Sunday, January 31, 2016

[Electric Boats] Introduction and query from a new member to the group

 

Introduction and query from a new member to the group:


"Thanks for the Welcome. I have a Nonsuch 36 which I plan to re-power this summer. As part of the investigation of options, electric propulsion has been discussed. I look forward to opinions on electric propulsion systems (AC/DC), components, designs, manufacturers/companies. Below are a few questions and how I expect to use the boat in the future.

 

Question #1  - Can you propose a system with a generator that will automatically engage when the battery bank needs recharging to properly operate. 

 

Question #2 - Do manufacturers/companies provide a system configuration diagram for owner installation. Does the diagram include a bill of material. Are cable and lug connections stipulated.

 

Question #3 - Do manufactures provide system weight by component.

 

Question #4 - AGM vs Lithium batteries and solar panels 

 

Questions #5 - Are there any dangers associated with electric propulsion

 

Question # 6 - 48 Vs 72 Volts I expect will provide great range. Are there any other consideration.

 

 

 

Background on Nonsuch 

 

Below are specification and planned use for our Nonsuch 36. Using the existing V-drive what system components can you propose. Assuming 75% throttle is a safe and efficient operating range for the Ocean Volt system, in this application on a Nonsuch 36 how many knots of speed can be sustained. For example on prior trips to Maine we have traveled for 30 -35 hours under power at one time.  Please provide a summary of component weights and cost. 

 

Future Use: Coastal cruising including Trips to Maine, VIRGINIA and potentially Florida. I will be retired soon and expect to use the boat extensively.

 

Boat Specs:

1) Weight -19000# with cruising gear

2) Hull Speed 7.8 (during inclement conditions travel at near hull speed would be desired)

3) Feathering Propeller  

4) V-drive is Hirth unit

5) Current power Westerbeke 58 HP Diesel

 

In advance thanks for your help in educating me on the options for electric drive."


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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: conversion performance

 

Hi Chris,
There's a high quality open source project (https://github.com/signalk) that possibly could be adapted for automated data acquisition.  The canboat (https://github.com/canboat/canboat) developer participates in the SignalK project. So (with some effort) it should be possible to acquire Sevcon (proprietary?) CANbus data commingled with NMEA data.
I am replying to all in case there are any CANbus lurkers out there.  :-)

P.S. I didn't notice any USB ports on my Sevcon 4 controller. What's the physical connection to the Sevcon controller that you use to run the Sevcon DVT application?
 
--Bob Moriarty
Ox 1976 C&C 33
LOA:  32.87' / 10.02m
LWL:  26.42' / 8.05m
Displacement:  9800 lbs./ 4445 kgs.
Propulsion System: Electroprop Racer
Batteries: 4 X Northstar 210 FT Blue+
Motor: Motenergy ME 1114 Rev A
Controller: Sevcon Gen 4 275 Amp
Current Prop: 2-blade fixed 16X10X1
(original - came w/A4)
Jax, FL USA
 

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Posted by: Bob Moriarty <moriartybob@yahoo.com>
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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: conversion performance

 

Bob,
An automated form of data collection is the way to go. I have the Sevcon DVT software on my laptop and it has a logging function. It has a preconfigured data set that is saved in a .csv format. It has motor speed, battery current, capacitor volts, and a bunch of things I don't understand. I did a run with my boat with the laptop at different speeds starting and stopping the log at the different speed points. Works pretty well. Expensive software and interface though. If only there was a way to get GPS speed/heading and wind speed/direction into the log file!

Chris

Sent from myPhone

On Jan 30, 2016, at 20:06, Bob Moriarty moriartybob@yahoo.com [electricboats] <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Finally got some performance data today.
Velocity values are over ground (GPS), not through the water.
The first set was taken going into a < 4 knot headwind and an estimated ~0.1 knot current.
The second set was taken on a reciprocal course with an estimated tail wind of 4 knots.
Outdoor temperature was around 65F, 18C.
The boat's bottom was cleaned ~3 weeks ago. There is not a lot of bottom growth this time of year.
There's a bit of imprecision in my measurements in that this was my second sea trial and I'm still getting to know my new instruments. Also, some of the values took awhile to "settle down" and I probably could have been a bit more patient.
It would be nice to be able to gather performance data in an automated way.


Knots    Amps    Volts    Watts
1.6        10            51.9    519
2.4        18            51.9    934
3.1        28            50.8    1422
3.7        43            49.8    2141
4.4        65            49.8    3237
5.0        92            48.8    4490  (full throttle)

Return course:
1.8         7              51.1    358
2.5        12            51.1     613
3.2        17            50.9     865
3.4        21            50.9    1069
3.7        30            50.9    1527
4.3        45            49.8    2241
5.2        89            48.8    4325  (full throttle)
 
Ox 1976 C&C 33
LOA:  32.87' / 10.02m
LWL:  26.42' / 8.05m
Displacement:  9800 lbs./ 4445 kgs.
Propulsion System: Electroprop Racer
Batteries: 4 X Northstar 210 FT Blue+
Motor: Motenergy ME 1114 Rev A
Controller: Sevcon Gen 4 275 Amp
Current Prop: 2-blade fixed 16X10X1
(original - came w/A4)
Jax, FL USA
 

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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: conversion performance

 

Hard to argue with that. It seems to work the same way on my boat.

