Re: [Electric Boats] AGM vs. FLA batteries and their usage

I like the thread.
I would note that at the moment we are moving into a cycle of widespread
usage of main storage in batteries, ie EV apps.

Thus, everything is a little bit "afloat" and there are huge variations
in nominal prices.
Most of this comes from old-line established manufacturers, and marine
companies, keeping artificially high margins.

As, marine apps often will have 60-80% margins, where auto apps might
have 30% margins, and wholesale apps might have 20% margins.
And these stack up, currently.
So a whoesaler gets 20% and the retailer gets 60% - in marine apps, usually.

BUT..
Many businesses are moving to direct sales, and many mini-retailers are
moving to direct importation.
A direct- to- user model can easily subsist on 20% margins from the
manufacturer, if the product is reliable and long-term low-cost.
No significant liabilities, no expensive aftermarket support etc.

This is what is happening with PV panels, mppt controllers, batteries,
battery controllers and electric controllers in general.
So, the old-style "brand" focused pricing model is changing to a
costs-based model.

Anyone can buy cheap controllers, pv panels, and cheap(ish) LiFepo
batteries.
There are any nr of middlemen offering them direct from the manufacturer.

The products are generally good - but may not be what you need.
Fit-for-purpose is sometimes unclear.
Also, in my experience, marine gear from established manufacturers is
not particularly fit-for-purpose either, re: need to refit everything
every few years vs. highly reliable commercial-industrial products.

Pro:
Comparing a cost-based price to a retailer-based solution is not really
the same.
It may be better in fact, in favour of the imported-from-factory, as new
tech is siginificantly better due to rapid technical development.
Con:
Or not.
What you do get, from an established marine retailer, is a package known
to work together well.
Often, there is a significant price delta, upto 300% of cost-based pricing.

As manufacturer costs decline, usage goes up exponentially, and retail
solutions for marine use become commonly available, packaged-solution
pricing will also decline quickly.
Partly because more kit will be available direct-to-user with a lower
delta on the wholesale/retail part.
Also, the modern electronic stuff is dead cheap to make, distribute and
sell.

So all controllers, lifepo chargers, mppt controllers, inverters, etc
are already cheap and the prices are falling rapidly, and will continue
to fall rapidly, until they hit a cost-based price.
This is likely about 1/3 current cheapest price.
It costs about 100$ to make a big inverter, mppt controller etc. These
still sell for 500-1500$ and this price will go to a lower level, likely
about 200$, rapidly.
Big here is 5-15 kW, in general.
A controller for a 5 kW EV solution consts about the (almost the) same
as one for 150 kW (to make).
Extra features cost about 1-5%, at most, as these are mostly software.
Extra reliability costs only a few $$ in bigger bus bars, better margin
on electronics, better containers etc, relatively low overall.

I can find a mppt controller for 200€ and 1200€ for the same capacity in
kW. 600% more.
The more expensive one is in no way better - it just has more overhead.
It may also be older (production costs were higher) and less reliable
(newer is more reliable).

I just looked at a story on a refit on a 46 feet Hallberg Rassy sailboat.
The (very knowledgeable) owner spent 50.000 € on electronics and 19.000€
on electrics.
Sufficient functionally equivalent electrics and electronics to run a
(non ev) cruiser in the 7.5 kW range can be had for 6000€.
It is hard to see what the "benefit" of the 70.000€ is, where all old
stuff is thrown away by latest in 12 years (this refit was for 12 years
old stuff).
Avg replacement age in electronics in boats is 6-8 years.
I do admit that you cannot get as-nice "shiny kit" for the 6000€.
However, paying 64.000€ extra for fancy boxes is not really cost-effective.
Besides, you can get custom made cut and engraved stainless 316L panels
made for 300€ each, and you need 4-5 at most on a sailboat.

--
-hanermo



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