T-Pain Is On A Boat: Re: [Electric Boats] "Batteries Not Included"

Thank you for your input Ron
Exactly what is it you would like to see. You are requesting video and drawings on how a boat is supposed to move by use of electricity rather than petroleum based energy source, yet you are not clear in your request.
The electric motors turn the propeller at a certain rpm directly related to the amount of watts, amps and volts that a motor controller delivers from a 72v battery bank.
I am not seeing the need for any explanation other than the obvious.

Thanks again

James

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Micjan" <ron@...> wrote:
>
> I think you guys have been quite reserved in answering James and in fact far
> more polite and helpful that is deserved. I am of the opinion that rather
> than spend the whole night explaining that in the morning the sun will
> certainly rise, that waiting will provide the exact same result in the same
> time without all the wasted breath. I still have not read one sentence of
> how this boat will move using these extraordinary sources of energy or seen
> one diagram of how it is to be wired together, or one equation of what
> thrust will be derived from these devices or one photo of an experiment that
> shows a needle moving in response to this "power from the ether" and in
> absence of any empirical data I am wont to believe that James is either a
> troll, looking to get a rise out of us and is certainly giggling in his
> beer; or he really believes in what he is shoveling and we should just wait
> until he sees the sun rise tomorrow and we should quit casting our pearls
> before swine. I think there may be room in this post for one more cliché,
> how about you can lead a horse to water…but you cannot make him think.
>
> It is better to be thought a fool than to open ones mouth and remove all
> doubt.
>
> Back to lurking…
>
>
> Ron Micjan
> <mailto:ron@...> ron@...
> 503 632 5553
>
> From: electricboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of cire
> Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 4:41 AM
> To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] "Batteries Not Included"
>
>
> Not that James is a peer, from what he has posted, he is not even close, but
> I would suggest that you look at some serious peer reviews of real research.
> It can be and often is brutal; and that is ok. Science is not about playing
> nice in the sand box.
>
> For the most part the reviews of James' work have been rather respectful
> though I must admit that some of mine has not been.
>
> As I sit here at anchor on the Rhode River I can hear geese, I don't care
> what anyone else wants to call them, the community in which we live calls
> them geese. When I read someone describe a PMM, I don't care what he wants
> to call it, it's still a PMM.
>
> As a scientist and engineer and someone who has taught research methodology,
> I have little patience - though I wish I had more - with someone who has not
> bothered to at least review the literature before jumping in to 'reinvent
> the wheel'.
>
> All that being said, I actually hope James has hit onto something and will
> have no problem congratulating him if he has. Engineering is not about being
> right but getting it right.
>
> eric SV Meander
>
> --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com> , Julan Webb <julian.proto@
> <mailto:julian.proto@> > wrote:
> >
> > James
> >
> > - At the risk of saying "I told you so", any proof you offer here will be
> > discounted without regard, as the educated critics will know without
> > looking, that the proof you offered must be fake,
> > - For anybody to dimiss something that they have no personal experience or
> > knowledge of is of course unscientific but those who "know" what will work
> > and what won't, will call their close minded responses...........
> > scientific.
> >
> > - Now you will have learned what's "acceptable" to talk about and what's
> > not, you should be able work out the topics you will benefit from by
> > posting here.
> >
> > - By now you should have been to the websites that specialise in the sorts
> > of topics that have drawn unconstructive input here? If not do so now.
> > There's advice, test reports, real world testing with figures etc and
> their
> > not trying to sell you anything.
> >
> > Julian
> >
> >
> >
> > On 24 May 2013 17:19, james4078 <james4078@ <mailto:james4078@> >
> wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm a little perplexed to the thinking of some of you reading and
> > > contributing to this stimulating subject.
> > > Perpetual Motion
> > > Creating energy
> > > Laws of thermo-dynamics
> > > Unicorns and Magic
> > > I spoke of none of these yet some of you interpret what you are reading
> in
> > > your own way.
> > > I have received 3 useful pieces information the rest is just people
> > > spewing their own ignorance to topics they cannot admit they know
> nothing
> > > about or do not understand.
> > > I have admitted there is one energy source that I am attempting to use
> > > that I do not fully understand... The deliverance circuit.
> > > Everything else is verifiable, it is the missing usable data I am after.
