"we've tolerated this drift long enough", wow now there's a contradiction in terms for you! go home kids, the grownups have more important things to talk about, you run along now.
On 28 May 2013 17:51, "matwete@comcast.net" <matwete@comcast.net> wrote:
Jason is tight. We've tolerated this drift long enough. Continued discussion of etherware on this list runs the risk of losing one's posting privileges.
-Moderator
BTW, this group now has over 5000 closed minded members, mot 3841. We owe them some quiet time...
From my HTC Sensation 4G on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network----- Reply message -----
From: "Jason Taylor" <jt.yahoo@jtaylor.ca>
To: "electricboats@yahoogroups.com" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: "electricboats@yahoogroups.com" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Electric Boats] "Batteries Not Included"
Date: Tue, May 28, 2013 5:13 am
Hi James,A lot of what you are asking from the group is actually not the kid of stuff that is suited to this list. This is about electric boats and moving boats with electrons. You are asking (and increasingly chiding) the list into providing or helping you with methods of producing these electrons. What you are putting together is a floating research project. The more systems you cram in there, the less "boat" will remain. Since the data is lacking why not try to produce some yourself, and then share your details, as in any properly defined scientific experiment. But again, the place for sharing these details is not this list. Most of us are here to discuss electric boats, not primary research into electric power generation methods. Any valid, useful comments and suggestions you have received are from people with a common interest or professional knowledge in that area, however this isn't the list in which to share it. I suggest you take this conversation off-list since many of the 3841 members of this list have reached the end of their peripheral interest and (at least myself and a few others) are tiring of seeing your messages scolding us for being closed minded. We're not. We just don't see what this has to do with moving our boats with electricity.Even when people talk about "accepted" power generation and storage methods that fall outside of existing commercially available products (such as new battery chemistries, the eestor super capacitors, etc), the conversation threads quickly drift away from the purpose of this group. The onus is now actually on you to go and get your numbers (experimental setup description, specific power for your proposed systems, etc) and come back to the appropriate list (ie: not ElectricBoats) with useful data. The systems you are discussing and proposing are not yet at the point of leaving the lab let alone being fitted into a boat that is intended to serve a purpose other than house some experiential power systems. When your tinkering has produced significant power for moving your boat, then come back to the list with your information and many of these same closed minded people will be fascinated and interested in what you have to say.The list has been quite opening and civil to this point. But you're not using this list for its strengths and are complaining about how disappointing it is to not get the information you're after/JasonHere is an interesting link I found on the web.
Extracting energy from salt water
http://www.greenivative.com//index.cfm?&referer_id=838
Here's another http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZfsWwrivec
I wonder how many of you will say this doesn't work?
It seems similar to something in diagram... not exact but similar.
--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Julian Webb <julian.proto@...> wrote:
>
> James
>
> - At the risk of saying "I told you so", any proof you offer here will be
> discounted without regard, as the educated critics will know without
> looking, that the proof you offered must be fake,
> - For anybody to dimiss something that they have no personal experience or
> knowledge of is of course unscientific but those who "know" what will work
> and what won't, will call their close minded responses...........
> scientific.
>
> - Now you will have learned what's "acceptable" to talk about and what's
> not, you should be able work out the topics you will benefit from by
> posting here.
>
> - By now you should have been to the websites that specialise in the sorts
> of topics that have drawn unconstructive input here? If not do so now.
> There's advice, test reports, real world testing with figures etc and their
> not trying to sell you anything.
>
> Julian
>
>
>
> On 24 May 2013 17:19, james4078 <james4078@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > I'm a little perplexed to the thinking of some of you reading and
> > contributing to this stimulating subject.
> > Perpetual Motion
> > Creating energy
> > Laws of thermo-dynamics
> > Unicorns and Magic
> > I spoke of none of these yet some of you interpret what you are reading in
> > your own way.
> > I have received 3 useful pieces information the rest is just people
> > spewing their own ignorance to topics they cannot admit they know nothing
> > about or do not understand.
> > I have admitted there is one energy source that I am attempting to use
> > that I do not fully understand... The deliverance circuit.
