T-Pain Is On A Boat: August 2024

Wednesday, August 28, 2024

Re: [electricboats] Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?

It's not common to see a +48v/-48v bipolar power supply. But, charging a +96v/0v is no different than charging a +48v/-48v system. Isolated components (those that do not bond one rail or the other to its case and expect that to be the 0v reference/safety ground) work in either configuration. Non-isolated components are not suitable for use in a bipolar power supply system but work in a normal system. In either case, you still need the voltage difference to go up to ~116vdc to get a full charge. The same solar array configuration will work for both. Btw, I don't use two 48v chargers in series to get 96v, just isolated 96v chargers.

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Tuesday, August 27, 2024

Re: [electricboats] Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?

For you guys building the 96vdc setups:

Is everyone considering doing a center tapped 96vdc/48vdc battery setup? Any other solution with a large 96v bank aboard seems difficult to charge with solar.

Thanks!

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Wednesday, August 21, 2024

Re: [electricboats] Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?

Yes, Volvo 120S. I'm hoping to get to it this winter.

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Tuesday, August 20, 2024

Re: [electricboats] Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?

I would be interested in seeing photos of sketches of the installation directly to the saildrive. Seems like this whole approachwould be potential install with a lot of interest. there a re lot of saildrives out there. IS it a volvo saildrive?

From: electricboats@groups.io <electricboats@groups.io> on behalf of Randy Cain via groups.io <randylcain=gmail.com@groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2024 4:42 AM
To: electricboats@groups.io <electricboats@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [electricboats] Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?

⚠ CAUTION: This email originated from an external sender. Verify the source before opening links or attachments. ⚠

I removed the transmissions and am having a jackshaft made so that the motor's shafts are pointed up. I haven't built those yet though. My plan includes keeping the jackshaft bearings in an oil bath.

Re: [electricboats] Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?

I removed the transmissions and am having a jackshaft made so that the motor's shafts are pointed up. I haven't built those yet though. My plan includes keeping the jackshaft bearings in an oil bath.

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Monday, August 19, 2024

Re: [electricboats] Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?

are you mating the ME1616s to the saildrives and keeping the transmission for FWD REV etc or going straight to the drive leg?

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Re: [electricboats] Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?

Ahhh make much more sense when i thnk about it like 240 and 120VAC. L1 L2 and N. then a case ground for 48vdc breakers etc?

THANK YOU!

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Re: [electricboats] Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?

I installed one, but my boat is still on the hard, so I don't know how it will perform yet I bought a kit from thunderstruct_ev. They configured it for 96v. I bench tested it before putting in my boat and it ran as expected. My sailboat is 45', 13 tons. I plan to use 32 EVE prismatic cells @280 amp hours.

On Tue, Aug 13, 2024, 8:56 AM Charlie via groups.io <cp3sail=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

Anyone with ME1616 experience?

I am planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available?

I tend to believe only the most conservative numbers, so I saw a post in EV Europe listing it as 6kW continuous when run at 48V with 2000rpm listed. (assuming it cant go faster than 2000 rpm at 48VDC?)

Here is the verbage:

Power max 50kW@96V

Power continuous 6kW@48VDC – 2000rpm – 12 kW@96VDC – 4000rpm

And the site: https://eveurope.eu/en/product/me1616-pmac-engine-water-cooled-22-kwatt/

I would love to go to 96VDC but I do not think that is wise for all of the accessory systems on the boat and since i always find a way to arc something despite precautions.

Any other 48vdc recommendations? Thank you!!

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Re: [electricboats] Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?

Just a FB page for now: https://www.facebook.com/MVMaritima

Bipolar DC power is common in many devices that have audio power amplifiers. The important specifics is that the components that attach are all isolated. That is, no assumption that the negative is going to be the ground connection. Electrically, it's the DC equivalent of the 240VAC Split Phase system we use in the US where we have 2 hots and a neutral that's created by a center-tapped transformer.

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Sunday, August 18, 2024

Re: [electricboats] Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?

Wow, Randy do you have a blog on this build?

Sounds like its going to move with authority!

I read up a bit but the internet quickly divulges into naysayers on the hot rail tapping threads. I would be very interested in understanding how this wiring works! Thanks!

