Thursday, July 31, 2014

Re: [Electric Boats] Grounding an electric conversion in fresh water

 

Here's my interpretation of the relevant ABYC standards.


E-11.16.1 Allows, but does not require, a DC grounding system to be installed.


E.11.16.25 If a DC grounding system is installed, it is allowed to be, but not required to be, combined with the lightning protection, cathodic bonding, and static electricity grounding systems.


E.11.5.4.7 Requires the AC system grounding bus to be connected to either the engine negative bus, or the DC main negative bus. 

E.11.5.7.4 Allows, but does not require, the negative side of the DC system to be connected to be connected to ground.

TE-30 Requires that the propulsion electrical system remain isolated from the boat's grounding system.

-Tom

__._,_.___
Posted by: boat_works@yahoo.com
Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (3)
Did You Know?
Learn all about Conversations within groups

.

__,_._,___
Posted by at No comments:

Re: [Electric Boats] Grounding an electric conversion in fresh water

 

You will get a lot of conflicting answers to this set of questions. If you follow ABYC E-11 all should be bonded to the shaft.  You can use a shaft brush to do it. 


I though I had pictures of my setup but I don't. I'll have to remember to take some pictures next time I am in the engine room. 

Either way,  ABYC E-11 recommends you ground to shaft at these voltages, at voltages higher then DC 48v and AC 220v. The recommendation change and you use ABYC TE-30



On Jul 31, 2014, at 2:39 PM, "Jason Taylor jt.yahoo@jtaylor.ca [electricboats]" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

I am close to finishing my conversion.
I have given little thought to grounding up until this point.

Super short version:
I have 3 electrical systems on the boat -- 48V DC, 12V DC, and 120V AC.
How do I treat the grounds for each of these?

So what are my grounding requirements?
- For the 48V:
- For the 12V:
- For the AC:

What are my grounding options?
- For the 48V:
- For the 12V:
- For the AC:

Facts:
As it stands now, my prop and shaft are isolated from the drive through
a flexible coupler.
All my through-hulls are bronze and are isolated.
In my 6 seasons in fresh water, I have had zero corrosion issues.
The mast and rigging is not bonded to the keel.
There is no RF counterpoise or ground-plane in the boat.
There is currently no Dynaplate of any kind.
The system was formerly grounded only through the engine
block-->transmission-->coupler-->shaft-->prop.
There is AC in the boat but it only interconnects with the DC system via
a battery charger.
The dock supplies a grounded 15A circuit which feeds into an AC panel
over the galley that has 3 breakers:
- GFCI over the galley counter (next to the AC panel) used mostly for
phone chargers and tools at the dock.
- 48V charger & 12V charger
- unused.
The AC system is not grounded at all through the boat.

Should the 48V system to stay floating? Meaning that the battery bank
negative connects to the motor controller negative, the DCDC converter
(which provides isolated 12v) negative, and the battery SoC meter. And
that is all.

The 12V system should be attached to some kind of ground, yes?
In that case, I should connect the negative bus bar in my 12V "battery
distribution panel" to a Dynaplate or some equivalent metal mass in
contact with the (fresh) water, right?

If I also connect the negative bus bar of my 48V system to this
dynaplate, will bad things happen?

Since I am sailing in fresh water, I will need more contact area between
the metal and the water in order to sink the same current, right?

Thanks in advance for your input.

Cheers,

/Jason

--
Jason Taylor
--
S/V Fugu
1978 Beneteau First 30
Electroprop PM-20

__._,_.___
Posted by: James Sizemore <james@deny.org>
Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (2)
Did You Know?
Learn all about Conversations within groups

.

__,_._,___
Posted by at No comments:

[Electric Boats] Grounding an electric conversion in fresh water

 

I am close to finishing my conversion.
I have given little thought to grounding up until this point.

Super short version:
I have 3 electrical systems on the boat -- 48V DC, 12V DC, and 120V AC.
How do I treat the grounds for each of these?

