid batteries. But they cost
double(?) what big flooded cells would.
And it's also the main reason there are big lithium batteries. These
snuck past while they were busy supressing NiMH because they were so
high priced and so 'touchy' in operation that the gangster owners of
"big oil" thought no one would use them.
And it was my original impetus to try, first 'simply' to make NiMH's
(Jan.2008), and then as I learned more, to create a new higher energy
economical battery chemistry.
Craig
>both, possibly from GM, that requires hybrids to only use NiMH.
>
It is the opposite. Since the success of GM's EV-1 [see video "Who
Killed the Electric Car"] Chevron acquired Ovonics from GM, and via
its morphing proxies Cobasys and now "Ovonics reborn"(?) has acquired
125 patents for metal hydrides and simply won't let ANYBODY, ANYWHERE
build big flooded NiMH batteries.
The writing is on the wall: try to make them and you'll get a "stop
work" injunction and be tied up in court until bankruptcy. Whether or
not any of the patents were violated. No sane investor would touch
that. (And I'll bet almost none of the 125 inventors got much of
anything, since their inventions have gone to waste as usual.) No
wonder China "doesn't honor" [technology murder by] US patents.
That's the main reason lead-acid isn't EXTINCT, because as Kirk
surmises the prices would be economical - only somewhat more, and the
batteries far superior and way longer lasting.
That's also why the NiMH D cells have been so well developed and have
amazing specs, and are being used as hybrid batteries. But they cost
double(?) what big flooded cells would.
And it's also the main reason there are big lithium batteries. These
snuck past while they were busy supressing NiMH because they were so
high priced and so 'touchy' in operation that the gangster owners of
"big oil" thought no one would use them.
And it was my original impetus to try, first 'simply' to make NiMH's
(Jan.2008), and then as I learned more, to create a new higher energy
economical battery chemistry.
Craig
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