Tuesday, August 31, 2010

Re: [Electric Boats] Props [1 Attachment]

 
[Attachment(s) from Daniel Michaels included below]

Richard I think it is going to depend on what you expect while motoring. Here is a spreadsheet you can use to figure out what you may get. If you email the guy that did the spreadsheet he will send you an updated one that you cannot distribute. He only wants the real numbers you get once you get set up. The other thing you can do is just run the prop while sailing at a very low rate just enough to negate the drag. It does not use that much juice.

Dan

--- On Tue, 8/31/10, fullkeel2000 <fullkeel2000@yahoo.ca> wrote:

From: fullkeel2000 <fullkeel2000@yahoo.ca>
Subject: [Electric Boats] Props
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 7:13 PM

 

Greetings all
our boat that we are converting to electric power is an Alberg 30. 9000 displacement (until we add our cruising 21'8" water line (when not healed)
Question is regarding the prop.Since we want to stay with a 2 blade (want to keep the amazing light air performance with the prop hidden behind the full-keel) and can go no bigger than a 13" it was recommended that we go to a 13x12 to replace the current 13x7
i would love to know what anyone with a simiular sized boat is using

Thanks Richard


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Attachment(s) from Daniel Michaels

1 of 1 File(s)

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[Electric Boats] Re: Props

 

Hi Richard,

I am slightly heavier and am using a 13x13. However, it is likely "over-pitched" since I can exceed max amps (100) with my current gear reduction (~2:1)

I am now debating moving to a higher reduction ratio - closer to 2.5:1 vs getting a lower-pitched prop. My understanding is being somewhat over-pitched means you get a little more speed in smooth water, but less "bollard pull" to tackle headwinds and such.

So I'm just hijacking your question and maybe we both get good advice :) (fwiw I already have the gear reduction, so prop route is more expensive)

-Keith

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "fullkeel2000" <fullkeel2000@...> wrote:
>
> Greetings all
> our boat that we are converting to electric power is an Alberg 30. 9000 displacement (until we add our cruising 21'8" water line (when not healed)
> Question is regarding the prop.Since we want to stay with a 2 blade (want to keep the amazing light air performance with the prop hidden behind the full-keel) and can go no bigger than a 13" it was recommended that we go to a 13x12 to replace the current 13x7
> i would love to know what anyone with a simiular sized boat is using
>
> Thanks Richard
>

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Re: [Electric Boats] BP Solar Panels

GET THEM, GET THEM, GET THEM!!!!!!!

You will need a MPPT controller to match up the array voltage to your
battery voltage. Outback makes very nice ones. FM60 and FM80.

Steve Spence
Renewable energy and self sufficiency
http://www.green-trust.org
http://arduinotronics.blogspot.com/

On 08/31/2010 07:46 PM, Michael Brotherton wrote:
>
>
> I recently came in contact with someone who was given 280 BP solar
> panels after
> a gas station dismantled them. They say Pmax 42W, Max System Voltage
> 250v, UL
> Max sys 117V.... He gave me one with a crack in the glass to test out... I
> hooked up a volt meter today (very late in the day so not that much sun)
> and it
> read 80 volts. The cells are enclosed in 2 sheets of glass. I only have
> experience with my 12V panel on my boat and haven't seen a high voltage
> panel
> until now. I guess these were meant for direct grid tie in.
>
> He's selling the panels for $40 each, but if I buy a bunch of them he'll
> let
> them go for $30 each. Just wondering what the groups input was as to
> whether I
> should make the purchase and possible ideas as to what I should do with
> them.
> They are pretty large and from what i've read online have a tendency to
> gather
> moisture in between the glass sheets. I could try to remove the sheet of
> cells
> from the glass and put them in something else.
>
> Any comments or ideas welcome
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike
>
>


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[Electric Boats] 1991 Electra Craft Tri-Hull Sport: Information/Help?

 

Hi. I'll give you a quick bit of background so you know what you're dealing with here. :) I'm the proud "new" owner of a 1991 Electra Craft Tri-Hull sport. I don't know much about boats, and I know about the same amount about this boat's electronics. My dad's an electrical engineer, and he was in town to check out the boat before I bought it. Basically, if I have an issue, I give him a call and he walks me through how to test stuff and what to look for. I'm eager to learn. OK, here are a few of my current questions. If you're able to offer any help, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Does anyone know where I could find schematics for this boat? I've tried calling Electra Craft, but they haven't called me back yet. I've search the Internet, and haven't had any luck.

