To Kevin and anyone interested in this discussion,
That simplified, quick answer that I implied, seems to have evolved to about 4 pages and I know most think it's a boring impossibility, so I will continue through e-mail.
The problem is not so much the content, but rather my poor skills at saying things in proper terminology and in proper sequence. There are a couple of friends that might be willing to help me with this, but at best that will move thing out, maybe a week or two, if in fact they can take the time to assist me.
Thanks
Ron
--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ron" <rlgravel@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Kevin,
> Thanks for the mental efforts, I have a solar panel setup to work on tomorrow so might be another day before I get back.
> I'll try to condense my thoughts into just some basic systems and why they will never work on their own, then by adding the air portion, a key function is put into action that removes heat from the propane gas and allows it to return to liquid at low pressure.
>
> Also if one considers a rule of thumb in air conditioning, 1 HP per ton of cooling, it should be obvious that what I'm suggesting will never be much more than a very good battery charger that runs 24/7 with no expense other than first purchase price and little maintenance over a likely long life. Two or three tons of cooling will run Mike out of his cabin long before his batteries charge up :) I think.
>
> What about Eric, with 6,000 boats soaking up heat in the marina at the same time, water might be too cold for all those cuties to swim?? Is he going to have feuds to settle? Hey! dude your soaking up my share of the heat!!!.
>
> Lots of great ideas that work have been doomed to oblivion because of bad press or negative attitudes.
> Really don't think this would be one.
>
> Later
>
> Ron
>
> --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Kevin <pembertonkevin@> wrote:
> >
> > Ok Ron,
> >
> > Any Liquid can be used as a refrigerant.(product of refrigerant is
> > cooling). But stagnated cooling systems don't have cooling ability
> > because the refrigerant is not changing state (vaporizing).
> >
> > Compressed gases will expand more when heated then un-compressed gases
> > will, because there is more gas to expand.
> >
> > Heated gases can give more work up for the intended job, research the
> > stirling cycle engine for more info on this, the hot gas will produce
> > higher output so cooling the compressed gas has a negative effect.
> > Aside from the fact that to cool anything, the propane must change state
> > thus drawing heat from the source you desire to draw heat from.
> >
> > This topic applies not to electric drive, but I would be glad to discuss
> > it more with you via email pembertonkevin (at) gmail (dot) com. I have
> > tried to get my head around this but don't see what you are seeing.
> >
> >
> > Kevin Pemberton
> >
> > On 08/13/2010 01:57 PM, Ron wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Kevin,
> > > In case you missed the post about compressed air I'll bring that in here.
> > > Put everything out of mind except what takes place related to
> > > compressing the air.
> > > The air system is isolated from the propane in every way except
> > > thermal transfer, it is completely enclosed inside the tank, only the
> > > intake and exhaust ports communicate with the atmosphere...air is
> > > pulled in through a filter and tube line that enters the compressor
> > > where compression takes place, then is temporarily stored in a tank,
> > > then moves to a vane motor intake doing work and then moves out
> > > through an exhaust tube and exits in an expanded and cold condition.
> > >
> > > As much of the compressor system as possible is enclosed by cold
> > > liquid propane which draws in the heat and in turn will develop a
> > > pressure in the propane portion based on how much heat is brought in
> > > with the air volume.
> > >
> > > The end result is warm air in and cold air out. The work compressing
> > > air finishes in two forms 1. high pressure air, 2. high pressure
> > > propane gas.
> > >
> > > This in essence is putting the fire inside the cold sink, waste heat
> > > from any work will always be recycled.
> > >
> > > Just wish I was better gifted about expressing my thoughts.
> > >
> > > Ron
> > >
> > > --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> > > <mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com>, Kevin <pembertonkevin@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > It is time to understand the Propane tank thing. When the propane
> > > > evaporates, as with any other liquid, it requires heat. Myles
> > > > understands this because he is into steam boats. re-stated, to convert
> > > > a liquid to vapor, heat is required. The liquid absorbs surrounding
> > > heat
> > > > to do the work of converting to a vapor. Putting a propane tank in
> > > water
> > > > simply makes a better thermal connection to the walls of the tank that
> > > > fins would do just as well. This is taught in refrigeration school,
> > > > boiler theory or any other science requiring distillation of liquids,
> > > > and many more examples.
> > > >
> > > > The concept has been observed and put to practice in things as simple
> > > > as evaporative coolers, to cryogenics. It is commendable that
> > > > observation has started a quest. I must have 500 pdf files, and just as
> > > > many html pages on this subject for my research in my effort to become
> > > > self sufficient.
> > > >
> > > > Like I stated earlier, I would look into stirling cycle, solar heat
> > > > collectors and sinking heat using the water around the boat. I would
> > > > spend a lot of time studying hull shapes that required little power to
> > > > move thru the water at the highest speed i.e. Long narrow multi-hulls.
> > > > I would give up sails for foils (kites). My canopy would be solar heat
> > > > collectors of the vacuum tube type, and likely use an electric drive
> > > > hooked up to a surface piercing prop.