> > Everything else is verifiable, it is the missing usable data I am after. I
> > am not looking to discover anything that is not already there. I just want
> > to expand on it and use it.
> > If you have no useful comments to contribute then please keep your
> > opinions to yourself.
> >
> > Thanks you
> >
> > James
> >
> > --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "cire" <cirejay@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Oh ye of little faith:-).
> > >
> > > eric SV Meander
> >
> > >
> > > --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Roger L" <rogerlov@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Well, add this old-time traditional engineer to the group who finds
> > the Perpetual Motion Clubsters to be an interesting lot - at least some of
> > the time. Why not? After all, anyone who reads a bit of modern quantum
> > mechanics is already at least half way to never-never land.
> > > >
> > > > A new friend who came over to dinner at our place the other night
> > turned out to be a fully fledged member of the PM Club. While he talked,
> > what began to fascinate me was not his opinions as much as a sudden
> > realization that the way he presented his opinions sounded so familiar. In
> > fact, even the cadence of his argument and the posture of his presentation
> > struck me as being surprisingly similar to other perpetual motion/free
> > energy proponents I've heard and read over the years. Is deja vu the same
> > as magic? And why do they believe in PM anyway?
> > > >
> > > > Now I wish I'd asked him that very question. Maybe next time.
> > > > Roger L.
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Carter Quillen
> > > > To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 11:27 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] "Batteries Not Included"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Well this post might not make me any new friends but when it comes to
> > the rotoverter, I'm not ashamed to be the guy "who dares to be stupid
> > enough to say that they are"... SNAKE OIL.
> > > >
> > > > I don't want to dampen anyone's enthusiasm for exploring the unknown
> > but some things are what some things are so why waste your time chasing
> > unicorns when there are some seriously fat cows that really are out there
> > waiting to be slaughtered. Maybe the better question should be: Do you
> > believe in magic?
> > > > I do not.
> > > >
> > > > I don't believe we get to break the laws of thermodynamic in this
> > plane of existence and I'm not ashamed to say it. You can game them six
> > ways to Sunday, but you don't get to flat out break them and that's what
> > the rotoverter claims to do.
> > > >
> > > > Here's a simple example of what I'm talking about: Paraphasing the
> > second law of thermodynamics, "Energy flows from hot to cold and the rate
> > at which it travels is proportional to the difference in temperature." On
> > the surface, the ordinary refrigerator appears to break this law by
> > removing heat from the freezer which is cold and making it flow into the
> > room, which is hot, exactly opposite of the 2nd law. Although this seems to
> > contradict the second law of thermodynamics, it really doesn't and I won't
> > bore everyone with an explanation of the how and why but my point is that
> > this system only "appears" to break the laws of nature, it actually
> > doesn't.
> > > >
> > > > The rotoverter, as advertized on the internet, is a perpetual motion
> > machine, modern day snake oil at it's best but, like unicorns, it doesn't
> > exist. Maybe if you built one with superconductive windings and flooded it
> > in liquid nitrogen, then configured it to somehow be harmonic or resonant
> > with the natural frequency of the universe to absorb cosmic radiation, who
> > knows,maybe you could capture some mystery energy from somewhere but the
> > energy has to come from somewhere, you don't get to "create" it. And that's
> > not just my opinion, it is supported by hundreds of years of empirical
> > data. There are many unsolved mysteries in this world but the "rotoverter"
> > is not one of them. From everything I know about it, which admittedly is
> > somewhat limited, it is just a brilliant and lucrative gimmick. I would
> > welcome anyone to actually prove me wrong on that though.
> > > >
> > > > I am certainly NOT someone "who is arrogant enough to state that they
> > know all energies and their manifestations that our universe has to offer",
> > but I'm pretty confident I know snake oil when I see it.
> > > >
> > > > Rather than wasting his time on the rotoverter, I would challenge
> > James to work on figuring out a way to make a solar collector that is 50%
> > efficient instead of 14%. That innovation would make the typical solar
> > canopy put out 3 times more energy and at 50% eff. it doesn't even come
> > close to violating any physical laws of nature.
