Thanks to one and all,
A lot of good comments, of which I agree with most, even made a positive spin out of the armchair comment :).
I can't maintain thought control long enough to reply to all, so please forgive the generalized statement to follow.
The link to MIT research into electrolyte in a paste form, flowing through lead plates was close to this idea that I have studied about for years. Finding information outside standard practice is, (for me at least) somewhat difficult.
My first real confidence builder, was when I found the Optima "pure lead technology" patented concept, of which I think exceeds 100 different patents.
I invented in my mind, a shot drop method to produce copper balls and lead balls, only to find out on the net, that happened in the very early 1800's. Like john said, you feel good and sad at the same time.
Back to point.
Like almost everyone in this group, I also tend to need things to be much cheaper than they can be manufactured, which leads me into the thoughts of DIY, and being somewhat handy I have probably saved more money than I have earned over my lifetime. I view this as equal to earned income and a reward of tools and knowledge as leftovers.
Battery technology has made great advance over the years, but still the need for close monitoring and great caution in charging and discharging, lead to the ruin and early death of the majority of every failed unit.
The acid and lead never go bad, the static structure is always the reason of shorted, warped, or sulphated coating that prevents chemical action from taking place.
hanermo, your examples are good and pretty well correct, but you went straight to our present method of battery construction, which I think is at a almost perfected state, no way would I think of competing there.
My thought presentation needs no real details for anyone that really understands the lead/acid action and reactions. Electric charge and discharge will cause the surface structure to take place and as the battery is used these conditions will increase and decrease in relation to chemistry leached coatings.
The ball mill action in liquid electrolyte allows a cleaning and filtering of lead balls as needed and just to a minimal amount so as to not take away the active surface.
My question from before has not been answered, can the sulphate crystals be recycled ??
A hot 700F ni-chrome wire will melt lead powder and make a new ball (which does not need to be perfectly round) using a completely automated micro system, a fully mechanical fluid motion battery, might function for many years and 1,000's of cycles, needing no more attention than, a day tank cooling system.
This is a major change of design, not technology. If it is not new thinking, then when and where has anyone tested it?, if it is not possible why ? My testing has been lead strips in a jar of acid, a small and quick charge, then an equally short motor run. The lead and acid have set for several years and have had no decay of either. I do tend to favor other less risky things to play with. :)
If I possessed all the qualifying requirements to patent and develop this idea, I suspect an income beyond Bill Gates would not be unexpected or unreasonable.
Knowing my limits and desires, this idea is of no more value to me, than 100 million dollars of crude oil two miles below my feet, in time there will be plenty of qualified helpers, willing to get the oil.
I have a big arsenal of armchair designs, all based on 50 years of operation of mechanical things. I just felt there might be someone in the boating world that is interested and able to find if the potential I see is really there. Energy storage, will never be cheaper or more plentiful than lead/acid.
As for the oil cooled motor, a circulating and filtered system should allow that E-Teck? 30HP output for 30 seconds to be extended to constant duty or close, provided the oil flow and temperature are moved at a rate that takes away that heat rejection.
I have seen many motors in liquid, just not brushed units, as Arby mentioned. I just feel the increase of power through smaller electrical things, along with capture of usable heat, otherwise wasted, should be something of interest to almost everyone.
Thanks to anyone that made it to this point
Ron
--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "\"hanermo\" - CNC 6-axis Designs" <gcode.fi@...> wrote:
>
> John G, Ron, etc..
> I for one like the ideas, even off the wall ones.
>
> However, I would caution that ideas in and of themselves have no to
> little value.
> Ideas with a practical implementation and proof of concept have great value.
>
> The differencence betwen the two is an invention and a crackpot scheme!
>
> So, any idea involving, say, batteries (the making of), solar cells (the
> making of), generation of electricity (windwill, regen, battery-gen,
> scooter motors with hub drives) etc. to be real, credible and
> implementable shoud have some fundamentals along with it.
>
> These fundamentals involve, at a minimum, a good concept of what it
> takes to make one, in time, labour and materials, cost of same,
> difficulty of same.
> A sketch and or reference to the fundamental physics involved is also
> helpful and desirable.
> Math, physics calculations etc. are NOT essential, just a definition of
> how one might calculate such if one has the skills.
>
> Some examples;
> I want to make batteries (compared to a store bought 100$ battery).
> (numbers are from my head, and not fact checked).
>
> I will put in lead plate (of 1 square meter surface area, 1 mm thick.)
> The lead will have a mass of 25 kg.
> I will buy the lead from (mcmaster-carr, msi, misumi, etc. and they
> freight and hazmat charges will be say 80$, plus the lead, 125$).
> I will put in as "few gallons of acid", say 20 litres.
> The acid will come from chemical supply house, and I will do the
> required security certificates related to potential explosives precursors.
> The acid will cost me 100$ (5$ a litre sounds reasonable).
> I will put it in a stone container, say an old stone container
> (carfofagus ?) I happen to have lying around.
>
> Thus, from the above, because of the cost of lead, cost of acid, and
> lack of suitable free surplus stone carcofagi I can easily conclude that
> making batteries is unlikely to be succesful for me, and other people,
> compared to buying the same from say Sams club, Walmart, etc.
>
> You CANNOT ignore cost of anything related to building or making
> anything, without instantly losing credibility.
> A credible build or invention takes them into account, and defines what
> and how are your sources for the needed material.
>
> It is extremely easy to use existing resources (wealth) and use it to
> generate more wealth.
> This is neither a process or invention, it is simply a way of utilising
> already existing resources.
>
> An example would be using say 10 tons of gold, that you have, to ballast
> your boat, instead of lead.
> Thus "saving" the 5000$ in costs of buying the lead.
>
> This is conceptually similar to the definition of "making a battery",
> with "some stuff", without specifying what stuff, how much it costs,
> where You will get it from, how you will use, process and manage it, and
> what you will get out of it.
> Details are important, in fact they are crucial.
> So is implementation.
> In fact, most succesfull companies, ideas and businesses in the world
> thrive on world-class implementation rather than a good idea.
> Some examples would be VHS, Microsoft, IBM, Sony, Gillette, Kodak,
> Hoover to name a few.
> Once upon a time an idea existed, and many companies had similar ideas
> and processes and products. However, the one to win (sell) was the one
> to implement it well, rather than the one with a good idea of indeed the
> best idea.
>
> For success in something, you must be able to define who, what, why,
> when, where and how much. And how long it takes.
> Errors in any part are allowable, as long as they are a fraction rather
> than orders or magnitude.
> The ballasting boats with "gold I happen to have" is a good example.
>
> Utilising existing resources to leverage technology is a perfectly valid
> path.
> Just make sure you know what it costs if you don´t have it, as otherwise
> the correct, much easier, and much better path is usually sell the extra
> resource (like the gold), use some of the money to buy the lead you
> need, and keep the rest.
>
> Efficiently leveraging existign resources might be your (or someone you
> know, a relative, a friend etc) farm, on which you can build the boat
> rent-free.
> Or a machine shop you own/work at/is a friends where you can use their
> tools/know-how/experience etc. for "free".
>
> Your house roof as a place to put a solar farm is a good example.
> You already own it, have access to it, and are unlikely to be using it
> for much of anything.
> Here you are leveraging an asset you already have, and it is an asset
> that most people will have in a similar way.
>
> I am not being negative, just injecting some realism and a path to
> commercial success with these ideas.
> Best,
> hanermo
>
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