I'm concerned that my batteries might be lousy. After a full charge with no load, they read (from port to starboard) 6.57, 6.5, 6.16, and 5.89. With a load this drops by about 2-4 tenths of a volt. After running for five minutes I turned the boat off and checked the batteries. I got 6.18,6.16,5.89,5.29. The controls are attached to the two port batteries, which seem to be the best of the four. I'm guessing that someone may have swapped them at some point, which is why the starboard batteries appear to be in worse shape. When I turn the key after a full charge, it sits at about 90%. As soon as I hit the throttle, it drops to the red and shows about 40-45%.

So my battery-related questions are: Are all of the batteries shot? If just two are dead, should I replace those two, or all at once? Should I be concerned about the controls drawing that extra current, or should I just swap the batteries from time to time?

I've also noticed that the belts around the motor appear to be pretty loose. Is this a common thing? Should I have someone that knows what they're doing take a look at them? Would tightening them increase my speed at all?

And this is something for further down the line: Would it be worthwhile to perhaps get a larger propellor or the ring that surronds a propeller? I know that this boat will never go fast, but it doesn't seem to be reaching its potential. It's also a 36v motor that's running off of 24v of batteries -- would I ever want to consider adding two more batteries?

I guess that's about it for now. I realize I don't know squat, but I really would like to learn, and I'm shocked at how little information there is on not only my boat, but electric boats in general.

Again, thanks for any help you might be able to offer.

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[Electric Boats] Props

 

Greetings all
our boat that we are converting to electric power is an Alberg 30. 9000 displacement (until we add our cruising 21'8" water line (when not healed)
Question is regarding the prop.Since we want to stay with a 2 blade (want to keep the amazing light air performance with the prop hidden behind the full-keel) and can go no bigger than a 13" it was recommended that we go to a 13x12 to replace the current 13x7
i would love to know what anyone with a simiular sized boat is using

Thanks Richard

__._,_.___
Recent Activity:
.

__,_._,___

[Electric Boats] BP Solar Panels

 

I recently came in contact with someone who was given 280 BP solar panels after
a gas station dismantled them. They say Pmax 42W, Max System Voltage 250v, UL
Max sys 117V.... He gave me one with a crack in the glass to test out... I
hooked up a volt meter today (very late in the day so not that much sun) and it
read 80 volts. The cells are enclosed in 2 sheets of glass. I only have
experience with my 12V panel on my boat and haven't seen a high voltage panel
until now. I guess these were meant for direct grid tie in.

He's selling the panels for $40 each, but if I buy a bunch of them he'll let
them go for $30 each. Just wondering what the groups input was as to whether I
should make the purchase and possible ideas as to what I should do with them.
They are pretty large and from what i've read online have a tendency to gather
moisture in between the glass sheets. I could try to remove the sheet of cells
from the glass and put them in something else.

Any comments or ideas welcome

Thanks,

Mike

__._,_.___
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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Retrofiting a classic

 

Harry , thanks for your post.
I've only been using about 3 litres a trip , because its winter , and my fishing trips are shorter , and I'm motor sailing , the headsails are helping a lot.
But as the daylight hours get longer , and it gets warmer , I'll spend more time out on the water.
The boat I am looking at buying is an old cray boat style , with a rear wheelhouse , 26 ft , and a gaff rig with electric winch assistance.
It has a 3 cylinder Perkins in it now , of 30 something horsepower , that I suspect has seen a lot of work.
Nanni have hybrid systems available now that I could use , but the lowest HP at this time is about 50 , which is more than I need , probably.
However I have been on a very similar sized motor sailer with a 50 hp Nanni , and it cruised very well .
Just off the top of my head , I'm thinking Nanni hybrid engine , 6 x6 volt batteries , and a couple of solar panels on the wheelhouse.
I couldn't rely on solar panels to keep the batteries charged , if I come in one night on dusk , and go out again the next day at first light , I'm going to need a diesel to push the boat , and recharge the batteries , for a while.
The fishing grounds I'll be venturing out to soon are about 4 hours sailing each way. My current boat carries enough diesel for at least 20 hours motoring , I would expect the new boat (if I buy it) to have a good range too , it carries 200 litres of diesel.
It can get pretty blowy out the way I intend going , I've sailed it a few times , and motored it in the CG boat , and motor sailed it.
Funnily enough , Murphy's law usually means you always have the wind on the nose , but I've been in a "couta" boat surfing the last 20 kms or so here , it was just fantastic !.
If I buy the boat , and go hybrid , I believe I'll have plenty of room for batteries , but obviously , I won't get any more than necessary.
Probably I'm going to have to take the plunge , buy it and use it as it is for a while , see how it changes my fishing habits , and go on from there.
Regards Rob J.