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Re: [electricboats] Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?

ok so Dan I gave your Electric over hydraulic idea more thought and it could be a really good way to tip toe into going electric on this boat. I like the small steps. I have been the 6month haulout guy before. I have been the 5yr refit guy. Once the sawzalls come out and the tent goes up the boat doesn't see the light of day for many moons. ;)

I also posted this over in DIY electric car as a read a few hydraulic conversion threads there with folks using skid steers and tractors to go electric.

Here is how i see it working:

Aux propulsion setup. Catamaran, 56ft long 26,000lbs, 2.5'draft
It is already hydraulic.
It has one 85hp engine, coupled to two hydraulic pumps(valved for FWD and REV), hosed to 2 gearmotors, bolted to saildrive propeller units.
 
I would like to start small, as in just enough power and $$ to get the boat on and off of a dock in a clean smokeless fashion. I can run the diesel and its pumps when offshore for now.
 
The current setup uses Parker/Denison gear motors bolted to the saildrive propeller units. (photo below) They move 28mL per revolution.(1.7cubic inches)
 
I thought that the simplest way to add an electric motor would be to do so at the engine, but alas the engine is directly coupled to the hydraulic pumps. I would need to decouple and put that on a clutch. Or remove the engine completely. If i remove the engine completely i need a big electric motor to run Two hydraulic pumps, so then i would rather just put smaller electric motors right at the final drives anyways. This is the end goal in a year or so. Just electric motors at the final drives. But for the short term i would like to get comfortable with electric drives, larger battery banks, larger solar etc before going purely electric.
- So i bailed on that and decided to try to add small electric motors closer to the final hydraulic motors.
 
- The props get the boat moving well at 600-1000rpms, and there is a bit of reduction in the saildrives. So I figured that I would need to get these existing gearmotors to spin at about 800-1200rpms to get the boat to move. So thats around 10gpm max i would need from an auxiliary pump to do it. (At 1000rpm the existing gearmotors are spinning 28,000mL thats 7.3Gallons.)
 
So i have repaired excavator hydraulics and saw mill hydraulics, but am not very familiar with the tech as a whole.
- Can i just add a hydraulic pump Tee'd into the system as planned? If i add a tee, I will add a check valve, and then i need to decide where to pickup fluid from. Can I pull fluid through the whole system (cooler, old pumps, etc) via what is normally the fluid output line?-By teeing in upstream of the new checkvalve? (please see terrible sketch #1 alas i see no way to run this in REVERSE)

- Otherwise I can isolate the new system with solenoids (ref: terrible sketch #2)
 
So if that above does work, then I just need a motor to spin it. I currently use 2000rpm on the diesel to run the whole kit at crusing speed. Thats 40kW, so 20kW per hull. I don't need to match that, Half of that or less is good for these auxillary units. So 10kW per hull.
 
So i found the ME0708 and all of its siblings. 48VDC & that seems to be ideal especially if i plan to go all electric in the future.
 
Now, lastly the power band for the ME0708, it likes to run at higher speeds, 2000-4000rpms. So I chose a bi-directional hydraulic gearpump that moves 1/3 the fluid as the current Parker/Denison gearmotors. That way my new pump spins 3x as fast. So the ME0708 can spin 2000-4000rpms.
 
So I found an Honor Hydraulics gearpump, it moves 0.52 cubic inches per revolution (8.4mL plenty small)
Honor 2MM1U08.

Also added a high pressure accumulator. There is no cooling as i hope to only use it for 10-20minutes at a time.

PARKER Diaphragm Accumulator: 10 cu in Fluid Volume, 10 cu in, 11 gpm Max. Flow
Item 6NZK0 Mfr. Model AD016B25T9A1
 
So thats my tenative plan:
ME0708
Sevcon 4q reversable controller 
Honor 8.4cc pump
tee's, solenoid valves, hoses.
lovejoy coupler.
 

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Friday, August 16, 2024

Re: [electricboats] Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?

I'm building a 96v as +48 & -48 dual hot rail system by tapping the middle of the battery for the safety ground. The boat is a converted Endeavour 34 catamaran and will have dual ME1616 motors on saildrives. There will be 4x 34S 280Ah LiFePO4 DIY batteries. Both positive and negative are hot and have their own disconnects (fuses, breakers, contactors and disconnect switches). Sevcon motor controllers, inverters, converters, chargers and solar charge controllers are 96v isolated versions so they work with the +-48v.