So what are my grounding requirements?
- For the 48V:
- For the 12V:
- For the AC:

What are my grounding options?
- For the 48V:
- For the 12V:
- For the AC:

Facts:
As it stands now, my prop and shaft are isolated from the drive through
a flexible coupler.
All my through-hulls are bronze and are isolated.
In my 6 seasons in fresh water, I have had zero corrosion issues.
The mast and rigging is not bonded to the keel.
There is no RF counterpoise or ground-plane in the boat.
There is currently no Dynaplate of any kind.
The system was formerly grounded only through the engine
block-->transmission-->coupler-->shaft-->prop.
There is AC in the boat but it only interconnects with the DC system via
a battery charger.
The dock supplies a grounded 15A circuit which feeds into an AC panel
over the galley that has 3 breakers:
- GFCI over the galley counter (next to the AC panel) used mostly for
phone chargers and tools at the dock.
- 48V charger & 12V charger
- unused.
The AC system is not grounded at all through the boat.

Should the 48V system to stay floating? Meaning that the battery bank
negative connects to the motor controller negative, the DCDC converter
(which provides isolated 12v) negative, and the battery SoC meter. And
that is all.

The 12V system should be attached to some kind of ground, yes?
In that case, I should connect the negative bus bar in my 12V "battery
distribution panel" to a Dynaplate or some equivalent metal mass in
contact with the (fresh) water, right?

If I also connect the negative bus bar of my 48V system to this
dynaplate, will bad things happen?

Since I am sailing in fresh water, I will need more contact area between
the metal and the water in order to sink the same current, right?

Thanks in advance for your input.

Cheers,

/Jason

--
Jason Taylor
--
S/V Fugu
1978 Beneteau First 30
Electroprop PM-20

__._,_.___
Posted by: Jason Taylor <jt.yahoo@jtaylor.ca>
Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (1)
Did You Know?
Learn all about Conversations within groups

.

__,_._,___
Posted by at No comments:

[Electric Boats] Re: Progress with DC brushless motor controller

 

Am I missing something here?  Is there not a BLDC controller on the market that is meeting the needs of marine propulsion systems?  Has anyone taken a look at Control Solutions (www.controls.com)....I also know of others from SevCon and a Canadian company, but wonder why anyone would build their own controller from scratch?

__._,_.___
Posted by: drhitch54@yahoo.com
Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (6)
Yahoo Groups
New feature! Create Photo Albums in Groups Effortlessly
Now, whenever you share photos with your group, a new album is automatically created in the Group. It's so simple! Try it now!

.

__,_._,___
Posted by at No comments:

Wednesday, July 30, 2014

Re: [Electric Boats] Electric Risør 27

 

That I did not know! Thanks for the tipp! I will check that out.
Bendik


2014-07-28 20:25 GMT+02:00 Bruce Wilder brucewild@gmail.com [electricboats] <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>:
 

Air conditioner compressor pumps have electric clutches to allow the pulley to freewheel.

On Jul 27, 2014, at 10:42 AM, "Bendik Vignes bendik.vignes@yahoo.com [electricboats]" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Hi!
Do any of you have suggestions for the power transmission system from the electric motor to the propeller shaft (hybrid system)? 
My best idea so far is to use a v-belt and a system where I can release/thighten the belt's tension (remote controlled via a wire). Thus I can operate in three modes: 
1. Electric only. 
2. Diesel + electric. (propulsion & battery charging) 
3. Diesel only. (the belt tension should be released or else I am afraid the diesel engine's gearbox will be damaged if the electric motor's rotation produces a torque on the propeller shaft when shifting between reverse/forward)

Estimated data:
Pully diameter: approx 160mm and 100mm
Center to center distance: approx 400mm
Peak power: approx 15-20kW
Continous power: approx 2kW

Regards 
Bendik


2014-07-06 8:24 GMT+02:00 Bendik Vignes <bendik.vignes@yahoo.com>:
Hi!
I just discovered the boost converter-solution myself, but thanks for the hints! ;-)
I have not found suitable solar boost charger so far, but I am wondering if this one can do the job (12V-80V,600W): http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-DC-DC-600W-10-60V-to-12-80V-Boost-Converter-Step-up-Module-Power-Supply-/271271664247?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f290d1a77 
I see two solutions:
Either to connected the boost converter between the solar controllers (for example 24V) and the battery (in parallell over the battery to achieve up to 160V). But I dont know if this set up can charge batteries, I would expect some need for voltage regulation since the Nicd cells rise from 6V to 8.15V during charging.
The other solution is to make a 24V battery from the Nicds - and connect the boost converter between the battery and the motor to increase the voltage to 120V. Then there will be needed around 40 of these boost converters (connected in series/parallell) to handle the peak power demand of approx 20kW.
I dont know if this will work, and I dont know if the efficiency of the boost converter vil drop dramatically when converting such large voltage step-ups. I better send the manufacturer a question... or I can buy a couple of them and test for my self. But how can a constant current source like a solar panel be imitated?

