Saturday, July 30, 2016

Re: [Electric Boats] AC vs DC motors

 

Adastra probably cost about 50 M$.
Is this a good source for data and or stuff ?


On 29/07/2016 23:25, Jerry Barth shredderf16@sbcglobal.net [electricboats] wrote:

David,

  You should check out John Shuttleworth.  He just did a 140 ft trimaran that is currently going around the world.  I've been following him for about 30 years now and his boats are always good.  Adastra also has amazing fuel economy for how big it is, something like 3 times better than other similar sized boats.

Jerry Barth

http://www.shuttleworthdesign.com/adastra.php


--   -hanermo (cnc designs)  

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Posted by: Hannu Venermo <gcode.fi@gmail.com>
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Re: [Electric Boats] AC vs DC motors - new EC cat

 


You only need about 10-15 kw per side of power for 8 knots from a 80
feet hull.
This 50% variance can change another 50% based on windage, mass, or hull
shape.

Current best solar panels are about 21% efficient => 330 W / panel, or
210 W / sq meter of hull area.
You might get, at best (imho), 12 kW of direct PV input.
Forget 70 kW, totally unrealistic.

12 kW / 0.21 (W/sq m) => 57 sq m.
Panel array between the hulls.

You need a light, strong, frame for the panels.
Spaceframe from commercial stuff would be best - something alu or carbon
fiber.
You need to start with
1. how to arrange the panels, and where.
2. size of same
3. Then power control electronics for 12 kW, with potentially 50 kw (?)
power runs.

Note spaceframe is lightest suitable structure, and even then it likely
to be 1-5 metric tons in mass.
500% variance based on how the open space is constructed, and what the
span is.
Rigidity is cube of span.

Note wracking stresses (huge, enormous) in widely spaced structure,
where the hulls want to twist and bend about 30-40 cm, wrt each other,
continuously.
Thus, mounting of frame and panels is a critical item.
Soft mount (ie non- structural) is an option, with it´s own issues.

Parts 1., 2., 3. are all critical.
Hulls are trivial.
Motors etc are trivial. Cots, easy and cheap.

There are no cheap large cats in the recreation market.
Use current cats for inspiration, and look at howto/where mount panels
on them.
Use current costs for estimation.

If you build in alu, estimated cost about 1-1.5M U$D, and 20.000+ work
hours.
Thats for a bareboat, no electronics and entertainment.

Note difficulty of making hull, almost no professional work being done
in this size, ie it´s very expensive due to practically no competition.
The pro yards don´t and wont want to do a cheap-ass build (liability,
lack of profits).

It is not, technically, hard to do alu hulls.
It´s just that there is almost no-one doing them to this size, and they
charge $$$.

A semi-pro approach would/could be to have 2 alu hulls made by those
doing large alu sailboats.
Again, the next step up is a major undertaking.

Examples:
Alu will need, for example, insulation, as its a huge heatsink.
Cost of insulation, perhaps 30-50k.
(About 20-25k per hull.).

Major power wiring.
Cost of same, perhaps 30k.
(15 k per hull, with suitable mandatory marine isolators etc.)

My point.
Running 50-100 kW power wiring, long distances in complex structures, is
a major cost.

Project management is a major cost.
Who will do this ?

I could think of 5 ways to drop 100-200 k each out of total build costs ..
but all will need significant specialist skills from someone.

CNC cutting the major elements in a cheap location (could be asia, or
anywhere, with a huge router) is one way.
Shipping the pieces is only 10k vs easily 100k+ extra cost delta to
getting them cut in the USA, for example.
Who will check them ? and how ? and authorise payment.

Example:
Who will build the 3D model, and with what sw ?
Note correct sw can easily cost 100-200k in extra work, vs "better" sw.
Ie cheap Rhino 3D can easily make pretty models, but wont drive
manufacturing processes, today, as-is.

Thus revisions in Rhino are not a manufacturing solution.
IE you cannot derive manufacturing prints from a single model- and thus
every hull revision costs 1000+ work hours extra in other stuff.

Cost of panels.
Sunpower panels are more efficient (21% vs 16%) but twice the cost at
say 1.2$/W shipped vs 0.6$ for containerload.
Thus Sunpower panels might be 14 k$ for 12 kW, vs 6 k for china panels.
Add 100% for bos, and a 12 kW system might be 24 k $.
Relatively low cost, in context.

The range is huge in terms of $$, mostly due to how the marine industry
works, in terms of business.
Thus, getting 2 hulls built and a cat based from them, is relatively
easy in engineering terms, and could potentially be not-expensive.
But based on economics, it will cost 3-5x more than it "should".

So technically, if I needed no certifications, I could probably get a
cat done for 200k in alu.
But, practically, a cat with "marine" stuff would cost around 800-1M$.
(These costs with no engineering or systems).

The same could be done, in a marine yard, for under 200 k in steel.
Steel is about the same in terms of mass (yachts over 15 m), but 1/3 -
1/4 the cost.

--

-hanermo (cnc designs)

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Posted by: Hannu Venermo <gcode.fi@gmail.com>
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Friday, July 29, 2016

RE: [Electric Boats] AC vs DC motors [1 Attachment]

 
[Attachment(s) from Jerry Barth included below]

David,

  You should check out John Shuttleworth.  He just did a 140 ft trimaran that is currently going around the world.  I've been following him for about 30 years now and his boats are always good.  Adastra also has amazing fuel economy for how big it is, something like 3 times better than other similar sized boats.

Jerry Barth

http://www.shuttleworthdesign.com/adastra.php

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: David Adams lonzim.adams@gmail.com [electricboats]
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2016 3:27 PM
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] AC vs DC motors

 

 

Hi Kevin,

 

Yes, I have already contacted a Naval engineer and gone through the preliminaries.