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Thursday, August 15, 2024

Re: [electricboats] Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?

good to know! Thanks Bob.

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Re: [electricboats] Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?

48VDC is not as dangerous as 96VDC.

There's obviously a lot more to it than that, but that's a simple summarization.

Example: you can put your dry hands on 48VDC with little effect (one hand positive, one hand negative). Don't try that with 96VDC.

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Re: [electricboats] Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?

i just want to revisit the voltage for a minute here,

everyone is running 48VDC correct?

The motor companies and a few writeups outline 96vdc and the power looks much more promising. But i don't want to endanger my family with anything. The guys at thunderstruck told me that 48VDC was just as dangerous as 96VDC if i had a short to the water and a swimmer was in the path. So that was a bit of a drag. If i am already in dangerous territory of 96VDC it is. But i really dont believe that 48 is a dangerous as 96. Thoughts?

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Wednesday, August 14, 2024

Re: [electricboats] Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?

Thanks everyone!

Dan, those charts from the curtis dyno are fantastic. Thanks! I can see how they align with your systems rpms.

Do you have links to the site with that data? Is it from Curtis direct? i just want to save it for more reference.

You are running Sevcon for controller though right?

And yes i concur, bigger props, going slower = more efficient. That's why the human powered boats guys use 4ft diameter props right? NOW I would love to get into that and take a dive or surface piercing efficiency, but i just have to hold back and tell myself that its time to get the boat moving and go catch a sunset and a fish or two first.

It seems like for the ME1616s according to the Curtis charts the sweet spot is around 1200-2200rpms. Granted i don't know where the Sevcon puts them but thats probably close...? right?

So, for this project i guess first i have to tear things apart and figure out what the saildrive reduction is, if any.

and yes actually i did mock up putting a secondary hydraulic pump tee'd into the system. Then running it with a ME1616. That really could work with a few hoses and check valves. It may be the simplest. Good idea.

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Re: [electricboats] Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?

The use of a 7/8" keyed shaft for an electric drive predates ME1616 by decades. Several of the currently available motors not only spec'd that shaft size/style but also mounting hole pattern which was used well before this with the Briggs and Stratton (circa 2000 thru 2006?) ETEK brush motor (which I still use now 21 years later). And even those B&S motors were stemming off the hole patterns and shaft size/style commonly used by Advanced DC Motors---the 1^st motor I used when I converted my outboard to electric in early 2003 was a surplus "ex-Tropica EV" motor made by Advanced DC Motors. I was very pleased later that year when I learned that the ETEK permag brushmotor was rated at higher continuous output, much higher efficiency (cooler), was 40# lighter and smaller and used the exact same mounting hole pattern and shaft size/style as the ADC motors. These ADC motors date back to the 90's or earlier. So it's nicely been a common pattern to work with for sub-15kw or so power levels.

From: electricboats@groups.io [mailto:electricboats@groups.io] On Behalf Of Charlie
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2024 10:44 PM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?

The really enticing thing is:

The current hydraulic motors here, they have 7/8" SAE(B) keyed output shafts going down into the saildrives. Just like the ME1616.

Re: [electricboats] Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?

Yeah, and these weak links end up failing at the worst possible time---e.g. shear pins. I've blown the shear pin on my outboard many times just as I was panicking about backing into a dock or something else---without thinking, suddenly shifting into forward and BZZZZZ, shear pin snaps and the motor spins free and boat keeps drifting. It takes me about 10 minutes to swap out the shear pin on my boat when this happens. Always be ready to throw a rope or drop an anchor.

I imagine it could take longer than 10 minutes to swap out a shreaded belt. And more costly---I'm using old drill bits as shear pins these days and they still wear out and snap.

Myles

16' wooden scow The Reach Of Tide www.evalbum.com/492 (converted to electric in 2003)

Motor: ETEK 8HP made by Briggs and Stratton, rated at 8HP continuous, 48v

Currently on my 4^th set of brushes with 2 spare sets onboard.

Can cruise at 6knots at about 5kwatt; short runs at 7knots with 10kwatt

Pack: 30kwh ex-THINK Enerdel lithium ion pack

From: electricboats@groups.io [mailto:electricboats@groups.io] On Behalf Of Dan Pfeiffer
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2024 10:46 AM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?

