Yes. Science is about working for incremental advances with what we know while also keeping an eye out for the "game changing" advance
I also have sympathy - but not an inexhaustible supply - for those who want to leap forward without studying what we already know.
Roger L.
----- Original Message -----
From: cireSent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 5:41 AMSubject: Re: [Electric Boats] "Batteries Not Included"Not that James is a peer, from what he has posted, he is not even close, but I would suggest that you look at some serious peer reviews of real research. It can be and often is brutal; and that is ok. Science is not about playing nice in the sand box.
For the most part the reviews of James' work have been rather respectful though I must admit that some of mine has not been.
As I sit here at anchor on the Rhode River I can hear geese, I don't care what anyone else wants to call them, the community in which we live calls them geese. When I read someone describe a PMM, I don't care what he wants to call it, it's still a PMM.
As a scientist and engineer and someone who has taught research methodology, I have little patience - though I wish I had more - with someone who has not bothered to at least review the literature before jumping in to 'reinvent the wheel'.
All that being said, I actually hope James has hit onto something and will have no problem congratulating him if he has. Engineering is not about being right but getting it right.
eric SV Meander
--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Julan Webb <julian.proto@...> wrote:
>
> James
>
> - At the risk of saying "I told you so", any proof you offer here will be
> discounted without regard, as the educated critics will know without
> looking, that the proof you offered must be fake,
> - For anybody to dimiss something that they have no personal experience or
> knowledge of is of course unscientific but those who "know" what will work
> and what won't, will call their close minded responses...........
> scientific.
>
> - Now you will have learned what's "acceptable" to talk about and what's
> not, you should be able work out the topics you will benefit from by
> posting here.
>
> - By now you should have been to the websites that specialise in the sorts
> of topics that have drawn unconstructive input here? If not do so now.
> There's advice, test reports, real world testing with figures etc and their
> not trying to sell you anything.
>
> Julian
>
>
>
> On 24 May 2013 17:19, james4078 <james4078@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > I'm a little perplexed to the thinking of some of you reading and
> > contributing to this stimulating subject.
> > Perpetual Motion
> > Creating energy
> > Laws of thermo-dynamics
> > Unicorns and Magic
> > I spoke of none of these yet some of you interpret what you are reading in
> > your own way.
> > I have received 3 useful pieces information the rest is just people
> > spewing their own ignorance to topics they cannot admit they know nothing
> > about or do not understand.
> > I have admitted there is one energy source that I am attempting to use
> > that I do not fully understand... The deliverance circuit.
> > Everything else is verifiable, it is the missing usable data I am after. I
> > am not looking to discover anything that is not already there. I just want
> > to expand on it and use it.
> > If you have no useful comments to contribute then please keep your
> > opinions to yourself.
> >
> > Thanks you
> >
> > James
> >
> > --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "cire" <cirejay@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Oh ye of little faith:-).
> > >
> > > eric SV Meander
> >
> > >
> > > --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Roger L" <rogerlov@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Well, add this old-time traditional engineer to the group who finds
> > the Perpetual Motion Clubsters to be an interesting lot - at least some of
> > the time. Why not? After all, anyone who reads a bit of modern quantum
> > mechanics is already at least half way to never-never land.
> > > >
> > > > A new friend who came over to dinner at our place the other night
> > turned out to be a fully fledged member of the PM Club. While he talked,
> > what began to fascinate me was not his opinions as much as a sudden
> > realization that the way he presented his opinions sounded so familiar. In
> > fact, even the cadence of his argument and the posture of his presentation
> > struck me as being surprisingly similar to other perpetual motion/free
> > energy proponents I've heard and read over the years. Is deja vu the same
> > as magic? And why do they believe in PM anyway?
> > > >
> > > > Now I wish I'd asked him that very question. Maybe next time.
> > > > Roger L.
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Carter Quillen
> > > > To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 11:27 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] "Batteries Not Included"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Well this post might not make me any new friends but when it comes to
> > the rotoverter, I'm not ashamed to be the guy "who dares to be stupid
> > enough to say that they are"... SNAKE OIL.
> > > >
> > > > I don't want to dampen anyone's enthusiasm for exploring the unknown
> > but some things are what some things are so why waste your time chasing
> > unicorns when there are some seriously fat cows that really are out there
> > waiting to be slaughtered. Maybe the better question should be: Do you
> > believe in magic?
> > > > I do not.
> > > >
> > > > I don't believe we get to break the laws of thermodynamic in this
> > plane of existence and I'm not ashamed to say it. You can game them six
> > ways to Sunday, but you don't get to flat out break them and that's what
> > the rotoverter claims to do.
