Hi Myles,
Sorry about my long post, I'll shorten them in the future.
Ron
--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Myles Twete" <matwete@...> wrote:
>
> John- If corporations "hate innovation, because it involves risk " then we'd
> not have much of what distinguishes the world today from the world 10yrs
> ago. We bought our first cell phones just 10yrs ago at a time when they
> weren't yet ubiquitous and we were only barely living our lives in other
> people's phone booths. Today, we not only live in one giant phone booth,
> but those under 16yrs old probably don't know what a phone booth is.
>
> Innovation is essential for corporations despite your experience with them
> being disinterested in your designs. And I wouldn't have a job now if it
> weren't for a company that is constantly trying to push the boundaries of
> physics to keep up with Moore's Law.
>
>
>
> You seem to think that battery manufacturers haven't been innovating.perhaps
> you need to spend time looking at Dow/Kokam or A123 lithium cells and how
> EVs which use them are setting records at the drag strip and the salt flats.
> Just 15 years ago, when Cobasys sealed NiMH batteries' fate with EVs by
> making their licensing prohibitive, they opened the doors for investments in
> lithium. These days, lithium batteries are cheaper than equivalent NiMH as
> they are cheaper to make. Innovation happens if you want to survive in
> business.
>
>
>
> Let's keep posts short folks.go longer or swerve way off topic and you risk
> delayed or deleted posts.you put in the time, please don't make me delete
> it!
>
>
>
> -Moderator
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: electricboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of John Green
> Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 4:29 AM
> To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Electric Boats] re New Ideas ?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi, Ron,
> I have no idea how to track post numbers, I use the group by email only.
> I can however repeat it as far as I can remember.
> I had been looking at the group discussions, which around that time, (a
> year ago?) seemed to be about batteries, with a few posts about
> batteries, interspersed with some posts about batteries. (Those with
> zero sense of humour, or who suffer from internet rage, please ignore
> that last sentence)
> Anyway, to get to the point, I once visited a house that was off grid,
> and the guy had a small windmill generator on the roof I think it was
> mounted, and he had made his own batteries, using old ceramic kitchen
> sinks. Big cells, holding a few gallons of acid. I believe that the
> system was 12 volt.
> So, I was thinking, why pay $100 for a battery when a few sheets of lead
> can be sunk into a dollarstore plastic bucket (not really, the cheap
> buckets are too brittle to be safe) and some acid poured in, and there
> you have it. (Might be an idea to vent the hydrogen out of the way, and
> a lid would be good, too)
> One response was that it was not a good idea, safetywise, and I agreed,
> but at the same time, if I currently needed a bank of, say, 32
> batteries, and wanted them to be paid for without involving the wife, or
> any other mental abuse, I might be tempted.
> Another point I made, was that such a battery could be moulded in shape
> to fit the hull. There might be problems when heeled.
> Funny really, before checking my email and finding this, I was musing
> that it is about time I got off my butt and obtain the shaft measurement
> for the boat, and get started buying stuff to get the electric venture
> rolling, without bothering with testing stuff on a dinghy. I had the
> size written down a few months ago, but mislaid it. Got one or two
> things collected though. Right now, the ICE is in the way, and it has to
> come out.
>
> I like the oil filled motor idea. My concern would be that the wire
> insulating enamel might not be oil proof in some way. And the inner
> winding will cool less than the outer. That could be adjusted by having
> the inner windings made of thicker gauge wire, so that the heat is all
> on the outer part. Also, you need a bladder of air in there to deal with
> expansion with heat. The shaft seals, too would need to be doubled up,
> face to face, as you want the oil kept in, and the water out, during
> times the thing is pressurising and depressurising with heat expansion.
> Or you could vent it well above water level. Might be a good idea to add
> a moisture sensor near the bottom, to warn of water getting in. Maybe
> they make such things? I suspect that some luxury cars surely have
> something like that to switch on the wipers, and if not, I just invented
> that too, for free.
>
> Finally, (final BOOK of this post, that is!) I totally and absolutely,
> for maybe the first time ever, disagree with Eric, regarding the value
> of free ideas. First, they might fairly instantly lead to a better and
> obviously high valued idea or application. Most ideas develop through
> design or application changes very fast after first presentation to
> other people.
> Second, it is no good believing what upper level corporate people, or
> their sales staff tell you. The plain fact is, they hate innovation,
> because it involves risk, and they are self-serving enough to place
> their own credibility and secure yet boring shareholder profits WAY
> ahead of all else. Same as they will assure all around them that they
> are good communicators, yet lower levels always, in my experience, give
> greater responses to letters or emails, the higher levels generally not
> even having the good manners to respond at all. Information flow is a
> one-way process to gain power. Probably no response because they are too
> busy phoning their broker to buy more offshore gold after selling some
> home country manufacturing stocks. They imagine that they are doing a
> good job, because their underlings give the 'yes's' that they seek, and
> they have enough profits to award themselves bonuses. The easy way out
> for them is to accept zero ideas, then they have zero risk. They have a
> slightly valid point. Some ideas don't work out. Some do.
