John- If corporations “hate innovation, because it involves risk “ then we’d not have much of what distinguishes the world today from the world 10yrs ago. We bought our first cell phones just 10yrs ago at a time when they weren’t yet ubiquitous and we were only barely living our lives in other people’s phone booths. Today, we not only live in one giant phone booth, but those under 16yrs old probably don’t know what a phone booth is.
Innovation is essential for corporations despite your experience with them being disinterested in your designs. And I wouldn’t have a job now if it weren’t for a company that is constantly trying to push the boundaries of physics to keep up with Moore’s Law.
You seem to think that battery manufacturers haven’t been innovating…perhaps you need to spend time looking at Dow/Kokam or A123 lithium cells and how EVs which use them are setting records at the drag strip and the salt flats. Just 15 years ago, when Cobasys sealed NiMH batteries’ fate with EVs by making their licensing prohibitive, they opened the doors for investments in lithium. These days, lithium batteries are cheaper than equivalent NiMH as they are cheaper to make. Innovation happens if you want to survive in business.
Let’s keep posts short folks…go longer or swerve way off topic and you risk delayed or deleted posts…you put in the time, please don’t make me delete it!
-Moderator
From: electricboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Green
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 4:29 AM
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Electric Boats] re New Ideas ?
Hi, Ron,
I have no idea how to track post numbers, I use the group by email only.
I can however repeat it as far as I can remember.
I had been looking at the group discussions, which around that time, (a
year ago?) seemed to be about batteries, with a few posts about
batteries, interspersed with some posts about batteries. (Those with
zero sense of humour, or who suffer from internet rage, please ignore
that last sentence)
Anyway, to get to the point, I once visited a house that was off grid,
and the guy had a small windmill generator on the roof I think it was
mounted, and he had made his own batteries, using old ceramic kitchen
sinks. Big cells, holding a few gallons of acid. I believe that the
system was 12 volt.
So, I was thinking, why pay $100 for a battery when a few sheets of lead
can be sunk into a dollarstore plastic bucket (not really, the cheap
buckets are too brittle to be safe) and some acid poured in, and there
you have it. (Might be an idea to vent the hydrogen out of the way, and
a lid would be good, too)
One response was that it was not a good idea, safetywise, and I agreed,
but at the same time, if I currently needed a bank of, say, 32
batteries, and wanted them to be paid for without involving the wife, or
any other mental abuse, I might be tempted.
Another point I made, was that such a battery could be moulded in shape
to fit the hull. There might be problems when heeled.
Funny really, before checking my email and finding this, I was musing
that it is about time I got off my butt and obtain the shaft measurement
for the boat, and get started buying stuff to get the electric venture
rolling, without bothering with testing stuff on a dinghy. I had the
size written down a few months ago, but mislaid it. Got one or two
things collected though. Right now, the ICE is in the way, and it has to
come out.
I like the oil filled motor idea. My concern would be that the wire
insulating enamel might not be oil proof in some way. And the inner
winding will cool less than the outer. That could be adjusted by having
the inner windings made of thicker gauge wire, so that the heat is all
on the outer part. Also, you need a bladder of air in there to deal with
expansion with heat. The shaft seals, too would need to be doubled up,
face to face, as you want the oil kept in, and the water out, during
times the thing is pressurising and depressurising with heat expansion.
Or you could vent it well above water level. Might be a good idea to add
a moisture sensor near the bottom, to warn of water getting in. Maybe
they make such things? I suspect that some luxury cars surely have
something like that to switch on the wipers, and if not, I just invented
that too, for free.
Finally, (final BOOK of this post, that is!) I totally and absolutely,
for maybe the first time ever, disagree with Eric, regarding the value
of free ideas. First, they might fairly instantly lead to a better and
obviously high valued idea or application. Most ideas develop through
design or application changes very fast after first presentation to
other people.
Second, it is no good believing what upper level corporate people, or
their sales staff tell you. The plain fact is, they hate innovation,
because it involves risk, and they are self-serving enough to place
their own credibility and secure yet boring shareholder profits WAY
ahead of all else. Same as they will assure all around them that they
are good communicators, yet lower levels always, in my experience, give
greater responses to letters or emails, the higher levels generally not
even having the good manners to respond at all. Information flow is a
one-way process to gain power. Probably no response because they are too
busy phoning their broker to buy more offshore gold after selling some
home country manufacturing stocks. They imagine that they are doing a
good job, because their underlings give the 'yes's' that they seek, and
they have enough profits to award themselves bonuses. The easy way out
for them is to accept zero ideas, then they have zero risk. They have a
slightly valid point. Some ideas don't work out. Some do.