Chris

Sent from myPhone

On Jan 31, 2016, at 18:38, boat_works@yahoo.com [electricboats] <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Hmm.

Aboard GRACE, P=IE, always. Or W=VA, if you like.


If my battery bank is at 51V while I am drawing 10A from it, my system is consuming 510W. 


-Tom 



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[Electric Boats] Re: conversion performance

 

Hmm.

Aboard GRACE, P=IE, always. Or W=VA, if you like.


If my battery bank is at 51V while I am drawing 10A from it, my system is consuming 510W. 


-Tom 



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[Electric Boats] Re: conversion performance

 

I believe that there is some confusion in this discussion.  There has been a misconception by some regarding the wattage that our electric motors use. 

The amp draw is times the rated nominal voltage of the motor. It is not times the recorded state of charge (SOC) of the batteries.  Therefore if you have a 48v system and are pulling 10amps out of the motor it is 480watts.  If your SOC at that time is 50v it is still 10amps times 48v or 480 watts of power from the motor.  It is not 10amps time 50v.  SOC is going to be inaccurate in most of our boats as there is draw from the battery bank and only when the battery is in a quiet state is it spot on accurate.  You likely all notice how the battery bank pops back up so quickly after you turn off the motor. 

If you have been incorrect in your usage of amperage and voltage, you should do a new calculation and you will likely see a marked improvement in your slow speed powering.  At the higher draws (amps) the batteries SOC is normally a little lower than at the very low draws. This is a fact of life that we all deal with when we use lead acid based batteries and which I believe is not as misleading with LiFePO4 batteries.  Its the chemistry and physics that we are dealing with.

That will bring me to my final comment.  We are all students and can learn from each other.  We are all teachers and can teach each other.  Therefore the collegial sharing of information should be encouraged and corrected when necessary.  This is how we all learn.

Mike
Electric Yachts of Southern California

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Re: [Electric Boats] New to group - Can I use regen with a folding/feathering prop

 

I was wondering if the autoprop would give a bit better performance than a standard prop with the same size and pitch specs




Some, if not all,  feathering propellers in reverse it will stay in reverse until it is placed in forward and will only feather out of forward.

If the propeller is locked in reverse then it will regenerate.

Since a feathering propeller has flat blades without cupping it is more than likely to regenerate at higher efficiencies than a fixed propeller.

If the pitch in reverse can be set differently from the pitch in forward, then a steeper pitch will create better regeneration because the leading edge of the propeller is aimed more into the water flow and will therefore have less turbulence when used in regen.   








James Lambden
The Electric Propeller Company
625C East Haley Street,
Santa Barbara, CA
93103

805 455 8444

james@electroprop.com

www.electroprop.com

On Jan 28, 2016, at 10:15 AM, paul.kenna@kennalaw.com.au [electricboats] wrote:

 

Hi

I have a 1973 S&S34 yacht MistyII that has an ageing Volvo Penta 20 something HP diesel that is developing overheating problems.  


I use misty for cruising as well as some serious offshore racing at Cat 1 &2 level (although not expecting to win)


When wearing my cruising skippers hat I'd like to repower with an electric motor, dump the diesel altogether, and rely on regeneration from the propeller together with solar and wind turbine to be self sufficient on a 10 to 30 day cruise.


As a racing skipper I really need to change my current 15x10 fixed two blade prop to a folding or feathering design as it robs me about a knot in boat speed.  Can such a prop be used for a regen function and still feather when I need to go quickly and be used with electric propulsion? 


Paul

Melbourne Australia





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Re: [Electric Boats] New to group - Can I use regen with a folding/feathering prop

 

Some, if not all,  feathering propellers in reverse it will stay in reverse until it is placed in forward and will only feather out of forward.

If the propeller is locked in reverse then it will regenerate.

Since a feathering propeller has flat blades without cupping it is more than likely to regenerate at higher efficiencies than a fixed propeller.

If the pitch in reverse can be set differently from the pitch in forward, then a steeper pitch will create better regeneration because the leading edge of the propeller is aimed more into the water flow and will therefore have less turbulence when used in regen.   








James Lambden
The Electric Propeller Company
625C East Haley Street,
Santa Barbara, CA
93103

805 455 8444

james@electroprop.com

www.electroprop.com

On Jan 28, 2016, at 10:15 AM, paul.kenna@kennalaw.com.au [electricboats] wrote:

 

Hi

I have a 1973 S&S34 yacht MistyII that has an ageing Volvo Penta 20 something HP diesel that is developing overheating problems.  


I use misty for cruising as well as some serious offshore racing at Cat 1 &2 level (although not expecting to win)


When wearing my cruising skippers hat I'd like to repower with an electric motor, dump the diesel altogether, and rely on regeneration from the propeller together with solar and wind turbine to be self sufficient on a 10 to 30 day cruise.