Lots of ?
I have started to repeat electric curcuit theory, but things take time with three small kids around ;-)

Bendik


2014-06-25 3:12 GMT+02:00 withaar@wylch.fastmail.fm [electricboats] <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>:

 

You need a "boost converter".

E.g.: http://www.electroschematics.com/9718/solar-boost-converter-mppt-charge-controller/

A search on "solar panel boost converter" should get you some results.

Willem




On 14-06-20 11:51 PM, Bendik Vignes bendik.vignes@yahoo.com [electricboats] wrote:
 
Are there any solar controller/charger for converting the low voltage signal from solar panels (several "12V"-panels i parallell) to a high voltage battery (120V).
Transformation from 12 to 120 volts should i theory not be a big deal, but I cant find solar controller/chargers for this purpose. Do any of you know?
Bendik 


2014-06-19 10:39 GMT+02:00 Bendik Vignes <bendik.vignes@yahoo.com>:
Here is a picture.of my boat. Not a beautiful one, but really nice for the family and it did not cost me a fortune:-)

On the front cabin roof there is space for five 0,5m2 panels. On the back cabin roof it space for one panel. And possibly one panel one each side of the boat (under the window)
Should all be connected in parallell I think...


2014-06-17 17:25 GMT+02:00 James Sizemore yamez4u@gmail.com [electricboats] <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>:

 
I'll be very interested in your Think drive train project.  

There are a couple of  SolbianFlex clones out there that use the same cells but at a much more "reasonable" price:


They may both be the same panel just re-branded by Grape. I have installed the Sacred ones on my boat and they do put out there rated power.
I do "walk" on them but only barefoot and very gingerly. At three hundred dollars a panel,  they are much cheaper then Solbian, but still expensive enough that I would not like to replace any!    

Two things to note.  First they did not use stainless steal for the through holes and second dealing with the top mounted connectors ascetically  is challenging to say the least.  Here are pictures of my install with the finger ducts I used to hide the top mount connectors: 


On Jun 17, 2014, at 8:14 AM, Bendik Vignes bendik.vignes@yahoo.com [electricboats] <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


Hi!
I live in Arendal, Norway, and I am new to this group. I dont have experience with these yahoo groups so sorry if I act a bit clumsy.

I am working on a electric propulsion boat project: 
It is a 27 feet "yacht" (Risør 27) from the early seventies. Displacement hull. 3500kg
Now it has a 1964 Mercedes OM636 diesel engine. Still works OK.
I bought the boat last summer and rather quickly I started to think about conversion to electric/hybrid.


__._,_.___
Posted by: Bendik Vignes <bendik.vignes@yahoo.com>
Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (12)
Yahoo Groups
New feature! Create Photo Albums in Groups Effortlessly
Now, whenever you share photos with your group, a new album is automatically created in the Group. It's so simple! Try it now!

.

__,_._,___
Posted by at No comments:

Re: [Electric Boats] Progress with DC brushless motor controller

 

Craig, if you like, I will open up my Kelly controller and take some pics. I haven't installed it yet so no major hassle to open it up for a peek inside.

__._,_.___
Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (4)
Yahoo Groups
New feature! Create Photo Albums in Groups Effortlessly
Now, whenever you share photos with your group, a new album is automatically created in the Group. It's so simple! Try it now!

.

__,_._,___
Posted by at No comments:

Re: [Electric Boats] Progress with DC brushless motor controller

 

Yikes! People spend a lot of time and usually a few tubes of mosfets
figuring out those sorts of parameters. I still don't have complete
reliability at high powers in my BLDC controllers (eg, 40+ battery
amps, 36+ volts). I think if I make all the gate wires twisted pairs
straight from the IC pins I may have dealt with the transients. But I
haven't had time to try it yet... in fact I haven't made a controller
in a couple of years owing to other projects (like the Electric Caik
motor and now the Electric Weel).

My controller is on http://www.TurquoiseEnergy.com somewhere under 'manuals'.