Another point about the belt drive. I wouldn't over-build that to make it too strong. It is the weak point in the drive train and if the prop became tangled or hit something the belt would probably shred before other components got damaged. That seems like a desirable outcome to me? Belts are cheap.

Dan Pfeiffer

On 2024-08-14 10:02 am, Dan Pfeiffer wrote:

At 5.5 knots motor RPM is about 1800. Reduction is 3:1 so prop is at 600.

I designed my system to get the motor into a good efficiency range at my operational speeds based on the motor data from Motenergy. See attached. No mysteries about the ME1616 performance parameters. To be outside that efficiency range means more heat. You can do it but it costs. There's also prop efficiency to consider. I have an 18" prop and wanted it spinning slower than it did with the diesel. I am at 800 max now (was 1200 with diesel). Prop pitch is a bit less precise with slip considerations but I think I have it all dialed in pretty well now. The reduction gear (3:1 belt drive for me) is another tool to fine tune it all. How do you do that with direct drive? Change the motor windings? That's not an option with the ME1616.

I suppose the belt drive adds noise but it's still a lot quieter than the diesel. And if I really enclosed the compartment with sound proofing (none now) it could be close to silent which turns out to be a bit of a problem when your trying to understand what is happening in operation. Even with a little sea noise it can be hard to tell. So be careful what you wish for.

So my setup is designed around a max motor RPM of 2400 at 48V. The reduction gear was chosen to get my prop RPM to max at 800 and prop pitch was set to get me about 7 knots at max. I had expectations of performance based on data I collected from every similar installation I could find and my system has exceeded expectations. I think a lot of that is because my prop diameter and pitch are better matched to the system than average. A lot of folks are just using the prop that they had with the diesel but now have different RPM profiles and things don't match as well. So spend some time on that for best results.
Do you know what the reduction gearing is in your sail drives? Perhaps it's in a range that will get you a proper match with direct connection of the ME1616. But probably not?   I don't know the relevant parameters of your boat and sail drives and props. And even if I did I might not be able to make anything of them.   Could you drive the hydraulic system with the ME1616?   I have no idea if that's even worth considering.

Dan Pfeiffer

On 2024-08-14 12:40 am, Charlie wrote:
Dan do you know what speed your motor is spinning at for the 3kW at 5.5kts?

I saw your gear reduction unit and I am trying to decide if i need to build that as well. To get the rotor rpms up where the motor is happier to run at.
- (Also is that true for this ME1616? are motors happier at higher RPMs? I thought DC motors were happy to put out torque at low rpms?.. but everyting i have read recently says keep the RPMs in an efficient band which is elusive to ascertain.

So i am trying to find out where the motors are running at RPM wise and if I should direct couple or gear down the motor. Then if I gear down (which seems logical now) to which RPM range am I calculating towards?

Thanks guys!

- This boat is a catamaran, has very interesting hydraulic drives at the moment. Has standard saildrives mated to the hydraulic gearmotors like on a piece of farm equip. Very compact and tidy but not very efficient.

Re: [electricboats] Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?

On 2024-08-14 10:02 am, Dan Pfeiffer wrote:

At 5.5 knots motor RPM is about 1800. Reduction is 3:1 so prop is at 600.

I designed my system to get the motor into a good efficiency range at my operational speeds based on the motor data from Motenergy. See attached. No mysteries about the ME1616 performance parameters. To be outside that efficiency range means more heat. You can do it but it costs. There's also prop efficiency to consider. I have an 18" prop and wanted it spinning slower than it did with the diesel. I am at 800 max now (was 1200 with diesel). Prop pitch is a bit less precise with slip considerations but I think I have it all dialed in pretty well now. The reduction gear (3:1 belt drive for me) is another tool to fine tune it all. How do you do that with direct drive? Change the motor windings? That's not an option with the ME1616.

I suppose the belt drive adds noise but it's still a lot quieter than the diesel. And if I really enclosed the compartment with sound proofing (none now) it could be close to silent which turns out to be a bit of a problem when your trying to understand what is happening in operation. Even with a little sea noise it can be hard to tell. So be careful what you wish for.