> > > >
> > > > The object of my design would be a puddle jumper with longer distances
> > > > than obtainable using conventional wisdom and design. A sleeping cudy,
> > > > and very wet cockpit, would be necessary to accomplish the design goal
> > > > (fast and light). The major weight would be in the solar collectors,
> > > > The batteries would be lithium Iron in a minimum configuration. At
> > > > least 4 kites would be needed for very light winds through 50kt wind
> > > > conditions, as this would be the primary drive. The kites would be
> > > > expected to help lift the hulls to plane state.
> > > >
> > > > Do I hear any sponsors ;)
> > > >
> > > > Kevin Pemberton
> > > >
> > > > On 08/10/2010 10:23 AM, Capt. Mike wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > "A story: hobby steamboaters who use propane as fuel for their
> > > boilers
> > > > > often place their propane tanks in a water bath to keep from freezing
> > > > > and choking off the energy flow. Sometimes they also run a steam line
> > > > > to the water tank. "
> > > > >
> > > > > Miles;
> > > > >
> > > > > As I mentioned to Ron. Seems like the perfect solution for a cruising
> > > > > sailboat would be to have a propane tank in the boats ice box.
> > > When it
> > > > > freezes it will cool down the ice box. But you are absolutely right
> > > > > any leaks of propane need to be vented outside the boat. But, I don't
> > > > > see that as a hard thing to do.
> > > > >
> > > > > Capt. Mike
> > > > >
> > > > > Sent from on board BIANKA
> > > > > http://biankablog.blogspot.com
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > *From: * "Myles Twete" <matwete@>
> > > > > *Sender: * electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> > > <mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > *Date: *Tue, 10 Aug 2010 08:41:39 -0700
> > > > > *To: *<electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> > > <mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com>>
> > > > > *ReplyTo: * electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> > > <mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > *Subject: *RE: [Electric Boats] Water Temperature
> > > > >
> > > > > If one is running a genset on propane AND generating electricity from
> > > > > solar panels at the same time, one could put the propane tank in a
> > > > > bath of water, with the chilled water pumped up to cool the solar
> > > > > panels (which would raise the water temperature) and return the water
> > > > > to the propane tank bath. This would help the propane tank and lines
> > > > > keep from freezing while delivering power and at the same time help
> > > > > keep the solar panels cool to maximize their efficiency.
> > > > >
> > > > > But how often would one be both generating power from burning propane
> > > > > and generating power from solar.
> > > > >
> > > > > A story: hobby steamboaters who use propane as fuel for their boilers
> > > > > often place their propane tanks in a water bath to keep from freezing
> > > > > and choking off the energy flow. Sometimes they also run a steam line
> > > > > to the water tank. And often that's as far as they go---a manually
> > > > > operated steam line going to this tank to help warm that water.
> > > > > Unfortunately, in at least a couple cases, that manual control was
> > > > > forgotten about and the water temperature not monitored until the
> > > > > propane tank "vented" due to overpressure. And in each of those
> > > > > cases, the vent was not piped overboard and so the propane vented
> > > into
> > > > > the bilge and into the boiler fire leading to fire/explosion and man
> > > > > overboard. A solar/propane bath recirculating system wouldn't likely
> > > > > run that same risk, but regardless, do please direct any propane
> > > vents
> > > > > overboard if using propane.
> > > > >
> > > > > -mt
> > > > >
> > > > > *From:* electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> > > <mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > [mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> > > <mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com>] *On Behalf Of *Ron
> > > > > *Sent:* Sunday, August 08, 2010 11:12 AM
> > > > > *To:* electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> > > <mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > *Subject:* Re: [Electric Boats] Water Temperature
> > > > >
> > > > > Bob,
> > > > > I guess the silence is loud and clear, Ned gave an answer that while
> > > > > correct, only confirms that efficency is extremly low and this is
> > > > > based on the use of water at a certain temperature as both the source
> > > > > and sink. The phrase "slow boat to china" comes to mind :)
> > > > >
> > > > > My idea of a waterfall thrugh the keel didn't seem to go very well,
> > > > > but then most questions and answers have been revolving around small
> > > > > amounts of generation or recovery.
> > > > >
> > > > > My thoughts about recovery of waste heat, or preventing overheating,
> > > > > involve the use of liquid propane as a sink (-44 degrees @ 0 psi) and
> > > > > if using a water surface temperature of 70 degrees, pressure will
> > > > > build to 110 psi.
> > > > >
> > > > > Having a temperature delta of -50 > +1200 F is easy to set up and
> > > such
> > > > > a wide range will only assist in speed of cycle and not so much about
> > > > > how much energy is taken in.
> > > > > The simple fact is, heat builds pressure and pressure produces work
> > > > > potential and mass flow equates to power.
> > > > >
> > > > > With those comments I'll withdraw the subject and carry on with my
> > > > > work as best I can.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers
> > > > > Ron
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Ubuntu10.04, Acer AspireOne, Virgin Mobile 3G Broadband2go.
> > > > Doesn't get any better than this!
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ubuntu10.04, Acer AspireOne, Virgin Mobile 3G Broadband2go.
> > Doesn't get any better than this!
> >
>
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