Craig

=====

>My test setup using an inexpensive low power (10-30 Volt 10 amp) PWM
>motor controller to drive a bank of high power STP75NF75 MOSFETs
>looks very promising. These MOSFETs are rated 75 Volts and 80 AMPS
>so I plan to parallel at least 6 of them for 480 AMPS. The Battery
>Bank will be only 48 volts, which is sufficient for the ME0709 motor
>in my sailboat installation.
>
>In my test set-up I used a 400V 70 Amp blocking diode to across the
>motor leads to block the reverse EMF  and a 1000 ohm resistor to
>maintain the MOSFET gate at ground when not energized by the
>controller. The unloaded motor responded very well over full range
>of controller.  Questions for electronic experts:
>
>1.  1. Can I just simply parallel the MOSFETs on a single heat
>sink or do I need some resistive isolation between them on the gates?
>
>2. 2.  What else should I use to protect the MOSFETs from
>transients? More diodes? Zener diodes? Capacitors? Have seen various
>written advice
>
>3. 3.  If I assume all motor starts will be ramped up from low
>levels, and there will be no starting surge it does not seem that I
>need pre-charge capacitors found with many commercial controllers.
>Is this correct or am I missing something?
>
>Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
>
>Art
>
>
>

__._,_.___
Posted by: Craig Carmichael <craig@saers.com>
Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (2)
Yahoo Groups
Did you Know?
Learn about attachment settings in your groups.

.

__,_._,___
Posted by at No comments:

Tuesday, July 29, 2014

Re: [Electric Boats] Progress with DC brushless motor controller

 

Hi Art!

You can put IGBT or mosfets parallel on the same heat sink . You haw to calculate the heat dissipation .I would recommend IGBT vs mosfet. The ON resistance is lover ,so generate minimum heat .In the gate circuit should haw a resistor / diod network .prox 4-5 ohm parallel with a high speed diode .(anod to gate)
A Waristor    need to be installed drain -source on your case 60 volt 2000 amp.   

how big is you motor? brass les or  commutator type ?
Tom

From: "jortlif@msn.com [electricboats]" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2014 3:28 PM
Subject: [Electric Boats] Progress with DC brushless motor controller

 
My test setup using an inexpensive low power (10-30 Volt 10 amp) PWM motor controller to drive a bank of high power STP75NF75 MOSFETs looks very promising. These MOSFETs are rated 75 Volts and 80 AMPS so I plan to parallel at least 6 of them for 480 AMPS.  The Battery Bank will be only 48 volts, which is sufficient for the ME0709 motor in my sailboat installation.
In my test set-up I used a 400V 70 Amp blocking diode to across the motor leads to block the reverse EMF  and a 1000 ohm resistor to maintain the MOSFET gate at ground when not  energized by the controller. The unloaded motor responded very well over full range of controller.  Questions for electronic experts:
1.       1. Can I just simply parallel the MOSFETs on a single heat sink or do I need some resistive isolation between them on the gates?
2.      2.  What else should I use to protect the MOSFETs from transients? More diodes? Zener diodes? Capacitors? Have seen various written advice
3.      3.  If I assume all motor starts will be ramped up from low levels, and there will be no starting surge it does not seem that I need pre-charge capacitors found with many commercial controllers. Is this correct or am I missing something?
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
Art



__._,_.___
Posted by: Tamas Becse <tbecse@yahoo.com>
Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (5)
Yahoo Groups
New feature! Create Photo Albums in Groups Effortlessly
Now, whenever you share photos with your group, a new album is automatically created in the Group. It's so simple! Try it now!

.

__,_._,___
Posted by at No comments:

Re: [Electric Boats] Electric Risør 27

 


69 cents a watt
 
Use a maximum power point charge controller into battery. 12 volts is low.


On Tuesday, July 29, 2014 2:36 PM, "Bruce Wilder brucewild@gmail.com [electricboats]" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 
Air conditioner compressor pumps have electric clutches to allow the pulley to freewheel.