From: Harry Wilkins <harry8136103219@hotmail.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 31 August, 2010 4:20:05 PM
Subject: RE: [Electric Boats] Re: Retrofiting a classic



Rob, 

Life is full of risks.  Our responsibility is to reduce the risks to an acceptable level.  

You say you want a hybrid marine diesel setup, but later say you wont have petrol on-board.  If you want a diesel/electric system along the lines of the Steyr system then you wont need a large battery bank because the diesel can recharge the batteries while it is pushing the boat. 

If you are considering an electric drive that is not a hybrid, there are plenty of choices in electric drives that you can choose that are safer than a fossil fueled ICE. After you pick a motor system, you then need to calculate how many batteries you need to get the range you want.  Off the top of my head, I'm guessing that you will probably WANT a small diesel genset to back-up your battery capacity for those days that you don't sail and have no decent solar power.  Otherwise you run the risk you mentioned of being without electric power when you need it most.  In any event you probably don't have anywhere near enough space to mount the number of solar panels you would need to directly power the boat motor or rapidly recharge the battery bank.  

The usual sticking point is that as long as you have a functioning ICE pushing the boat, it probably doesn't make economic sense to switch to electric drive if you only average 3 liters of fuel per outing.  

Good luck...
Harry Wilkins,
Research Vessel Carpe Sol
www.rvCarpeSol.com
Cell    (813)610-3219
Office (813)968-0788
Fax    (813)792-1162







To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
From: dopeydriver@yahoo.com.au
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 20:01:43 -0700
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Retrofiting a classic

 

I'd really like to have a hybrid marine diesel setup , with some solar panels also.
It would mean , like I have done over the last few weeks , when the arthritis is playing up too much to get the mainsail up , I can motor .
Over 2 hours of motoring , I probably wouldn't use 3 litres of diesel , so its no big deal.
But when I get out to the fishing grounds it would be nice to then switch to electric , and just troll around like I do now .
Trolling in engine mode , well its not as much fun as under sail , but over this winter , I'd only put the main up 1/2 the times I've gone out , and I go out at least once a week , over winter , every second day , or more , in the warmer months.
I won't have petrol or gas on the boat , and all electrical work is done by a very experienced marine electrician.
I work also in the radio room of the volunteer Coastguard , and all of our callouts have been involving petrol engines , fires and explosions , and electrical.
None with diesel engines failing.
Its pretty chilling , to get a "mayday" from a boat way out to sea , after a petrol fumes explosion and fire.
I'd love to have the best of both worlds , diesel , and electric.
My concern though , is we read of these big banks of batteries , and petrol generators , I presume on deck , what happens if they get swamped ?.
One of our last responses was to an epirb , set off by a boat owner after his boat was hit by a rogue wave , and was in real danger of sinking.
No electrics , no way of starting the outboard , no radio , no electric bilge pump.
Could someone please tell us how they have safeguarded against this occurrence ?.
Regards Rob J. 


From: sirdarnell <sirdarnell@yahoo.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 31 August, 2010 11:59:43 AM
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Retrofiting a classic

No one has developed the controller for this in smaller sizes.  Also, I think in small systems the fuel savings don't make up for the costs of the electric drive system.

The trick is to use any excess energy in a useful and needed fashion while keeping the diesel generator running in it's ideal power band, usually 65-85% of full speed (rpms.)  However, a possibility would be a smart battery controller with remote generator start up (you can find these on some websites selling to the off-grid market.)  Assuming you have a good sized house battery so you can sit in a nice anchorage and enjoy nature without a generator constantly running...  Use the house (not starting) battery drive your motor, but have the charge controller automatically turn on the generator when the batteries hit some level, say 50% dept of discharge.  Now if you've an efficient, preferably DC generator, that can provide full power to the charger and the motor, we're set.  When you hear the generator start or see the indicator light come on, if possible, adjust boat speed until the generator is running at 65-80% of maximum rpms.