So my setup is designed around a max motor RPM of 2400 at 48V. The reduction gear was chosen to get my prop RPM to max at 800 and prop pitch was set to get me about 7 knots at max. I had expectations of performance based on data I collected from every similar installation I could find and my system has exceeded expectations. I think a lot of that is because my prop diameter and pitch are better matched to the system than average. A lot of folks are just using the prop that they had with the diesel but now have different RPM profiles and things don't match as well. So spend some time on that for best results.

Do you know what the reduction gearing is in your sail drives? Perhaps it's in a range that will get you a proper match with direct connection of the ME1616. But probably not?   I don't know the relevant parameters of your boat and sail drives and props. And even if I did I might not be able to make anything of them.   Could you drive the hydraulic system with the ME1616?   I have no idea if that's even worth considering.

Dan Pfeiffer

On 2024-08-14 12:40 am, Charlie wrote:

Dan do you know what speed your motor is spinning at for the 3kW at 5.5kts?

I saw your gear reduction unit and I am trying to decide if i need to build that as well. To get the rotor rpms up where the motor is happier to run at.

- (Also is that true for this ME1616? are motors happier at higher RPMs? I thought DC motors were happy to put out torque at low rpms?.. but everyting i have read recently says keep the RPMs in an efficient band which is elusive to ascertain.

So i am trying to find out where the motors are running at RPM wise and if I should direct couple or gear down the motor. Then if I gear down (which seems logical now) to which RPM range am I calculating towards?

Thanks guys!

- This boat is a catamaran, has very interesting hydraulic drives at the moment. Has standard saildrives mated to the hydraulic gearmotors like on a piece of farm equip. Very compact and tidy but not very efficient.

Re: [electricboats] Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?

"That's the first I've heard of props being most efficient around 1000RPM."

It's not that there's some peak efficiency at that RPM. It's just that lower is better for RPM when it comes to prop efficiency ("all other things equal"). Mostly due to drag going up more than linearly with speed (speed of prop blades through the water). There are of course practical limits to how low of an RPM can still be effective (pitch gets too high to be workable).

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Re: [electricboats] Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?

It is well-established that a large prop turning at low rpm is the most efficient way to go for displacement type hulls. Many ICE setups have props turning at higher speeds but that is to do with how ICE develops power snd torque, not prop efficiency. A study of Gere's Propeller Handbook would be a good place to start.

On Thu, 15 Aug 2024, 02:59 john via groups.io, <oak_box=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

That's the first I've heard of props being most efficient around 1000RPM. Are there references for that?

On my trawler, I have a 1.25 : 1 gear ratio in the transmission. My engine guru tells me I *should* be running the engines at least 1600 RPM to keep them hot enough to not accumulate soot. With the 1.5 ratio, that's already over 1000 RPM.

People like to run gas boats at a LOT higher RPM ("pointy end forward, FULL speed ahead!!!"). They have higher gear ratios, but seems like even with a 3:1 transmission, they'd still be over 1000 RPM at the shaft.

Maybe that's just as close as they can reasonably compromise on?

John

On Wednesday, August 14, 2024 at 12:49:59 AM CDT, Paul J. Thompson <bathroomdirectit@gmail.com> wrote:

While running the motor in its efficient band is important, possibly even more important is to keep the shaft (prop) speed below about 1000 RPM as that is where props are most efficient and it's the prime reason for reduction gears.
--
Regards,

Paul J. Thompson
IT Manager - Bathroom Direct
(W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please)

On Wed, Aug 14, 2024 at 5:40 PM Charlie via groups.io <cp3sail=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Dan do you know what speed your motor is spinning at for the 3kW at 5.5kts?

I saw your gear reduction unit and I am trying to decide if i need to build that as well. To get the rotor rpms up where the motor is happier to run at.

- (Also is that true for this ME1616? are motors happier at higher RPMs? I thought DC motors were happy to put out torque at low rpms?.. but everyting i have read recently says keep the RPMs in an efficient band which is elusive to ascertain.

So i am trying to find out where the motors are running at RPM wise and if I should direct couple or gear down the motor. Then if I gear down (which seems logical now) to which RPM range am I calculating towards?

Thanks guys!

- This boat is a catamaran, has very interesting hydraulic drives at the moment. Has standard saildrives mated to the hydraulic gearmotors like on a piece of farm equip. Very compact and tidy but not very efficient.

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Re: [electricboats] Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?