However, I felt he wanted to press straight in to designing the vessel before seeing if it would work.

In other words, my initial criteria are.

 

Multihull in about LWL 80 - 100' (The closer to 80 the better, 100' is just getting crazy)

Total beam of about 35 - 40'

Hull beam to length ratio of about 10:1 preferably 12:1

8-10kt cruise with 15kt max

2 x 100kW (134hp) electric motors (continuous rated)

2 x 120kW backup generators

Hull material aluminium

Displacement of about 60 tons (metric) Might end up closer to 70tons

Approximately 70kW of solar PV on roof.

 

NA's  answer was, well, we have to design it first to see how much power we need to drive it through the water.

(Time to find another NA)

 

I'm not going to spend 40k designing a boat that doesn't work. So...

 

I'm out here asking for some advice and ideas.

 

I realise it's not an easy thing to answer but does anyone have any idea if the above is doable?

Or am I just way out of the ball park?

 

The kind of questions I'm asking myself are, how fast will I be able to propel the boat if I'm running on PV alone and feeding the two motors 30kW each? Is it even plausible?

Will 200kW total push the boat at an 8-10kt cruise and 15kt max if I've got both generators fired up?

Will it even get close?

 

Before I have some idea of these things, I'm not prepared to leap in. It's not play money.

 

Even the 40k to design it and produce the cad cutting files isn't play money.

 

So can anyone please offer some pointers / opinions?

 

Thanks for all the input so far folks, it's really appreciated.

 

Best regards

 

Dave

 

 

 

 

 

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Attachment(s) from Jerry Barth | View attachments on the web

1 of 1 Photo(s)


Posted by: Jerry Barth <Shredderf16@sbcglobal.net>
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Thursday, July 28, 2016

[Electric Boats] Solar Electric Catamaran For Sale

 

26' Solar Electric Catamaran | powerboats, motorboats | Burnaby/New Westminster | Kijiji

I'm sure I've missed a few things on the list but for those that are interested it might very well save years of planning, research and sourcing of components.  The Catamaran is a winner at only 5400 lbs and the 390lbs of thrust propels her up and down the river almost unencumbered.

Still on the buy list is the GPS anchor a MotorGuide xi5 SW 60" 36v 105lbs thrust trolling motor and perhaps a lighter smaller dingy.  Things still need to be properly strapped down inside but that is trivial and some new cushions.   

Arden

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Posted by: Arden Wiebe <albert682@yahoo.com>
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Re: [Electric Boats] Generator and battery charger

 

You might consider the Alphagen DCX3000.  I have two of them and when my 400ah bank is less than 52.5v and they sense a large draw they can both spool up the amps accordingly to support almost maximum hull speed and motor speed.  They can each produce 60amps per generator.  I simply run this back to the bank and invert it from there for traditional 120v ac house use or convert it to 12 volt for the boat electronics. 

I charge with 2160w of solar and if I have shore power I use a couple old Lestronic II ferroresonant  48v chargers that automatically shut off after 53.3 volts so between the solar and the chargers I can push over 50amps back into the batteries on a bright sunshine day.  I just have to reset the Lestronics and they continue to push the voltage of the pack up to full quickly enough as once the batteries crest 54.5v the voltage progress quite rapidly to 56.5v but that is moot as I hardly ever take them there for no good reason other than to calibrate my EV display to track amp hours before a trip.

Arden



From: "John Acord jcacord@gmail.com [electricboats]" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2016 9:55 PM
Subject: [Electric Boats] Generator and battery charger

 
I am interested in using a generator with the battery charger to have continuous running for longer range.  If you have done this what generator and charger did you use?  This is for a 48V system, and would be also interested in the output current.

John Acord

--
Flatwater Electronics
www.flatwaterfarm.com
"Neurosurgery for computer looms."


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Posted by: Arden Wiebe <albert682@yahoo.com>
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Tuesday, July 26, 2016

Re: [Electric Boats] AC vs DC motors

 


Hamish,

I like your solar thinking too. I wish my boat were larger to consider that. Here's food for thought on that matter. Obviously the more efficient cells you can use the more power you will get per square metre but efficient cells cost. Now consider going from 2D to 3D solar so for the same footprint you can add some vertical panels, which increases output to that over and above that of two dimensional solar. Use separate MPPT controllers for each plane and use high panel voltages to keep losses down. If you had a 3D box or rectangular shape you'll start charging earlier in the day and continue later in the day. There may also be reflected light too to help from the water. Much will depend on your boat, money and weight but a variation of 3D solar and regen from a motor is certainly a way to save on genset use. The best implementation I have seen of 3D solar is cells in the usual places plus some on the boom and the mast with the lovely solar cloth panels from Alain Janet in France, in the mainsail. If I were a rich man....
John
Sent from my iPhone

John.Rushworth.Com - Rushworth.Co.UK - Rushworth.UK - Rushworth.Org.UK

 

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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: 56 foot Performance Catamaran

 

Dear Hamish,
We have a dealer who services your area and can provide you with additional information about the POD drives. Here is their website.  http://www.powerequipment.com.au/
Best,
Captain Todd Sims - Global Sales and Product Manager, Hybrid Systems for Torqeedo

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Posted by: rumblecity@gmail.com
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RE: [Electric Boats] Re: AC vs DC motors

 

Hi again,

Another thing bugging me is, if we require 100kW per hull to move this thing through the water.
To keep the current reasonable, what voltages am I looking at on the AC and DC side?

Short answer is fu@#ing scary.....on a boat.....in water....


:-)


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Posted by: David Adams <lonzim.adams@gmail.com>
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