BTW hybrids are not diesel-electrics or gas-electrics, unless they are what one company calls an extended range electric car.  Since in a diesel-electric system the diesel doesn't attached to the drive train, not even in trains.  (Except one Canadian brand that has diesel/electric hybrid train engine.)

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <ewdysar@...> wrote:
>
> Sid,
>
> You're absolutely correct.  Diesel-electric has been used for many decades and has proven to be more efficient than diesel alone.  But there appears to be a problem of scale.  Do you know of any specific examples of successful diesel-electric vehicles or vessels that weigh less than 100 tons?
>
> Fair winds,
> Eric
> Marina del Rey, CA 
>
> --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "sirdarnell" <sirdarnell@> wrote:
> >
> > I keep seeing this.  The military has been using diesel generators with electric engines since the 1930s (maybe earlier) to get more range.  So it must be work.  Not to mention trains, cruise ships, Ice breakers, freighters, etc.
> >
> > --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Michaels <nov32394@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Unless you are going to supplement the generator with solar and wind or shore power I think you will get less range than by just using a diesel engine.
> > >
> > > Dan
> >
>




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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Retrofiting a classic

 

There are more then a few examples, I will leave it as a google exercise for the truly curious.   The problem is not one of scale but cost.  a generator running at load is simply more efficient then a engine over or under its power band.  Which it would be most of the time boating.  The reason that larger ships almost always use Diesel-electric is that they can afford to spend double on the engines (large generator(s) and electric drives) up front because the boat will be in continuos use and will quickly recoup the cost in gas savings very quickly.  On a pleasure craft few travel enough to recoup the cost in a reasonable time.   


If you are planning on circumnavigating under power,  they make Diesel-electric trawlers, there not cheap.  But they may save you enough in the long run to be worth the cost.  But most pleaser craft are going to sit in a slip for most of there life so not  a good fit. 




On Aug 30, 2010, at 3:32 PM, Eric wrote:

 

Sid,

You're absolutely correct. Diesel-electric has been used for many decades and has proven to be more efficient than diesel alone. But there appears to be a problem of scale. Do you know of any specific examples of successful diesel-electric vehicles or vessels that weigh less than 100 tons?

Fair winds,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "sirdarnell" <sirdarnell@...> wrote:
>
> I keep seeing this. The military has been using diesel generators with electric engines since the 1930s (maybe earlier) to get more range. So it must be work. Not to mention trains, cruise ships, Ice breakers, freighters, etc.
>
> --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Michaels <nov32394@> wrote:
> >
> > Unless you are going to supplement the generator with solar and wind or shore power I think you will get less range than by just using a diesel engine.
> >
> > Dan
>


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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Retrofiting a classic

 

Thanks Kirk.
I have noted your positive ventilation too.
Regards and thanks Rob J.


From: Kirk Grier <kgg@kirkgrier.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 31 August, 2010 5:02:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Retrofiting a classic [3 Attachments]

[Attachment(s) from Kirk Grier included below]

Hi,

Here's some photos of how the 48V bank of 8  6V's are secured in Footloose, my Cal 2-34. The battery box is bolted to the rear bulkhead and is bolted to both the engine stringers and a glassed in support on the hull. The batteries use a watering manifold system that is connected to an external feed. The cover slots down into the box and the rear bulkhead. It is then strapped around the box and cover with cargo load straps. Finally the box is vented via a 12V brushless muffin fan via the old exhaust exit in the transom. The batteries have play in the box laterally which I shim out with wood.

Hope this helps. - Kirk

On 8/30/2010 11:40 PM, Rob Johnson wrote:
 
Dan , I've already explained that I suffer from Arthritis , and some times my hands don't allow me to raise the gaff on my main.
I still have 2 headsails to use , but on those days , I still go out , motoring , using the headsails as steadying sails .
In the future , I may well sell this boat and get something I can sail easier , and set up with hybrid power.
My query is to find out how people are securing batteries etc , with this boat in mind.
Regards Rob J.