When in UK as a teenager, I looked at the van craze in the US, and I
designed - in sketches! - a conversion of an Austin Maxi or similar
front drive, transverse engined car, to become what we now know as the
Dodge Caravan, a front wheel drive van of decent capacity. 20 years,
maybe 30, too early. I curse my own genius, hehehe.
I attempted a few years ago, with a friend, to make a business of
inventing. There are still a few unexploited ideas that we dropped, one
of which would revolutionise infantry warfare. It will never happen. A
manufacturer that was approached refused to sign a confidentiality
agreement, as he thought that there was a possibility that he might have
a similar idea in the works, and it would create legal issues. That was
ten years ago, maybe more. I guess that his company's ideas are not as
good as those that my friend and I still have, as the idea remains
dormant. And I have moral issues about offering such a thing to other
countries.
I once offered a complete set of CAD drawings of a novel product free,
as a test of my theory that there are few innovative minded companies,
to a company with a similar, associated successful product, and received
no response. I guess that they were too busy making less money from the
single product that they already had. I did not say what product the
drawings were for, so it can't have been that they thought that the idea
had no value.
Converting this thinking to the group activities, there is a good reason
why commercially successful electric drives all have a few common
elements, and that is, large enough power motor to allow a reasonable
power comparison with an ICE, large enough battery bank to give range
that is comparable to that of an ICE, and speed control similar to,
guess what, that of an ICE.
And this is why they are successful drives. The bulk of end purchasers
are more comfortable with a similar performance replacement of the ICE.
There is less risk than going with my 'crackpot' ideas of minimalist
power, and Chinese scooter hub drives in the shaft coupling to give
hybrid capability, and such like.
And there is probably an untapped market of customers, even in this
economy, who would buy electric drives by the thousand if they were
substantially cheaper, even if more limited in features.
Many ideas that are free do have low 'current' value though, but only
because they have already been done, thus actually proving that they are
good viable ideas. I am always delighted as well as disappointed when I
find that my 'great idea' has already been thought of.
My closing point must be a question to you Ron, and that is, did the
motor change the flavour of the wife's french fries?
John
1a. New Ideas ?
Posted by: "Ron" rlgravel@swbell.net rlgravel@swbell.net
Date: Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:08 am ((PDT))
Hi everyone,
Just tried to search for John Green's post on "making lead acid
batteries", his statement "so others would work on it, not me!".
John, I hope my post about making a new style of battery was not a
"claim jump" of your's.
In the search I did find a comment of interest, where John dunked his
electric motor in salt water (and the results) when he was a kid.
Now for something someone might find of interest.
I guess I'm still a kid at heart (fast approaching 70)and just last week
I dunked a small brush motor in a pint of my wife's favorite cooking
oil, just to see, what increase in drag or loss of electrical contact,
might take place. At 20v DC, I checked amp draw operating in air, the
results 0.3, then in oil, still 0.3 and after almost one hour, the oil
started to show a slight grey from carbon brush wear and about every 80
or 90 seconds the amp meter would move to 0.4, then back to 0.3, The
next night I let it run for almost 3 hours.
One unexpected result was the complete loss of sound, now this is a very
small and cheap motor, so on to the next step, a gallon or two of clear
hydraulic oil, a filter of some type and one of my cheap 2hp treadmill
motors.
If I don't get called out on some work assignment, I will try to find
time between the honey-do projects and give some results.
This line of thought comes from the 60's submersibles using oil filled
motor pods (likely not brushed motors) and someone on the net showing a
computer tower completely filled with mineral oil.
What I think will be important,
A. Increased power through a motor
B. Better control of heat
C. Contained heat put to other use
D. Complete lubrication of all moving parts
E. Changing carbon brush to Oil-ite bronze material for almost life long
operation, possible because of lubrication
F. All electronics clear coated with some type sealer and submerged in
cool liquid.
G. Elimination of all saltwater worries
F. Oil can be refrigerated for even more power through the system
H. Sound reduction of everything that can be enclosed in oil, including
shaft reduction unit
I. This cool oil circulation system can even include capture of heat
loss to and from battery system, (proper seal is not impossible)
The list could go on, but then I start to sound like a crackpot, as
evidenced by not one reply of any nature, to my post for a lead acid
battery design.
Like John Green, I'm a thinker more than a do'er. Focus almost a
complete loss, low usable cash flow, life is flying past at an alarming
rate.
I thought selling "free ideas" might be easy with the internet, but it
just might be the hardest sells job on the planet :))
John, can you give me the post number for what you said about making
lead acid batteries.
Thanks
Ron
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