Hi Arby,
While I understand your comment "Electricboats needs credibility" I think my simplistic presentation of thought is being misunderstood.
If ideas are only considered credible, when they are fully engineered and ready for market, then small wonder we still look for more affordable and less vulnerable storage units.
I made mention of things based on common materials that anyone can find easy access to if on a shoestring type budget, as most appear to be. I commented on very common PVC water main pipe (small to large sizes) having wall thickness around 3/4"-1". Manufactured products would be much more suited to actual required needs.
The idea is not to build a battery at present standards of construction, but a method of extending battery life & reduction of crucial monitored charges and discharges.
Energy storage might be compromised (I suspect yes) but maybe not.
A couple of questions, answered, might solve the whole issue.
Being as I don't have degrees or impressive ability with presentation of things, I rely on analogies that might build a mental image and therein is the seemingly loss of credible presentation.
In present technology, anode and cathode plates of porous baked on coating, are in very close proximity and battery action is at it's best potential.If we move to an extreme and make the anode and cathode, two separate containers, connected only by the flow of sulfuric acid in a loop going through them,.....would the proper chemical action take place...??
In this less than credible example, the analogy is, and I hope that everyone interested is somewhat familiar with a swimming pool sand filter and how basically it operates. If two tanks filled with lead shot or somewhat coarse grain lead media and having A proper contact area terminal extending into the lead media, one for the positive tank and one for the negative tank, I think that as the acid flows between tanks that a charge or load will have the same affect as a conventional design battery (would any agree or disagree?). This can be changed in many ways from this extreme example, to loose media packs within close proximity serving as cathode and anode as in regular design.
The idea is a tumble action cleaning and conditioning of the lead media and filtered material being recycled and returned back into the internal workings.
Sorry Myles, I hope this is acceptable and that you can let it stay as is. If none deem it to have any credible value, then it dies here. I know and understand full well what it will take to make this a marketable product, unlike a regular battery, this is, with care and small effort, something anyone could do for a personal project.
Anything else I guess, might need to be private e-mail?????
Thanks
Ron
--- In
electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Arby Bernt <arbybernt@...> wrote:
>
> Dear John,
> While you are correct that making a battery can be done with a few fundamental parts is possible (Volta made "piles" of metals, electrolyte and seperators), Myles is correct that many millions have been invested towards a better battery.
> A 6v L16 lead acid wet cell at 375Ah for $250 would still be a much better bargin than the cost of your time and material to build the same.
> Electric boats need credibility. A bunch of old kitchen sinks full of acid sloshing around below decks seems far off that mark...
>
> Be Well,
> Arby Bernt,
> SAE Certified Battery Technician
>
> On Aug 27, 2011, at 5:10 AM, "John Green" <v_2jgree@...> wrote:
>
> Myles, sorry for the long posts, I should have split the topics, will do
> so next time around. I hope that you can relate it to my enthusiasm!
>
> What a great idea Ron has to run motors so that they can be 'pumped'
> with more electricity.
> This, if it works, bodes well, because the cost of motors is high in
> proportion to the output.
> I guess in a way I have to retract my disagreement with Eric, because I
> hadn't even thought that the difference (that Hanermo just pointed out
> re basic versus costed out ideas) was the critical factor, even though I
> have probably experienced it.
> That situation actually applies, possibly in reverse, to my military
> idea that is dormant. Say, for instance, the idea was to change the
> spiral of gun rifling to twist the opposite way, it would be extremely
> impractical for me to produce a working model, yet relatively easy for a
> gun manufacturer to do so.
> I think that the home-made battery is a poor example, because it
> involves nothing that is novel.
> I could give a breakdown that differs:
> Old sink, obtainable from municipal dump, say $5 each.
> Lead, melt it down on a wood fire in the garden, using old batteries as
> the source, purchased from the local scrap yard for $2 each, say, 20
> batteries = 40 bucks..........and so on. Like electric drives, it
> depends on the personal situation of the user.
> The difference is, that you end up with a massive single cell. With
> another five, you end up with a massive battery that you can then
> compare to, say, 100 units from Walmart at $100 per unit.
> It was an idea, that's all. The real point was, if you need a large
> battery bank to give range, and don't mind working at it, there are ways
> around the cost of straightforward purchase of commercial items. It was
> never meant as an idea to start manufacturing batteries from recycled
> materials and selling them.
>
> This need to spoon feed the corporate recipient though, is irritating to
> me, hehehe. It seems that Hanermo has an added key to why corporations
> are, in my opinion, resistive to ideas.
> As a machinist, I did tend to include material and dimensional
> specifications, as well as process descriptions that can be translated
> into cost, if the recipient of the idea wishes to do so. I cannot
> calculate that cost, say, of plastic battery cases, because I do not
> have the bulk cost/price of the plastic pellets that the particular
> manufacturer has brokered with their supplier, or his processing
> overhead in moulding it.
> Myles, I have no idea in the world where you get the impression that I
> 'seem' to think that battery makers have not been innovating. Reality
> is, I believe that this is key to electric drives, and in the past, I
> have mentioned that in my opinion the battery technology will be driven
> by the EV industry. (so all the efforts to gain boat range might be moot
> - just sit back and let the car guys do the work!).
> I also realise that there is useful innovation, and that it drives
> successful businesses. I had simplified it too much, I should have added
> the word 'externally submitted' in front of 'innovation'.
> Having given it more thought, though, it makes sense. The reason is
> possibly that any already successful company will have it's innovation
> sources already in place, and budgeted for. Such a situation would be
> sure to make them resistant to happy crackpots like me.
> Anyway, these days, I just have the ideas, put them out there, and no
> longer get wound up about it.
> John
>
> --
>
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>
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