> I
> > > am not looking to discover anything that is not already there. I just
> want
> > > to expand on it and use it.
> > > If you have no useful comments to contribute then please keep your
> > > opinions to yourself.
> > >
> > > Thanks you
> > >
> > > James
> > >
> > > --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com> , "cire" <cirejay@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Oh ye of little faith:-).
> > > >
> > > > eric SV Meander
> > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com> , "Roger L" <rogerlov@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, add this old-time traditional engineer to the group who finds
> > > the Perpetual Motion Clubsters to be an interesting lot - at least some
> of
> > > the time. Why not? After all, anyone who reads a bit of modern quantum
> > > mechanics is already at least half way to never-never land.
> > > > >
> > > > > A new friend who came over to dinner at our place the other night
> > > turned out to be a fully fledged member of the PM Club. While he talked,
> > > what began to fascinate me was not his opinions as much as a sudden
> > > realization that the way he presented his opinions sounded so familiar.
> In
> > > fact, even the cadence of his argument and the posture of his
> presentation
> > > struck me as being surprisingly similar to other perpetual motion/free
> > > energy proponents I've heard and read over the years. Is deja vu the
> same
> > > as magic? And why do they believe in PM anyway?
> > > > >
> > > > > Now I wish I'd asked him that very question. Maybe next time.
> > > > > Roger L.
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Carter Quillen
> > > > > To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 11:27 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] "Batteries Not Included"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Well this post might not make me any new friends but when it comes
> to
> > > the rotoverter, I'm not ashamed to be the guy "who dares to be stupid
> > > enough to say that they are"... SNAKE OIL.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't want to dampen anyone's enthusiasm for exploring the unknown
> > > but some things are what some things are so why waste your time chasing
> > > unicorns when there are some seriously fat cows that really are out
> there
> > > waiting to be slaughtered. Maybe the better question should be: Do you
> > > believe in magic?
> > > > > I do not.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't believe we get to break the laws of thermodynamic in this
> > > plane of existence and I'm not ashamed to say it. You can game them six
> > > ways to Sunday, but you don't get to flat out break them and that's what
> > > the rotoverter claims to do.
> > > > >
> > > > > Here's a simple example of what I'm talking about: Paraphasing the
> > > second law of thermodynamics, "Energy flows from hot to cold and the
> rate
> > > at which it travels is proportional to the difference in temperature."
> On
> > > the surface, the ordinary refrigerator appears to break this law by
> > > removing heat from the freezer which is cold and making it flow into the
> > > room, which is hot, exactly opposite of the 2nd law. Although this seems
> to
> > > contradict the second law of thermodynamics, it really doesn't and I
> won't
> > > bore everyone with an explanation of the how and why but my point is
> that
> > > this system only "appears" to break the laws of nature, it actually
> > > doesn't.
> > > > >
> > > > > The rotoverter, as advertized on the internet, is a perpetual motion
> > > machine, modern day snake oil at it's best but, like unicorns, it
> doesn't
> > > exist. Maybe if you built one with superconductive windings and flooded
> it
> > > in liquid nitrogen, then configured it to somehow be harmonic or
> resonant
> > > with the natural frequency of the universe to absorb cosmic radiation,
> who
> > > knows,maybe you could capture some mystery energy from somewhere but the
> > > energy has to come from somewhere, you don't get to "create" it. And
> that's
> > > not just my opinion, it is supported by hundreds of years of empirical
> > > data. There are many unsolved mysteries in this world but the
> "rotoverter"
> > > is not one of them. From everything I know about it, which admittedly is
> > > somewhat limited, it is just a brilliant and lucrative gimmick. I would
> > > welcome anyone to actually prove me wrong on that though.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am certainly NOT someone "who is arrogant enough to state that
> they
> > > know all energies and their manifestations that our universe has to
> offer",
> > > but I'm pretty confident I know snake oil when I see it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Rather than wasting his time on the rotoverter, I would challenge
> > > James to work on figuring out a way to make a solar collector that is
> 50%
> > > efficient instead of 14%. That innovation would make the typical solar
> > > canopy put out 3 times more energy and at 50% eff. it doesn't even come
> > > close to violating any physical laws of nature.