> When in UK as a teenager, I looked at the van craze in the US, and I
> designed - in sketches! - a conversion of an Austin Maxi or similar
> front drive, transverse engined car, to become what we now know as the
> Dodge Caravan, a front wheel drive van of decent capacity. 20 years,
> maybe 30, too early. I curse my own genius, hehehe.
> I attempted a few years ago, with a friend, to make a business of
> inventing. There are still a few unexploited ideas that we dropped, one
> of which would revolutionise infantry warfare. It will never happen. A
> manufacturer that was approached refused to sign a confidentiality
> agreement, as he thought that there was a possibility that he might have
> a similar idea in the works, and it would create legal issues. That was
> ten years ago, maybe more. I guess that his company's ideas are not as
> good as those that my friend and I still have, as the idea remains
> dormant. And I have moral issues about offering such a thing to other
> countries.
> I once offered a complete set of CAD drawings of a novel product free,
> as a test of my theory that there are few innovative minded companies,
> to a company with a similar, associated successful product, and received
> no response. I guess that they were too busy making less money from the
> single product that they already had. I did not say what product the
> drawings were for, so it can't have been that they thought that the idea
> had no value.
> Converting this thinking to the group activities, there is a good reason
> why commercially successful electric drives all have a few common
> elements, and that is, large enough power motor to allow a reasonable
> power comparison with an ICE, large enough battery bank to give range
> that is comparable to that of an ICE, and speed control similar to,
> guess what, that of an ICE.
> And this is why they are successful drives. The bulk of end purchasers
> are more comfortable with a similar performance replacement of the ICE.
> There is less risk than going with my 'crackpot' ideas of minimalist
> power, and Chinese scooter hub drives in the shaft coupling to give
> hybrid capability, and such like.
> And there is probably an untapped market of customers, even in this
> economy, who would buy electric drives by the thousand if they were
> substantially cheaper, even if more limited in features.
> Many ideas that are free do have low 'current' value though, but only
> because they have already been done, thus actually proving that they are
> good viable ideas. I am always delighted as well as disappointed when I
> find that my 'great idea' has already been thought of.
> My closing point must be a question to you Ron, and that is, did the
> motor change the flavour of the wife's french fries?
>
> John
>
>
> 1a. New Ideas ?
> Posted by: "Ron" rlgravel@... <mailto:rlgravel%40swbell.net>
> rlgravel@... <mailto:rlgravel%40swbell.net>
> Date: Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:08 am ((PDT))
>
> Hi everyone,
> Just tried to search for John Green's post on "making lead acid
> batteries", his statement "so others would work on it, not me!".
> John, I hope my post about making a new style of battery was not a
> "claim jump" of your's.
> In the search I did find a comment of interest, where John dunked his
> electric motor in salt water (and the results) when he was a kid.
>
> Now for something someone might find of interest.
>
> I guess I'm still a kid at heart (fast approaching 70)and just last week
> I dunked a small brush motor in a pint of my wife's favorite cooking
> oil, just to see, what increase in drag or loss of electrical contact,
> might take place. At 20v DC, I checked amp draw operating in air, the
> results 0.3, then in oil, still 0.3 and after almost one hour, the oil
> started to show a slight grey from carbon brush wear and about every 80
> or 90 seconds the amp meter would move to 0.4, then back to 0.3, The
> next night I let it run for almost 3 hours.
> One unexpected result was the complete loss of sound, now this is a very
> small and cheap motor, so on to the next step, a gallon or two of clear
> hydraulic oil, a filter of some type and one of my cheap 2hp treadmill
> motors.
> If I don't get called out on some work assignment, I will try to find
> time between the honey-do projects and give some results.
>
> This line of thought comes from the 60's submersibles using oil filled
> motor pods (likely not brushed motors) and someone on the net showing a
> computer tower completely filled with mineral oil.
>
> What I think will be important,
> A. Increased power through a motor
> B. Better control of heat
> C. Contained heat put to other use
> D. Complete lubrication of all moving parts
> E. Changing carbon brush to Oil-ite bronze material for almost life long
> operation, possible because of lubrication
> F. All electronics clear coated with some type sealer and submerged in
> cool liquid.
> G. Elimination of all saltwater worries
> F. Oil can be refrigerated for even more power through the system
> H. Sound reduction of everything that can be enclosed in oil, including
> shaft reduction unit
> I. This cool oil circulation system can even include capture of heat
> loss to and from battery system, (proper seal is not impossible)
>
> The list could go on, but then I start to sound like a crackpot, as
> evidenced by not one reply of any nature, to my post for a lead acid
> battery design.
> Like John Green, I'm a thinker more than a do'er. Focus almost a
> complete loss, low usable cash flow, life is flying past at an alarming
> rate.
> I thought selling "free ideas" might be easy with the internet, but it
> just might be the hardest sells job on the planet :))
>
> John, can you give me the post number for what you said about making
> lead acid batteries.
>
> Thanks
> Ron
>
>
> --
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