As a racing skipper I really need to change my current 15x10 fixed two blade prop to a folding or feathering design as it robs me about a knot in boat speed.  Can such a prop be used for a regen function and still feather when I need to go quickly and be used with electric propulsion? 


Paul

Melbourne Australia



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Posted by: James Lambden <james@electroprop.com>
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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: conversion performance

 

I have been lurking and learning here for over four years and I can safely say you are the first person to post on this site that has true reason to be embarrassed about both judgemental assumptions and arrogant attitude. Sadly you appear to be proud of it.
As my grand pappy used to say sit back listen and learn son. There are very few stupid questions but lots of stupid opinions.

Nick



Sent from my Bell Samsung device over Canada's largest network.


-------- Original message --------
From: "tkgc9 tkgc9@yahoo.com [electricboats]" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 2016-01-30 8:54 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: conversion performance

 

Well said, and the kind of dweeb that owns a real electric Sailboat not a Internet laptop sailer.

Like I said if my data is "mostly unreliable and marginally useful" 
Disregard it.
SO far I have only seen one other person post profomance data.
Bruce you own an electric boat or just a vast vocabulary?
-------- Original message --------
From: "'james@electroprop.com' james@electroprop.com [electricboats]" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 1/30/2016 7:18 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: conversion performance

 

Lets everyone keep their hat on and be cool.   No names, just facts and data is all that is necessary.   This group is very useful and we do not wish to put anyone off by being less than professional.     It doesnt matter how much you know, as we all at one time were on the same part of the learning curve.   

James Lambden
Electric Propeller Company
6 Harbor Way #226
Santa Barbara, CA
93109


On Jan 30, 2016, at 11:42 AM, bruce artzboyz@yahoo.com [electricboats] <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

what kind of dweeb would complain that the posting isn't in watts if both volts and amps is posted? i'm as ignorant of electrical engineering as anyone and i can convert volts/amps to watts if i need to.

the most useful info i'm finding is from those who build the simplest, most efficient systems that allow one to convert a sailboat to electric propulsion. often, that is from amateurs like me.

"Why did you wish me milder? Would you have me false to my nature? Rather, say I play the man I am."    Coriolanus, W. Shakespeare

--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 1/28/16, tkgc9 tkgc9@yahoo.com [electricboats] <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: [Electric Boats] Re: conversion performance

To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, January 28, 2016, 5:19 PM


 









SERIOUSLY I though all I had to do was
crank her up and haul ass.Jezzz what a bunch of
jerks.To the one guy who thanked me for posting
my info," your welcome."To the rest of
uall either post up data from your boat or shut
up.-------- Original
message --------From: king_of_neworleans
<no_reply@yahoogroups.com> Date: 1/28/2016
6:08 PM (GMT-06:00) To:
electricboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE:
[Electric Boats] Re: conversion performance

 






Watts is easy if you know your voltage and current.
48v x 10a would be 480w, for instance. Watts is power. Watts
can be more or less converted to theoretical horsepower.
Amps is current. Volts is, er, voltage. 480w x 2hr would be
960 w/hrs. 220ah at 48v would be 10.6 kw/hr which would be a
measure of capacity. The thing is, someone might have a 48v
system and someone else might have 72, or 96, or 120 or
144v, and just saying 10a or 30a or whatever would be very
uninformative. Simply multiply voltage x current to get
power. Or at least prominently state your system voltage as
well as current.

Think of a
wire as a pipe, for electricity. Voltage is sort of like
pressure. Current is sort of like flow rate. Power is like
the total force of electricity available to get some work
done. Then there is resistance, which is sort of like how
small the pipe is. More resistance at the same voltage gives
less current. And so forth. The basics are really not that
hard to grasp. You should at least be comfortable doing
Ohm's law calculations and converting kw to horsepower,
and estimating how long your battery bank will power your
boat. How to select a fuse or a circuit breaker. How to
select the proper size wire. You don't have to be able
to design your own controller, but some basic electrical
knowledge is essential and easy to learn.






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Posted by: 63urban <63urban@gmail.com>
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[Electric Boats] Re: conversion performance

 

Hi Bob,

I'm mostly there re auto data logging using a 4G router. I only have instant data though for GPS speed but it does log tracks. I'm using a USB GPS plugged into my Color Control GX. I would prefer to use my Raymarine chart plotter though via my NMEA2000 network. One day maybe. Logs Watts, Volts, Amps and more. Boat currently on the hard pre season but still logging data. The on/off 50 Watts you see is a thermostatic tube heater in the engine bay just keeping the air dry.

I have publicly shared my boat's data via:

https://vrm.victronenergy.com/world/

Yacht ELEKTRA's site is here:

https://vrm.victronenergy.com/site/share/token/b322188b

In the 'advanced tab' you'll see two sets of battery banks monitored. 256 is my Lithium propulsion bank which is solely for propulsion. The other is my AGM house bank.

John

Public page of conversion:

https://facebook.com/ElektraYachts/

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