On Jul 27, 2014, at 10:42 AM, "Bendik Vignes bendik.vignes@yahoo.com [electricboats]" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 
Hi!
Do any of you have suggestions for the power transmission system from the electric motor to the propeller shaft (hybrid system)? 
My best idea so far is to use a v-belt and a system where I can release/thighten the belt's tension (remote controlled via a wire). Thus I can operate in three modes: 
1. Electric only. 
2. Diesel + electric. (propulsion & battery charging) 
3. Diesel only. (the belt tension should be released or else I am afraid the diesel engine's gearbox will be damaged if the electric motor's rotation produces a torque on the propeller shaft when shifting between reverse/forward)

Estimated data:
Pully diameter: approx 160mm and 100mm
Center to center distance: approx 400mm
Peak power: approx 15-20kW
Continous power: approx 2kW

Regards 
Bendik


2014-07-06 8:24 GMT+02:00 Bendik Vignes <bendik.vignes@yahoo.com>:
Hi!
I just discovered the boost converter-solution myself, but thanks for the hints! ;-)
I have not found suitable solar boost charger so far, but I am wondering if this one can do the job (12V-80V,600W): http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-DC-DC-600W-10-60V-to-12-80V-Boost-Converter-Step-up-Module-Power-Supply-/271271664247?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f290d1a77 
I see two solutions:
Either to connected the boost converter between the solar controllers (for example 24V) and the battery (in parallell over the battery to achieve up to 160V). But I dont know if this set up can charge batteries, I would expect some need for voltage regulation since the Nicd cells rise from 6V to 8.15V during charging.
The other solution is to make a 24V battery from the Nicds - and connect the boost converter between the battery and the motor to increase the voltage to 120V. Then there will be needed around 40 of these boost converters (connected in series/parallell) to handle the peak power demand of approx 20kW.
I dont know if this will work, and I dont know if the efficiency of the boost converter vil drop dramatically when converting such large voltage step-ups. I better send the manufacturer a question... or I can buy a couple of them and test for my self. But how can a constant current source like a solar panel be imitated?

Lots of ?
I have started to repeat electric curcuit theory, but things take time with three small kids around ;-)

Bendik


2014-06-25 3:12 GMT+02:00 withaar@wylch.fastmail.fm [electricboats] <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>:

 
You need a "boost converter".

E.g.: http://www.electroschematics.com/9718/solar-boost-converter-mppt-charge-controller/

A search on "solar panel boost converter" should get you some results.

Willem



On 14-06-20 11:51 PM, Bendik Vignes bendik.vignes@yahoo.com [electricboats] wrote:
 
Are there any solar controller/charger for converting the low voltage signal from solar panels (several "12V"-panels i parallell) to a high voltage battery (120V).
Transformation from 12 to 120 volts should i theory not be a big deal, but I cant find solar controller/chargers for this purpose. Do any of you know?
Bendik 


2014-06-19 10:39 GMT+02:00 Bendik Vignes <bendik.vignes@yahoo.com>:
Here is a picture.of my boat. Not a beautiful one, but really nice for the family and it did not cost me a fortune:-)

On the front cabin roof there is space for five 0,5m2 panels. On the back cabin roof it space for one panel. And possibly one panel one each side of the boat (under the window)
Should all be connected in parallell I think...


2014-06-17 17:25 GMT+02:00 James Sizemore yamez4u@gmail.com [electricboats] <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>:

 
I'll be very interested in your Think drive train project.  

There are a couple of  SolbianFlex clones out there that use the same cells but at a much more "reasonable" price:


They may both be the same panel just re-branded by Grape. I have installed the Sacred ones on my boat and they do put out there rated power.
I do "walk" on them but only barefoot and very gingerly. At three hundred dollars a panel,  they are much cheaper then Solbian, but still expensive enough that I would not like to replace any!    

Two things to note.  First they did not use stainless steal for the through holes and second dealing with the top mounted connectors ascetically  is challenging to say the least.  Here are pictures of my install with the finger ducts I used to hide the top mount connectors: 


On Jun 17, 2014, at 8:14 AM, Bendik Vignes bendik.vignes@yahoo.com [electricboats] <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


Hi!
I live in Arendal, Norway, and I am new to this group. I dont have experience with these yahoo groups so sorry if I act a bit clumsy.

I am working on a electric propulsion boat project: 
It is a 27 feet "yacht" (Risør 27) from the early seventies. Displacement hull. 3500kg
Now it has a 1964 Mercedes OM636 diesel engine. Still works OK.
I bought the boat last summer and rather quickly I started to think about conversion to electric/hybrid.



__._,_.___
Posted by: Kirk McLoren <kirkmcloren@yahoo.com>
Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (11)
Yahoo Groups
Did you Know?
Learn about attachment settings in your groups.

.

__,_._,___
Posted by at No comments:
Subscribe to: Posts (Atom)