> > > >
> > > > Here's a simple example of what I'm talking about: Paraphasing the
> > second law of thermodynamics, "Energy flows from hot to cold and the rate
> > at which it travels is proportional to the difference in temperature." On
> > the surface, the ordinary refrigerator appears to break this law by
> > removing heat from the freezer which is cold and making it flow into the
> > room, which is hot, exactly opposite of the 2nd law. Although this seems to
> > contradict the second law of thermodynamics, it really doesn't and I won't
> > bore everyone with an explanation of the how and why but my point is that
> > this system only "appears" to break the laws of nature, it actually
> > doesn't.
> > > >
> > > > The rotoverter, as advertized on the internet, is a perpetual motion
> > machine, modern day snake oil at it's best but, like unicorns, it doesn't
> > exist. Maybe if you built one with superconductive windings and flooded it
> > in liquid nitrogen, then configured it to somehow be harmonic or resonant
> > with the natural frequency of the universe to absorb cosmic radiation, who
> > knows,maybe you could capture some mystery energy from somewhere but the
> > energy has to come from somewhere, you don't get to "create" it. And that's
> > not just my opinion, it is supported by hundreds of years of empirical
> > data. There are many unsolved mysteries in this world but the "rotoverter"
> > is not one of them. From everything I know about it, which admittedly is
> > somewhat limited, it is just a brilliant and lucrative gimmick. I would
> > welcome anyone to actually prove me wrong on that though.
> > > >
> > > > I am certainly NOT someone "who is arrogant enough to state that they
> > know all energies and their manifestations that our universe has to offer",
> > but I'm pretty confident I know snake oil when I see it.
> > > >
> > > > Rather than wasting his time on the rotoverter, I would challenge
> > James to work on figuring out a way to make a solar collector that is 50%
> > efficient instead of 14%. That innovation would make the typical solar
> > canopy put out 3 times more energy and at 50% eff. it doesn't even come
> > close to violating any physical laws of nature.
> > > >
> > > > Or perhaps cobble together a simple and innovative electric drive
> > system that can be easily and cost effectively adapted to some of these old
> > boats that are just sitting around wasting away. That transom extension he
> > came up with looks like a good start on that idea.
> > > >
> > > > These type of things are doable. "Creating" energy is not.
> > > >
> > > > As I've said before, I think he's on to something with his idea of
> > retrofitting old boats with alterative energy drives systems. But I also
> > believe he has a better chance for success if he forgets about trying to
> > use a unicorn... errr "rotoverter" in his designs.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Carter Quillen, P.E.
> > > > http://www.shipofimagination.com/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: Julian Webb <julian.proto@>
> > > > To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 5:11 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] "Batteries Not Included"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi Willie
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - I'm not meaning to be rude with this next sentence, but if you "try"
> > something and do it incorrectly it doesn't mean the theory is not right, it
> > means you're not, and worse you're going o become a wonderful validator for
> > the "I told you so" brigade.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - If you tried to make something as simple as a blender without the
> > correct plans or help how successful do you think it would be? That should
> > not mean the concept of a blender was wrong or that we should stick to
> > knives.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - As I said, although I haven't tried the Roto-Verter, I know simply
> > hooking a motor to a generator and hoping one will run the other is not the
> > way that you're supposed to do it, so no surprises that it didn't work for
> > you.
> > > > - I'm not saying it does work, just from the very little I've heard
> > there's a bit more to it than that.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - Electrolysis is something I got involved in, as a friend of mine,
> > tried it, same results as you, asked for help, got laughed at and lectured
> > and had laws quoted at him to prove it is impossible to get more gas energy
> > out than electrical energy in (to keep it simple) and by those laws it
> > didn't work.
> > > > - Because I had an R&D company and did product development and had
> > meters, scopes etc and was used to setting up a logical test program he
> > asked me to have a look and see if there was anything he had done that was
> > obviously wrong. There wasn't, not by the basic splitting of water stuff I
> > (and all of us) had been taught in high school.
> > > > - I read the blurb that he had bought on line and it mentioned
> > something that pinged my imagination, and something that as he had no
> > experience in such things, did not consider to be important.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - With the experience I had had in pump systems, I had seen mechanical
> > resonance at it's best and worst and fully appreciated that a small amount
> > of energy input can produce a disproportionate amount of energy appearing
> > in a system if the parameters are right, and I don't mean by simple
> > hydraulic multiplication.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - I have also built an induction heater and have pondered the ability
> > (of a close coupled coil to load system) to achieve roughly 5 times the
> > heating effect of a resistive electrical heating system drawing the same
> > current. Of course, this too is "not possible" and yet anyone can buy or
> > make one and if built and operated properly can get the same results.