From: Daniel Michaels <nov32394@yahoo.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 31 August, 2010 4:18:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Retrofiting a classic



Well the battery bank is supposed to be in an approved enclosed container with a vent. Mine has a vent on the transom 1/2" line more than likely something for the engine. So I have an enclosed box with a vent above the water line. Salt water and batteries do not mix. I used to mix chloride and acid to make Chlorine dioxide for cleaning wells. I found out it works rather well to kill gophers also. As far as a generator on deck I am not sure why you would have one on deck if you have such big waves (Why aren't you sailing at this point). On calm days when you have to motor... The same thing can happen to a gas or diesel engine so I still do not see the point. Splash just a little water on a gas engine and I do not think it will run. My car quits every time I wash it. I guess a water tight bulkhead would come to mind for electrical or gas engines.

Dan

--- On Tue, 8/31/10, Rob Johnson <dopeydriver@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

From: Rob Johnson <dopeydriver@yahoo.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Retrofiting a classic
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 12:40 AM

 
Dan , my question was what do people do to protect their battery bank , or on deck generator from being swamped .
All of the boat owners we have to assist would have done things differently , in hindsight , I'm looking to other peoples foresight .
Regards Rob J.  


From: Daniel Michaels <nov32394@yahoo.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 31 August, 2010 2:04:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Retrofiting a classic



If you have to safe guard against everything to the point that if you leave the house there has to be 100% chance you are going to return you would never be able to leave the house. Further more how safe are you in the house to begin with.

If the boat got swamped by a wave why was the hatch open? Owners fault.
Boats have been sailing for decades without an electrical bilge pump. Why did they not have a manual bilge pump? Owners fault.
No backup battery for the radio or even a handheld. Owners fault.

Pilots hit mountains all the time in airplanes, it is rarely if ever the planes fault or anything to do with the plane. It is almost always pilot error. Same holds true for a ship at sea.

Dan


--- On Mon, 8/30/10, Rob Johnson <dopeydriver@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

From: Rob Johnson <dopeydriver@yahoo.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Retrofiting a classic
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, August 30, 2010, 10:01 PM

 
I'd really like to have a hybrid marine diesel setup , with some solar panels also.
It would mean , like I have done over the last few weeks , when the arthritis is playing up too much to get the mainsail up , I can motor .
Over 2 hours of motoring , I probably wouldn't use 3 litres of diesel , so its no big deal.
But when I get out to the fishing grounds it would be nice to then switch to electric , and just troll around like I do now .
Trolling in engine mode , well its not as much fun as under sail , but over this winter , I'd only put the main up 1/2 the times I've gone out , and I go out at least once a week , over winter , every second day , or more , in the warmer months.
I won't have petrol or gas on the boat , and all electrical work is done by a very experienced marine electrician.
I work also in the radio room of the volunteer Coastguard , and all of our callouts have been involving petrol engines , fires and explosions , and electrical.
None with diesel engines failing.
Its pretty chilling , to get a "mayday" from a boat way out to sea , after a petrol fumes explosion and fire.
I'd love to have the best of both worlds , diesel , and electric.
My concern though , is we read of these big banks of batteries , and petrol generators , I presume on deck , what happens if they get swamped ?.
One of our last responses was to an epirb , set off by a boat owner after his boat was hit by a rogue wave , and was in real danger of sinking.
No electrics , no way of starting the outboard , no radio , no electric bilge pump.
Could someone please tell us how they have safeguarded against this occurrence ?.
Regards Rob J. 


From: sirdarnell <sirdarnell@yahoo.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 31 August, 2010 11:59:43 AM
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Retrofiting a classic

No one has developed the controller for this in smaller sizes.  Also, I think in small systems the fuel savings don't make up for the costs of the electric drive system.

The trick is to use any excess energy in a useful and needed fashion while keeping the diesel generator running in it's ideal power band, usually 65-85% of full speed (rpms.)  However, a possibility would be a smart battery controller with remote generator start up (you can find these on some websites selling to the off-grid market.)  Assuming you have a good sized house battery so you can sit in a nice anchorage and enjoy nature without a generator constantly running...  Use the house (not starting) battery drive your motor, but have the charge controller automatically turn on the generator when the batteries hit some level, say 50% dept of discharge.  Now if you've an efficient, preferably DC generator, that can provide full power to the charger and the motor, we're set.  When you hear the generator start or see the indicator light come on, if possible, adjust boat speed until the generator is running at 65-80% of maximum rpms.