At 5.5 knots motor RPM is about 1800. Reduction is 3:1 so prop is at 600.

I designed my system to get the motor into a good efficiency range at my operational speeds based on the motor data from Motenergy. See attached. No mysteries about the ME1616 performance parameters. To be outside that efficiency range means more heat. You can do it but it costs. There's also prop efficiency to consider. I have an 18" prop and wanted it spinning slower than it did with the diesel. I am at 800 max now (was 1200 with diesel). Prop pitch is a bit less precise with slip considerations but I think I have it all dialed in pretty well now. The reduction gear (3:1 belt drive for me) is another tool to fine tune it all. How do you do that with direct drive? Change the motor windings? That's not an option with the ME1616.

I suppose the belt drive adds noise but it's still a lot quieter than the diesel. And if I really enclosed the compartment with sound proofing (none now) it could be close to silent which turns out to be a bit of a problem when your trying to understand what is happening in operation. Even with a little sea noise it can be hard to tell. So be careful what you wish for.

So my setup is designed around a max motor RPM of 2400 at 48V. The reduction gear was chosen to get my prop RPM to max at 800 and prop pitch was set to get me about 7 knots at max. I had expectations of performance based on data I collected from every similar installation I could find and my system has exceeded expectations. I think a lot of that is because my prop diameter and pitch are better matched to the system than average. A lot of folks are just using the prop that they had with the diesel but now have different RPM profiles and things don't match as well. So spend some time on that for best results.

Do you know what the reduction gearing is in your sail drives? Perhaps it's in a range that will get you a proper match with direct connection of the ME1616. But probably not? I don't know the relevant parameters of your boat and sail drives and props. And even if I did I might not be able to make anything of them. Could you drive the hydraulic system with the ME1616? I have no idea if that's even worth considering.

Dan Pfeiffer

On 2024-08-14 12:40 am, Charlie wrote:

Dan do you know what speed your motor is spinning at for the 3kW at 5.5kts?

I saw your gear reduction unit and I am trying to decide if i need to build that as well. To get the rotor rpms up where the motor is happier to run at.

- (Also is that true for this ME1616? are motors happier at higher RPMs? I thought DC motors were happy to put out torque at low rpms?.. but everyting i have read recently says keep the RPMs in an efficient band which is elusive to ascertain.

So i am trying to find out where the motors are running at RPM wise and if I should direct couple or gear down the motor. Then if I gear down (which seems logical now) to which RPM range am I calculating towards?

Thanks guys!

- This boat is a catamaran, has very interesting hydraulic drives at the moment. Has standard saildrives mated to the hydraulic gearmotors like on a piece of farm equip. Very compact and tidy but not very efficient.

Re: [electricboats] Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?

That's the first I've heard of props being most efficient around 1000RPM. Are there references for that?

On my trawler, I have a 1.25 : 1 gear ratio in the transmission. My engine guru tells me I *should* be running the engines at least 1600 RPM to keep them hot enough to not accumulate soot. With the 1.5 ratio, that's already over 1000 RPM.

People like to run gas boats at a LOT higher RPM ("pointy end forward, FULL speed ahead!!!"). They have higher gear ratios, but seems like even with a 3:1 transmission, they'd still be over 1000 RPM at the shaft.

Maybe that's just as close as they can reasonably compromise on?

John

On Wednesday, August 14, 2024 at 12:49:59 AM CDT, Paul J. Thompson <bathroomdirectit@gmail.com> wrote:

While running the motor in its efficient band is important, possibly even more important is to keep the shaft (prop) speed below about 1000 RPM as that is where props are most efficient and it's the prime reason for reduction gears.

--
Regards,

Paul J. Thompson
IT Manager - Bathroom Direct
(W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please)

On Wed, Aug 14, 2024 at 5:40 PM Charlie via groups.io <cp3sail=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

Dan do you know what speed your motor is spinning at for the 3kW at 5.5kts?

I saw your gear reduction unit and I am trying to decide if i need to build that as well. To get the rotor rpms up where the motor is happier to run at.

- (Also is that true for this ME1616? are motors happier at higher RPMs? I thought DC motors were happy to put out torque at low rpms?.. but everyting i have read recently says keep the RPMs in an efficient band which is elusive to ascertain.