> > > > - These of course use an electrically resonant circuit.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - To cut a long story short unless the importance of electrical and
> > mechanical resonance in systems is appreciated, (which has no place,
> > constant or symbol in any traditional calculations or formulas that I have
> > ever seen) they cannot be understood or replicated.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - Once we made (after a lot more reading) a system that paid attention
> > to those details we trebled the gas output which was over the theoretical
> > using "normal" calculations, and as I understand it there are ways (untried
> > by me) of preparing the metal tubes that increases output even further.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - Just because a few snake oil salesmen jumped on bandwagons and sold
> > devices that didn't live up to their over-the-top claims doesn't mean that
> > the whole idea is wrong, just that they are.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - Just because Mythbusters buys a shonky DIY kit/plans and also make
> > it improperly without understanding what they're doing also doesn't mean
> > that the whole idea is wrong, just that they are.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - If we don't understand what we're doing we need someone around who
> > can steer us in the right direction, help or teach us, but if that topic is
> > slightly outside mainstream you'll get nothing positive, and surely anyone
> > who is inquisitive and curious enough to want to try something should be
> > encouraged, as who knows what they might come up with.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - So much has been discovered, even in out time, by people doing what
> > they shouldn't, usually in desperation as all the things they should have
> > done had produced nothing.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Cheers
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 23 May 2013 01:03, stmbtwle <stmbtwle@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > James when I was a teenager I built a "rotoverter" out of a couple 3v
> > electric motors. I coupled the shafts together so one motor would spin the
> > other as a generator (DC motors can be used as generators) then I wired
> > them together so the generator output would drive the motor, which would
> > spin the generator, which would drive the motor, which would spin the
> > generator, and so on. Then I ran it up to speed with a couple dry cells to
> > get it started, and removed the batteries. It kept running.... for a few
> > seconds. Electrical resistance, heat and friction killed it. I tried the
> > electrolysis thing too, with a piece of aluminum and a piece of copper in
> > sea water; that worked just about as well. Nikolai Tesla (a whole lot
> > smarter than I am) tried the "radiant energy" thing. From what I understand
> > it had promise but you have to have a transmitter (which requires fuel) and
> > the whole thing is horribly inefficient. To be honest I think you'd have
> > better luck with Magick.
> > > >
> > > > There IS a "radiant energy" system that DOES work and it's well
> > proven; I have three; one actually drives one of my boats. Another keeps
> > the lights on and the beer cold on my houseboat. Some people call it
> > "solar", but you could also call it "fusion". The gods provide the radiant
> > energy, you just collect it all week and store it in a battery, to be used
> > when you want to play.
> > > >
> > > > My suggestion: Find an old aluminum pontoon boat (they're big, light,
> > and don't require much power). Strip it down and build a rack overhead that
> > will hold as many solar panels as you can fit within the dimensions of the
> > boat. Install enough batteries to run your motor for a reasonable time,
> > hook the panels up and park it in the sun for a week. By Saturday you'll
> > have your "radiant energy boat". Some paint and foo-foo and you'll have a
> > nifty rig that actually WORKS. Mine does; it's just a canoe with a trolling
> > motor, but I haven't had to paddle or charge the batteries since I
> > installed my "energy collector". I just park it in the sun, and it's ready
> > to go when I am.
> > > >
> > > > Even the Wright Brothers did things one step at a time, and they were
> > ultimately successful.
> > > >
> > > > Willie
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com, "james4078" <james4078@>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for your input guys
> > > > > If history teaches us anything it is truly that there is an answer
> > to any and all questions, no matter how difficult they may be.
> > > > > Perpetual motion is not something I'm looking to do.
> > > > > I'm just trying to harness the energy that is there and funnel it to
> > be usable for my situation.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > --- In mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com, Carter Quillen
> > <twowheelinguy@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have to agree with your contention to round file the perpetual
> > motion stuff but you can push a boat at pretty close to hull speed realtime
> > off the sun with a full solar canopy. Despite a looong list of
> > inefficiencies such as a shunt motor, lead acid batteries, spinning a big
> > diesel driveline including a V-drive, and a 20 ton displacement, the Arc
> > still works pretty good. Better than I thought it would actually.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > With lighter hulls, better motors, and elimination of the extra
> > driveline components you have in a parallel hybrid configuration, solar
> > powered boats can perform very well. This has been demostrated by a lot of
> > other solar boats besides the Arc too.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > While James may be a bit sidetracked on a unicorn hunt, his basic
> > idea of retrofitting old broken boats with alternative energy drive systems
> > is sound. It does work and the idea of a never ending gas tank is very
> > appealing. The techology only keeps getting better and I think you will be
> > seeing a lot more solar electric boats on the water in the future.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Carter
> > > > > > http://www.shipofimagination.blogspot.com/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > From: stmbtwle <stmbtwle@>
> > > >
> > > > > > To: mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 8:28 AM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] "Batteries Not Included"
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sorry James but I have to agree with Julian. Have you done the
> > math? If you want to charge your batteries by plugging into shore power you
> > may have a nice electric boat, but you won't be able to fit enough solar
> > panels or a big enough windmill to provide the power you need.