> > > > >
> > > > > Or perhaps cobble together a simple and innovative electric drive
> > > system that can be easily and cost effectively adapted to some of these
> old
> > > boats that are just sitting around wasting away. That transom extension
> he
> > > came up with looks like a good start on that idea.
> > > > >
> > > > > These type of things are doable. "Creating" energy is not.
> > > > >
> > > > > As I've said before, I think he's on to something with his idea of
> > > retrofitting old boats with alterative energy drives systems. But I also
> > > believe he has a better chance for success if he forgets about trying to
> > > use a unicorn... errr "rotoverter" in his designs.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Carter Quillen, P.E.
> > > > > http://www.shipofimagination.com/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From: Julian Webb <julian.proto@>
> > > > > To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 5:11 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] "Batteries Not Included"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Willie
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > - I'm not meaning to be rude with this next sentence, but if you
> "try"
> > > something and do it incorrectly it doesn't mean the theory is not right,
> it
> > > means you're not, and worse you're going o become a wonderful validator
> for
> > > the "I told you so" brigade.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > - If you tried to make something as simple as a blender without the
> > > correct plans or help how successful do you think it would be? That
> should
> > > not mean the concept of a blender was wrong or that we should stick to
> > > knives.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > - As I said, although I haven't tried the Roto-Verter, I know simply
> > > hooking a motor to a generator and hoping one will run the other is not
> the
> > > way that you're supposed to do it, so no surprises that it didn't work
> for
> > > you.
> > > > > - I'm not saying it does work, just from the very little I've heard
> > > there's a bit more to it than that.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > - Electrolysis is something I got involved in, as a friend of mine,
> > > tried it, same results as you, asked for help, got laughed at and
> lectured
> > > and had laws quoted at him to prove it is impossible to get more gas
> energy
> > > out than electrical energy in (to keep it simple) and by those laws it
> > > didn't work.
> > > > > - Because I had an R&D company and did product development and had
> > > meters, scopes etc and was used to setting up a logical test program he
> > > asked me to have a look and see if there was anything he had done that
> was
> > > obviously wrong. There wasn't, not by the basic splitting of water stuff
> I
> > > (and all of us) had been taught in high school.
> > > > > - I read the blurb that he had bought on line and it mentioned
> > > something that pinged my imagination, and something that as he had no
> > > experience in such things, did not consider to be important.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > - With the experience I had had in pump systems, I had seen
> mechanical
> > > resonance at it's best and worst and fully appreciated that a small
> amount
> > > of energy input can produce a disproportionate amount of energy
> appearing
> > > in a system if the parameters are right, and I don't mean by simple
> > > hydraulic multiplication.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > - I have also built an induction heater and have pondered the
> ability
> > > (of a close coupled coil to load system) to achieve roughly 5 times the
> > > heating effect of a resistive electrical heating system drawing the same
> > > current. Of course, this too is "not possible" and yet anyone can buy or
> > > make one and if built and operated properly can get the same results.
> > > > > - These of course use an electrically resonant circuit.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > - To cut a long story short unless the importance of electrical and
> > > mechanical resonance in systems is appreciated, (which has no place,
> > > constant or symbol in any traditional calculations or formulas that I
> have
> > > ever seen) they cannot be understood or replicated.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > - Once we made (after a lot more reading) a system that paid
> attention
> > > to those details we trebled the gas output which was over the
> theoretical
> > > using "normal" calculations, and as I understand it there are ways
> (untried
> > > by me) of preparing the metal tubes that increases output even further.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > - Just because a few snake oil salesmen jumped on bandwagons and
> sold
> > > devices that didn't live up to their over-the-top claims doesn't mean
> that
> > > the whole idea is wrong, just that they are.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > - Just because Mythbusters buys a shonky DIY kit/plans and also make
> > > it improperly without understanding what they're doing also doesn't mean
> > > that the whole idea is wrong, just that they are.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > - If we don't understand what we're doing we need someone around who
> > > can steer us in the right direction, help or teach us, but if that topic
> is
> > > slightly outside mainstream you'll get nothing positive, and surely
> anyone
> > > who is inquisitive and curious enough to want to try something should be
> > > encouraged, as who knows what they might come up with.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > - So much has been discovered, even in out time, by people doing
> what
> > > they shouldn't, usually in desperation as all the things they should
> have
> > > done had produced nothing.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 23 May 2013 01:03, stmbtwle <stmbtwle@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > James when I was a teenager I built a "rotoverter" out of a couple
> 3v
> > > electric motors. I coupled the shafts together so one motor would spin
> the
> > > other as a generator (DC motors can be used as generators) then I wired
> > > them together so the generator output would drive the motor, which would
> > > spin the generator, which would drive the motor, which would spin the
> > > generator, and so on. Then I ran it up to speed with a couple dry cells
> to
> > > get it started, and removed the batteries. It kept running.... for a few
> > > seconds. Electrical resistance, heat and friction killed it. I tried the
> > > electrolysis thing too, with a piece of aluminum and a piece of copper
> in
> > > sea water; that worked just about as well. Nikolai Tesla (a whole lot
> > > smarter than I am) tried the "radiant energy" thing. From what I
> understand
> > > it had promise but you have to have a transmitter (which requires fuel)
> and
> > > the whole thing is horribly inefficient. To be honest I think you'd have
> > > better luck with Magick.