> > > >
> > > > Or perhaps cobble together a simple and innovative electric drive
> > system that can be easily and cost effectively adapted to some of these old
> > boats that are just sitting around wasting away. That transom extension he
> > came up with looks like a good start on that idea.
> > > >
> > > > These type of things are doable. "Creating" energy is not.
> > > >
> > > > As I've said before, I think he's on to something with his idea of
> > retrofitting old boats with alterative energy drives systems. But I also
> > believe he has a better chance for success if he forgets about trying to
> > use a unicorn... errr "rotoverter" in his designs.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Carter Quillen, P.E.
> > > > http://www.shipofimagination.com/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: Julian Webb <julian.proto@>
> > > > To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 5:11 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] "Batteries Not Included"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi Willie
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - I'm not meaning to be rude with this next sentence, but if you "try"
> > something and do it incorrectly it doesn't mean the theory is not right, it
> > means you're not, and worse you're going o become a wonderful validator for
> > the "I told you so" brigade.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - If you tried to make something as simple as a blender without the
> > correct plans or help how successful do you think it would be? That should
> > not mean the concept of a blender was wrong or that we should stick to
> > knives.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - As I said, although I haven't tried the Roto-Verter, I know simply
> > hooking a motor to a generator and hoping one will run the other is not the
> > way that you're supposed to do it, so no surprises that it didn't work for
> > you.
> > > > - I'm not saying it does work, just from the very little I've heard
> > there's a bit more to it than that.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - Electrolysis is something I got involved in, as a friend of mine,
> > tried it, same results as you, asked for help, got laughed at and lectured
> > and had laws quoted at him to prove it is impossible to get more gas energy
> > out than electrical energy in (to keep it simple) and by those laws it
> > didn't work.
> > > > - Because I had an R&D company and did product development and had
> > meters, scopes etc and was used to setting up a logical test program he
> > asked me to have a look and see if there was anything he had done that was
> > obviously wrong. There wasn't, not by the basic splitting of water stuff I
> > (and all of us) had been taught in high school.
> > > > - I read the blurb that he had bought on line and it mentioned
> > something that pinged my imagination, and something that as he had no
> > experience in such things, did not consider to be important.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - With the experience I had had in pump systems, I had seen mechanical
> > resonance at it's best and worst and fully appreciated that a small amount
> > of energy input can produce a disproportionate amount of energy appearing
> > in a system if the parameters are right, and I don't mean by simple
> > hydraulic multiplication.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - I have also built an induction heater and have pondered the ability
> > (of a close coupled coil to load system) to achieve roughly 5 times the
> > heating effect of a resistive electrical heating system drawing the same
> > current. Of course, this too is "not possible" and yet anyone can buy or
> > make one and if built and operated properly can get the same results.
> > > > - These of course use an electrically resonant circuit.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - To cut a long story short unless the importance of electrical and
> > mechanical resonance in systems is appreciated, (which has no place,
> > constant or symbol in any traditional calculations or formulas that I have
> > ever seen) they cannot be understood or replicated.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - Once we made (after a lot more reading) a system that paid attention
> > to those details we trebled the gas output which was over the theoretical
> > using "normal" calculations, and as I understand it there are ways (untried
> > by me) of preparing the metal tubes that increases output even further.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - Just because a few snake oil salesmen jumped on bandwagons and sold
> > devices that didn't live up to their over-the-top claims doesn't mean that
> > the whole idea is wrong, just that they are.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - Just because Mythbusters buys a shonky DIY kit/plans and also make
> > it improperly without understanding what they're doing also doesn't mean
> > that the whole idea is wrong, just that they are.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - If we don't understand what we're doing we need someone around who
> > can steer us in the right direction, help or teach us, but if that topic is
> > slightly outside mainstream you'll get nothing positive, and surely anyone
> > who is inquisitive and curious enough to want to try something should be
> > encouraged, as who knows what they might come up with.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - So much has been discovered, even in out time, by people doing what
> > they shouldn't, usually in desperation as all the things they should have
> > done had produced nothing.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Cheers
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 23 May 2013 01:03, stmbtwle <stmbtwle@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > James when I was a teenager I built a "rotoverter" out of a couple 3v
> > electric motors. I coupled the shafts together so one motor would spin the
> > other as a generator (DC motors can be used as generators) then I wired
> > them together so the generator output would drive the motor, which would
> > spin the generator, which would drive the motor, which would spin the
> > generator, and so on. Then I ran it up to speed with a couple dry cells to
> > get it started, and removed the batteries. It kept running.... for a few
> > seconds. Electrical resistance, heat and friction killed it. I tried the
> > electrolysis thing too, with a piece of aluminum and a piece of copper in
> > sea water; that worked just about as well. Nikolai Tesla (a whole lot
> > smarter than I am) tried the "radiant energy" thing. From what I understand
> > it had promise but you have to have a transmitter (which requires fuel) and
> > the whole thing is horribly inefficient. To be honest I think you'd have
> > better luck with Magick.