So i am trying to find out where the motors are running at RPM wise and if I should direct couple or gear down the motor. Then if I gear down (which seems logical now) to which RPM range am I calculating towards?

Thanks guys!

- This boat is a catamaran, has very interesting hydraulic drives at the moment. Has standard saildrives mated to the hydraulic gearmotors like on a piece of farm equip. Very compact and tidy but not very efficient.

Tuesday, August 13, 2024

Re: [electricboats] Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?

--
Regards,

Paul J. Thompson
IT Manager - Bathroom Direct
(W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please)

On Wed, Aug 14, 2024 at 5:40 PM Charlie via groups.io <cp3sail=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

Dan do you know what speed your motor is spinning at for the 3kW at 5.5kts?

I saw your gear reduction unit and I am trying to decide if i need to build that as well. To get the rotor rpms up where the motor is happier to run at.

- (Also is that true for this ME1616? are motors happier at higher RPMs? I thought DC motors were happy to put out torque at low rpms?.. but everyting i have read recently says keep the RPMs in an efficient band which is elusive to ascertain.

So i am trying to find out where the motors are running at RPM wise and if I should direct couple or gear down the motor. Then if I gear down (which seems logical now) to which RPM range am I calculating towards?

Thanks guys!

- This boat is a catamaran, has very interesting hydraulic drives at the moment. Has standard saildrives mated to the hydraulic gearmotors like on a piece of farm equip. Very compact and tidy but not very efficient.

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Re: [electricboats] Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?

Reuben,

Assuming your setup is in a catamaran: How long and how heavy is your boat? and how fast do you spin your motors? do you have a reduction setup or are they direct coupled? (the silence of direct coupling is very attractive, and the safety).

Thank you!

-Charlie

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Re: [electricboats] Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?

The really enticing thing is:

The current hydraulic motors here, they have 7/8" SAE(B) keyed output shafts going down into the saildrives. Just like the ME1616.

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Re: [electricboats] Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?

Dan do you know what speed your motor is spinning at for the 3kW at 5.5kts?

I saw your gear reduction unit and I am trying to decide if i need to build that as well. To get the rotor rpms up where the motor is happier to run at.

- (Also is that true for this ME1616? are motors happier at higher RPMs? I thought DC motors were happy to put out torque at low rpms?.. but everyting i have read recently says keep the RPMs in an efficient band which is elusive to ascertain.

So i am trying to find out where the motors are running at RPM wise and if I should direct couple or gear down the motor. Then if I gear down (which seems logical now) to which RPM range am I calculating towards?

Thanks guys!

- This boat is a catamaran, has very interesting hydraulic drives at the moment. Has standard saildrives mated to the hydraulic gearmotors like on a piece of farm equip. Very compact and tidy but not very efficient.

_._,_._,_

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Re: [electricboats] Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?

Thanks very much everyone! And thank you Dan I read through all of your great writeups on the install.

I appreciate that well traveled kW data about 5.5kts 3kW 62Amps.

Really nice blog on the install.

From what I am finding in laymans terms:

- 48VDC spins these motors more slowly.

- So they don't make the advertised 15kW

- But they are still the best thing going for DC motors, and they move boats reliably

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Re: [electricboats] Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?

I am in the San Francisco Bay

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Re: [electricboats] Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?

I have a pair of ME1302s - 10kW/48v. Top RPM is 2,400. I run at much slower speeds never reaching the max. Watch the temperature at speeds clisr to max.

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Re: [electricboats] Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?

I have an ME1616 in my 10 meter sailboat (6.5 tons). It is the motor in the Thunderstruck 12kW liquid cooled sailboat kit:
https://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/12kw-sevcon-liquid-cooled-sailboat-kit.html

I have lots of info on my installation here:
http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/electric_drive.htm

I think if you want the capacity to run at sustained high output levels (over 65%) you NEED active cooling. I also think its best to design your system so that normal operation is well below the non-cooled continuous rating. For my installation I am rarely running at more than 5.5 knots which is about 3kW or 62 amps. Well within the continuous rating for the ME1616 without cooling (6.7kW). But I have a cooling system that will let me run up to full power at 12kW though in practice the boat seems to max out at 11kW and 7 knots? A lot depends on conditions like wind, waves, and bottom fouling so it's hard to be precise. And at that output level I would run out of battery in 65 minutes? But I have plenty of reserve power to punch through a tough harbor entrance or scoot out of the way of trouble when needed. Probably more than the diesel had (but not for as long).