> > > > >
> > > > > There IS a "radiant energy" system that DOES work and it's well
> > > proven; I have three; one actually drives one of my boats. Another keeps
> > > the lights on and the beer cold on my houseboat. Some people call it
> > > "solar", but you could also call it "fusion". The gods provide the
> radiant
> > > energy, you just collect it all week and store it in a battery, to be
> used
> > > when you want to play.
> > > > >
> > > > > My suggestion: Find an old aluminum pontoon boat (they're big,
> light,
> > > and don't require much power). Strip it down and build a rack overhead
> that
> > > will hold as many solar panels as you can fit within the dimensions of
> the
> > > boat. Install enough batteries to run your motor for a reasonable time,
> > > hook the panels up and park it in the sun for a week. By Saturday you'll
> > > have your "radiant energy boat". Some paint and foo-foo and you'll have
> a
> > > nifty rig that actually WORKS. Mine does; it's just a canoe with a
> trolling
> > > motor, but I haven't had to paddle or charge the batteries since I
> > > installed my "energy collector". I just park it in the sun, and it's
> ready
> > > to go when I am.
> > > > >
> > > > > Even the Wright Brothers did things one step at a time, and they
> were
> > > ultimately successful.
> > > > >
> > > > > Willie
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com, "james4078"
> <james4078@>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks for your input guys
> > > > > > If history teaches us anything it is truly that there is an answer
> > > to any and all questions, no matter how difficult they may be.
> > > > > > Perpetual motion is not something I'm looking to do.
> > > > > > I'm just trying to harness the energy that is there and funnel it
> to
> > > be usable for my situation.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > --- In mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com, Carter Quillen
> > > <twowheelinguy@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have to agree with your contention to round file the perpetual
> > > motion stuff but you can push a boat at pretty close to hull speed
> realtime
> > > off the sun with a full solar canopy. Despite a looong list of
> > > inefficiencies such as a shunt motor, lead acid batteries, spinning a
> big
> > > diesel driveline including a V-drive, and a 20 ton displacement, the Arc
> > > still works pretty good. Better than I thought it would actually.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > With lighter hulls, better motors, and elimination of the extra
> > > driveline components you have in a parallel hybrid configuration, solar
> > > powered boats can perform very well. This has been demostrated by a lot
> of
> > > other solar boats besides the Arc too.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > While James may be a bit sidetracked on a unicorn hunt, his
> basic
> > > idea of retrofitting old broken boats with alternative energy drive
> systems
> > > is sound. It does work and the idea of a never ending gas tank is very
> > > appealing. The techology only keeps getting better and I think you will
> be
> > > seeing a lot more solar electric boats on the water in the future.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Carter
> > > > > > > http://www.shipofimagination.blogspot.com/
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > From: stmbtwle <stmbtwle@>
> > > > >
> > > > > > > To: mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 8:28 AM
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] "Batteries Not Included"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sorry James but I have to agree with Julian. Have you done the
> > > math? If you want to charge your batteries by plugging into shore power
> you
> > > may have a nice electric boat, but you won't be able to fit enough solar
> > > panels or a big enough windmill to provide the power you need.
> > > "Rotoverter", "Ambient energy", "Radiant energy", "Electrolytic energy"
> all
> > > go in the same file with "Perpetual Motion".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Folks don't like to think about it, but there's a REASON our
> > > electric utilities haven't already switched over to those devices.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Willie
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com, "james4078"
> > > <james4078@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks for the words of wisdom.