> > "Rotoverter", "Ambient energy", "Radiant energy", "Electrolytic energy" all
> > go in the same file with "Perpetual Motion".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Folks don't like to think about it, but there's a REASON our
> > electric utilities haven't already switched over to those devices.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Willie
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com, "james4078"
> > <james4078@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks for the words of wisdom.
> > > > > > > I have a few emails that I would rather soon forget but that
> > comes with the territory.
> > > > > > > I was kind of hoping to get a better reaction from this group
> > than some of the others.
> > > > > > > With 3845 members you would think that most would like to get
> > some new information on a project such as this.
> > > > > > > Well I will be glad to hear from you and as always do what you
> > can when you can.
> > > > > > > Thanks for the help
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > James
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com, Julian Webb
> > <julian.proto@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > hi james
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > - just had a read of your crowd funding page, and my first
> > piece of advice
> > > > > > > > is to be very careful of your wording there, here and
> > everywhere.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > - i'm not sure what your actual energy
> > source/plan/generating/harnessing
> > > > > > > > ideas are but unless you want to be written off, ridiculed,
> > abused or at
> > > > > > > > best condescendingly lectured to, don't ever use the word
> > "energy" in the
> > > > > > > > same sentence with other words such as "alternative",
> > "unlimited" or heaven
> > > > > > > > forbid "free".
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > - irrespective of what you meant, it will be assumed you that
> > you have
> > > > > > > > either never heard of newton or maxwell or you just didn't get
> > it, and you
> > > > > > > > will incur the wrath of educated non-thinkers who are so eager
> > to show what
> > > > > > > > they learned at school that they won't wait to ask you the how
> > or what of
> > > > > > > > what you meant or are doing but will trip over themselves at
> > the
> > > > > > > > opportunity make themselves sound smart by making you sound
> > stupid.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > - open minded, unbiased, ego free help with anything "a bit
> > different" is
> > > > > > > > hard to find and if i can be of any help please email me on
> > > > > > > > everhopeful@ and if i can't i'll try to point you somewhere
> > that
> > > > > > > > can.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > cheers
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On 19 May 2013 03:53, james4078 <james4078@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > **
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Greetings from Florida everyone.
> > > > > > > > > I've been a member of this group for some time now and I try
> > to help out
> > > > > > > > > when I can.
> > > > > > > > > Now I am asking for all your help.
> > > > > > > > > As there is not much technical data available for us
> > electric boaters I am
> > > > > > > > > assembling a project that will provide much needed data.
> > > > > > > > > I have been working alone on this for close to 3 years and
> > now I want to
> > > > > > > > > get it finished and create a data bank of some sort for all
> > electric boater
> > > > > > > > > out there.
> > > > > > > > > Here is a link to our crowd funding project, once done all
> > data will be
> > > > > > > > > readily available "open source"
> > > > > > > > >
> > http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/alternative-energy-source--2/x/3222114
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I will also be looking for some technical expertise for
> > those that want to
> > > > > > > > > offer that.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks again
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > James
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > project #2
> > > > > > > > >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/photos/album/547817076/pic/list
> > > > > > > > > project #1
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/photos/album/1200862879/pic/list
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > It has been too long between projects
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > http://www.proto.eu.com/ ltd
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > unit 9 Somerton Industrial Estate, Belfast, BT3 9JP, U.K.
> > > > > > > > Phone; (+44) 02895 811251 - Mobile; (+44) 07427 696 796 - Fax;
> > > > > > > > (+44) 0871 9898296
> > > > > > > > Company number; NI067673 VAT number; GB975375474
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > http://www.proto.eu.com/ ltd
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > unit 9 Somerton Industrial Estate, Belfast, BT3 9JP, U.K.
> > > > Phone; (+44) 02895 811251 - Mobile; (+44) 07427 696 796 - Fax; (+44)
> > 0871 9898296
> > > > Company number; NI067673 VAT number; GB975375474
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> www.proto.eu.com ltd
>
> unit 9 Somerton Industrial Estate, Belfast, BT3 9JP, U.K.
> Phone; (+44) 02895 811251 - Mobile; (+44) 07427 696 796 - Fax;
> (+44) 0871 9898296
> Company number; NI067673 VAT number; GB975375474
>
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