> > > >
> > > > There IS a "radiant energy" system that DOES work and it's well
> > proven; I have three; one actually drives one of my boats. Another keeps
> > the lights on and the beer cold on my houseboat. Some people call it
> > "solar", but you could also call it "fusion". The gods provide the radiant
> > energy, you just collect it all week and store it in a battery, to be used
> > when you want to play.
> > > >
> > > > My suggestion: Find an old aluminum pontoon boat (they're big, light,
> > and don't require much power). Strip it down and build a rack overhead that
> > will hold as many solar panels as you can fit within the dimensions of the
> > boat. Install enough batteries to run your motor for a reasonable time,
> > hook the panels up and park it in the sun for a week. By Saturday you'll
> > have your "radiant energy boat". Some paint and foo-foo and you'll have a
> > nifty rig that actually WORKS. Mine does; it's just a canoe with a trolling
> > motor, but I haven't had to paddle or charge the batteries since I
> > installed my "energy collector". I just park it in the sun, and it's ready
> > to go when I am.
> > > >
> > > > Even the Wright Brothers did things one step at a time, and they were
> > ultimately successful.
> > > >
> > > > Willie
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com, "james4078" <james4078@>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for your input guys
> > > > > If history teaches us anything it is truly that there is an answer
> > to any and all questions, no matter how difficult they may be.
> > > > > Perpetual motion is not something I'm looking to do.
> > > > > I'm just trying to harness the energy that is there and funnel it to
> > be usable for my situation.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > --- In mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com, Carter Quillen
> > <twowheelinguy@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have to agree with your contention to round file the perpetual
> > motion stuff but you can push a boat at pretty close to hull speed realtime
> > off the sun with a full solar canopy. Despite a looong list of
> > inefficiencies such as a shunt motor, lead acid batteries, spinning a big
> > diesel driveline including a V-drive, and a 20 ton displacement, the Arc
> > still works pretty good. Better than I thought it would actually.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > With lighter hulls, better motors, and elimination of the extra
> > driveline components you have in a parallel hybrid configuration, solar
> > powered boats can perform very well. This has been demostrated by a lot of
> > other solar boats besides the Arc too.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > While James may be a bit sidetracked on a unicorn hunt, his basic
> > idea of retrofitting old broken boats with alternative energy drive systems
> > is sound. It does work and the idea of a never ending gas tank is very
> > appealing. The techology only keeps getting better and I think you will be
> > seeing a lot more solar electric boats on the water in the future.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Carter
> > > > > > http://www.shipofimagination.blogspot.com/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > From: stmbtwle <stmbtwle@>
> > > >
> > > > > > To: mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 8:28 AM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] "Batteries Not Included"
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sorry James but I have to agree with Julian. Have you done the
> > math? If you want to charge your batteries by plugging into shore power you
> > may have a nice electric boat, but you won't be able to fit enough solar
> > panels or a big enough windmill to provide the power you need.
> > "Rotoverter", "Ambient energy", "Radiant energy", "Electrolytic energy" all
> > go in the same file with "Perpetual Motion".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Folks don't like to think about it, but there's a REASON our
> > electric utilities haven't already switched over to those devices.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Willie
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com, "james4078"
> > <james4078@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks for the words of wisdom.