> > > > > > > > I have a few emails that I would rather soon forget but that
> > > comes with the territory.
> > > > > > > > I was kind of hoping to get a better reaction from this group
> > > than some of the others.
> > > > > > > > With 3845 members you would think that most would like to get
> > > some new information on a project such as this.
> > > > > > > > Well I will be glad to hear from you and as always do what you
> > > can when you can.
> > > > > > > > Thanks for the help
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > James
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com, Julian Webb
> > > <julian.proto@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > hi james
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > - just had a read of your crowd funding page, and my first
> > > piece of advice
> > > > > > > > > is to be very careful of your wording there, here and
> > > everywhere.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > - i'm not sure what your actual energy
> > > source/plan/generating/harnessing
> > > > > > > > > ideas are but unless you want to be written off, ridiculed,
> > > abused or at
> > > > > > > > > best condescendingly lectured to, don't ever use the word
> > > "energy" in the
> > > > > > > > > same sentence with other words such as "alternative",
> > > "unlimited" or heaven
> > > > > > > > > forbid "free".
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > - irrespective of what you meant, it will be assumed you
> that
> > > you have
> > > > > > > > > either never heard of newton or maxwell or you just didn't
> get
> > > it, and you
> > > > > > > > > will incur the wrath of educated non-thinkers who are so
> eager
> > > to show what
> > > > > > > > > they learned at school that they won't wait to ask you the
> how
> > > or what of
> > > > > > > > > what you meant or are doing but will trip over themselves at
> > > the
> > > > > > > > > opportunity make themselves sound smart by making you sound
> > > stupid.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > - open minded, unbiased, ego free help with anything "a bit
> > > different" is
> > > > > > > > > hard to find and if i can be of any help please email me on
> > > > > > > > > everhopeful@ and if i can't i'll try to point you somewhere
> > > that
> > > > > > > > > can.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > cheers
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On 19 May 2013 03:53, james4078 <james4078@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > **
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Greetings from Florida everyone.
> > > > > > > > > > I've been a member of this group for some time now and I
> try
> > > to help out
> > > > > > > > > > when I can.
> > > > > > > > > > Now I am asking for all your help.
> > > > > > > > > > As there is not much technical data available for us
> > > electric boaters I am
> > > > > > > > > > assembling a project that will provide much needed data.
> > > > > > > > > > I have been working alone on this for close to 3 years and
> > > now I want to
> > > > > > > > > > get it finished and create a data bank of some sort for
> all
> > > electric boater
> > > > > > > > > > out there.
> > > > > > > > > > Here is a link to our crowd funding project, once done all
> > > data will be
> > > > > > > > > > readily available "open source"
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/alternative-energy-source--2/x/3222114
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I will also be looking for some technical expertise for
> > > those that want to
> > > > > > > > > > offer that.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Thanks again
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > James
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > project #2
> > > > > > > > > >
> > >
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/photos/album/547817076/pic/list
> > > > > > > > > > project #1
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > >
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/photos/album/1200862879/pic/list
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > It has been too long between projects
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > http://www.proto.eu.com/ ltd
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > unit 9 Somerton Industrial Estate, Belfast, BT3 9JP, U.K.
> > > > > > > > > Phone; (+44) 02895 811251 - Mobile; (+44) 07427 696 796 -
> Fax;
> > > > > > > > > (+44) 0871 9898296
> > > > > > > > > Company number; NI067673 VAT number; GB975375474
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.proto.eu.com/ ltd
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > unit 9 Somerton Industrial Estate, Belfast, BT3 9JP, U.K.
> > > > > Phone; (+44) 02895 811251 - Mobile; (+44) 07427 696 796 - Fax; (+44)
> > > 0871 9898296
> > > > > Company number; NI067673 VAT number; GB975375474
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > www.proto.eu.com <http://www.proto.eu.com> ltd
> >
> > unit 9 Somerton Industrial Estate, Belfast, BT3 9JP, U.K.
> > Phone; (+44) 02895 811251 - Mobile; (+44) 07427 696 796 - Fax;
> > (+44) 0871 9898296
> > Company number; NI067673 VAT number; GB975375474
> >
>