BTW hybrids are not diesel-electrics or gas-electrics, unless they are what one company calls an extended range electric car.  Since in a diesel-electric system the diesel doesn't attached to the drive train, not even in trains.  (Except one Canadian brand that has diesel/electric hybrid train engine.)

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <ewdysar@...> wrote:
>
> Sid,
>
> You're absolutely correct.  Diesel-electric has been used for many decades and has proven to be more efficient than diesel alone.  But there appears to be a problem of scale.  Do you know of any specific examples of successful diesel-electric vehicles or vessels that weigh less than 100 tons?
>
> Fair winds,
> Eric
> Marina del Rey, CA 
>
> --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "sirdarnell" <sirdarnell@> wrote:
> >
> > I keep seeing this.  The military has been using diesel generators with electric engines since the 1930s (maybe earlier) to get more range.  So it must be work.  Not to mention trains, cruise ships, Ice breakers, freighters, etc.
> >
> > --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Michaels <nov32394@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Unless you are going to supplement the generator with solar and wind or shore power I think you will get less range than by just using a diesel engine.
> > >
> > > Dan
> >
>




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--   Kirk Grier kgg@kirkgrier.com 

Attachment(s) from Kirk Grier

3 of 3 Photo(s)


 

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[Electric Boats] Re: Retrofiting a classic

 

Modern Russian subs use nuclear power with steam driven props, just like the US, Britain and almost everyone else with nuclear power. A couple of countries, France is one, use nuclear generators with electric motors. With the huge amount of electricity available to all nuclear subs they use electrolysis to generate oxygen from the water supply which comes from reverse-osmosis of seawater. They also use CO2 scrubbers like those on spacecraft. These craft can stay down deep for a long time. Diesel-electrics have to come to near the surface to use their snorkels for breathing air and air for their diesels.

The old joke used to be the best way to find a US nuclear sub when at dept was to watch for the water boiling behind as it moved at over 50 knots! And the best way to find a Russian sub was with a geiger counter.

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "tartan27hull157" <tartan27hull157@...> wrote:
>
> That's true but it's because the submarine has two important design imperatives which you bring up: the need to run silent and run deep (that is, the ability to run quietly using a fixed and precious supply of oxygen).
>
> The U.S. and a few other navies can afford to solve this problem by putting a nuclear reactor on board, which provides essentially infinite energy and makes everything we all worry about free (not just turns the screw, but also as much hot water, electricity, etc. as you want; and you can just put current across sea water to make O2 for the crew to breathe).
>
> Most other navies can't afford the cost and risk of this installation and so operate diesel-electric boats. The Russians and Germans continue to build some excellent ones.
>
> But all other modern naval vessels commit to operating on the surface so they can make noise, breathe oxygen, and operate radars and aircraft, all of which makes them cheaper and safer to build and operate than submarines, to the extent such things can be safely compared. All these ships all burning something, either by external combustion (boiler or nuke), internal combustion (diesel), or turbofans.
>
> For many of us, quiet is indeed a design imperative, but oxygen is readily available. And, as Eric mentions, most of us operate on a different scale and budget than navies do.
>
> Of course, it's always worth spending an extra buck if someone is going to try to sink you!
>
> I'm not saying the U-boat developments haven't been good and useful for us, just that we should recognize that hybrid systems are built to satisfy some design imperative, not because it's the easiest or most efficient thing to do.
>
> -Paul
>
> --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Q Scott QSK <qskaye@> wrote:
> >
> > Many submarines are Diesel Electric unless they are nukes. Ya know run
> > silent run deep....
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 11:24 AM, sirdarnell <sirdarnell@> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > I keep seeing this. The military has been using diesel generators with
> > > electric engines since the 1930s (maybe earlier) to get more range. So it
> > > must be work. Not to mention trains, cruise ships, Ice breakers, freighters,
> > > etc.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com <electricboats%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > Daniel Michaels <nov32394@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Unless you are going to supplement the generator with solar and wind or
> > > shore power I think you will get less range than by just using a diesel
> > > engine.
> > > >
> > > > Dan
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

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