> > > > > > > I have a few emails that I would rather soon forget but that
> > comes with the territory.
> > > > > > > I was kind of hoping to get a better reaction from this group
> > than some of the others.
> > > > > > > With 3845 members you would think that most would like to get
> > some new information on a project such as this.
> > > > > > > Well I will be glad to hear from you and as always do what you
> > can when you can.
> > > > > > > Thanks for the help
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > James
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com, Julian Webb
> > <julian.proto@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > hi james
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > - just had a read of your crowd funding page, and my first
> > piece of advice
> > > > > > > > is to be very careful of your wording there, here and
> > everywhere.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > - i'm not sure what your actual energy
> > source/plan/generating/harnessing
> > > > > > > > ideas are but unless you want to be written off, ridiculed,
> > abused or at
> > > > > > > > best condescendingly lectured to, don't ever use the word
> > "energy" in the
> > > > > > > > same sentence with other words such as "alternative",
> > "unlimited" or heaven
> > > > > > > > forbid "free".
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > - irrespective of what you meant, it will be assumed you that
> > you have
> > > > > > > > either never heard of newton or maxwell or you just didn't get
> > it, and you
> > > > > > > > will incur the wrath of educated non-thinkers who are so eager
> > to show what
> > > > > > > > they learned at school that they won't wait to ask you the how
> > or what of
> > > > > > > > what you meant or are doing but will trip over themselves at
> > the
> > > > > > > > opportunity make themselves sound smart by making you sound
> > stupid.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > - open minded, unbiased, ego free help with anything "a bit
> > different" is
> > > > > > > > hard to find and if i can be of any help please email me on
> > > > > > > > everhopeful@ and if i can't i'll try to point you somewhere
> > that
> > > > > > > > can.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > cheers
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On 19 May 2013 03:53, james4078 <james4078@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > **
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Greetings from Florida everyone.
> > > > > > > > > I've been a member of this group for some time now and I try
> > to help out
> > > > > > > > > when I can.
> > > > > > > > > Now I am asking for all your help.
> > > > > > > > > As there is not much technical data available for us
> > electric boaters I am
> > > > > > > > > assembling a project that will provide much needed data.
> > > > > > > > > I have been working alone on this for close to 3 years and
> > now I want to
> > > > > > > > > get it finished and create a data bank of some sort for all
> > electric boater
> > > > > > > > > out there.
> > > > > > > > > Here is a link to our crowd funding project, once done all
> > data will be
> > > > > > > > > readily available "open source"
> > > > > > > > >
> > http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/alternative-energy-source--2/x/3222114
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I will also be looking for some technical expertise for
> > those that want to
> > > > > > > > > offer that.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks again
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > James
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > project #2
> > > > > > > > >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/photos/album/547817076/pic/list
> > > > > > > > > project #1
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/photos/album/1200862879/pic/list
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > It has been too long between projects
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > http://www.proto.eu.com/ ltd
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > unit 9 Somerton Industrial Estate, Belfast, BT3 9JP, U.K.
> > > > > > > > Phone; (+44) 02895 811251 - Mobile; (+44) 07427 696 796 - Fax;
> > > > > > > > (+44) 0871 9898296
> > > > > > > > Company number; NI067673 VAT number; GB975375474
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > http://www.proto.eu.com/ ltd
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > unit 9 Somerton Industrial Estate, Belfast, BT3 9JP, U.K.
> > > > Phone; (+44) 02895 811251 - Mobile; (+44) 07427 696 796 - Fax; (+44)
> > 0871 9898296
> > > > Company number; NI067673 VAT number; GB975375474
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> www.proto.eu.com ltd
>
> unit 9 Somerton Industrial Estate, Belfast, BT3 9JP, U.K.
> Phone; (+44) 02895 811251 - Mobile; (+44) 07427 696 796 - Fax;
> (+44) 0871 9898296
> Company number; NI067673 VAT number; GB975375474
>
| Reply via web post | Reply to sender | Reply to group | Start a New Topic | Messages in this topic (78) |
No comments:
Post a Comment