The 6kW may be an approximation of the continuous rating without cooling. I have these notes about Motenergy motors including the ME1616:

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Montenergy ME1616 Motor Details From Thunderstruck
IPM Water Cooled motor for up to 96 VDC battery systems,
and 250 amps continuous. This has the same stator and
rotor as the ME1507, but in a water cooled IP67 case. 7/8"
keyed shaft. Provide your own small radiator and a coolant
pump with a flow rate of 4-10 litres per minute. Max rpm
6000 Approx. 55 pounds.

When used in our kits, controllers will cut power when the
motor gets too hot, based on internal motor temp sensor.
Coolant temp leaving the motor should be under 230F/ 110C
with standard use, and up to 100C on the inlet side is
allowable. If controllers are adjusted for Field weaking
this rating would be lower.

From Montenergy email 11/2020:
1) The ME1304 is rated for 200 amps continuous
with water cooling, and 125 without water cooling.

2) The ME1616 is rated for 140 amps continuous without
water cooling. This is a lower specification as compared
to the ME1507, because the ME1507 has cooling fins on
the external case, and the case is thinner, in direct contact
with the windings and laminations.

3) We rate the ME1616 motor at 2 minutes, 600 amps.
This is form a cold start. If the motor is already at maximum
temperature, then this time and maximum current will be lower.

The ME1115 is good for about 125 amps, 1/2 the continuous
power as compared to the ME1616. Both will run the same
speed with 48 VDC.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

ME1115 max continuous current 125 amps @48V = 6,000 Watts
ME1115 max continuous current 150 amps @48V = 7,200 Watts *
ME1507 max continuous current 160 amps @48V = 7,680 Watts
ME1616 max continuous (w/o cooling) 140 amps @48V = 6,720 Watts
ME1616 max continuous (w cooling) 250 amps @48V = 12,000 Watts

* different rating from Motenergy web site

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Hope this helps.

Dan Pfeiffer

On 2024-08-13 12:15 am, Charlie wrote:

Anyone with ME1616 experience?

I am planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available?

I tend to believe only the most conservative numbers, so I saw a post in EV Europe listing it as 6kW continuous when run at 48V with 2000rpm listed. (assuming it cant go faster than 2000 rpm at 48VDC?)

Here is the verbage:

Power max 50kW@96V

Power continuous 6kW@48VDC – 2000rpm – 12 kW@96VDC – 4000rpm

And the site: https://eveurope.eu/en/product/me1616-pmac-engine-water-cooled-22-kwatt/

I would love to go to 96VDC but I do not think that is wise for all of the accessory systems on the boat and since i always find a way to arc something despite precautions.

Any other 48vdc recommendations? Thank you!!

Re: [electricboats] Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?

Where are you located Charlie ?

On Tuesday, August 13, 2024 at 08:56:33 AM EDT, Charlie <cp3sail@gmail.com> wrote:

Anyone with ME1616 experience?

I am planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available?

I tend to believe only the most conservative numbers, so I saw a post in EV Europe listing it as 6kW continuous when run at 48V with 2000rpm listed. (assuming it cant go faster than 2000 rpm at 48VDC?)

Here is the verbage:

Power max 50kW@96V
Power continuous 6kW@48VDC – 2000rpm – 12 kW@96VDC – 4000rpm

And the site: https://eveurope.eu/en/product/me1616-pmac-engine-water-cooled-22-kwatt/

I would love to go to 96VDC but I do not think that is wise for all of the accessory systems on the boat and since i always find a way to arc something despite precautions.

Any other 48vdc recommendations? Thank you!!

Monday, August 12, 2024

[electricboats] Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?

Anyone with ME1616 experience?

I am planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available?

Here is the verbage:

Power max 50kW@96V
Power continuous 6kW@48VDC – 2000rpm – 12 kW@96VDC – 4000rpm

And the site: https://eveurope.eu/en/product/me1616-pmac-engine-water-cooled-22-kwatt/

I would love to go to 96VDC but I do not think that is wise for all of the accessory systems on the boat and since i always find a way to arc something despite precautions.

Any other 48vdc recommendations? Thank you!!

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